# Hello from Carber Energetics!

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#### Mike Haberer

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I don't think Drones are a good example.

Drones can be bought by anyone, and flown by anyone (and usually soon after the batteries are charged!). The main "regulations" issue was from a bunch of wahoos who fly them where they shouldn't: Airports, over military bases, over prisons, etc.. And the fact many think of them as a 'toy'.. Grand-ma can buy one for her grand son (and who happens to be the local thug, for whatever reason), so he flies it as he sees fit, disregarding any sense of decency or courtesy.
I respectfully disagree. The reason we need rules, regulations and laws is because there is a sizable percentage of human beings that are neither decent nor courteous. If everyone followed the golden rule no rules, regulations or laws would be needed. It's just the reality of things.

It doesn't matter that anyone can buy a drone vs. a HP rocket and fly it. The reality of drones is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. The reality of HP rockets is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. It all comes down to safety. NAR and then Tripoli were there at the beginnings of HP Rocketry, so were able to manage the growth, with difficulty. The ATF lawsuit case is the key example. When the feds get it in their minds to get in your way it's hard to counter. NAR and Tripoli took a big financial risk in fighting the ATF in court. The facts won at the end of the day, but it was never a sure thing. One or two bad instances of rocketry mishaps could draw the Feds attention again. I do trust that Tripoli and NAR will get it right at the end of the day (regarding HEI), but caution and vigilance are a constant requirement.

As regards this entire thread, no one is doubting the value HEI would provide, we're simply seeking answers to reasonable questions. Getting snarky, cock-sure responses is annoying at best, insulting at worst. Assuming HEI gets approved and certified, I'll make a sizable wager (case of beer, winners choice) that they would still need to be assembled at an away cell. That means the the average L2 flyer that flies JKL single stage rockets won't likely be a buyer, especially if they already have an investment in AT, Loki or Cesaroni hardware. That would require Carber Energetics SU motors to be cheaper than reloads, which would be a tall order, unless they don't care about profits. If that's the case then we all ought to be worried that such a business model could drive existing motor vendors over a bankruptcy cliff.

This is then, likely, a niche market for multi-stage air-starts (single stage clustered air-starts are quite manageable with existing components within existing rules and regs). That's a small subset of the flying community, which makes me wonder how the motors can be made cheaply without volume sales. Would love to see the business plan and profitability forecast based on sales volume.

##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
Look - Let's be honest - the integrated ignitor is a fantastic idea, and a true innovation and achievement. I commend you.

However, It won't fly with the current regulations.

So make your motors standard ignition, and get them approved & sell them to us, OK?

#### Walter Longburn

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I figure this motor is probably 54mm? If so do you mind sharing the motor dimensions? If you'd rather wait till motor release that's fine. I'm currently working on 54mm 2 stage project and if this motor is 54mm I want to make sure I build it so it fits.

#### dr wogz

##### Fly caster
I respectfully disagree. The reason we need rules, regulations and laws is because there is a sizable percentage of human beings that are neither decent nor courteous. If everyone followed the golden rule no rules, regulations or laws would be needed. It's just the reality of things.

It doesn't matter that anyone can buy a drone vs. a HP rocket and fly it. The reality of drones is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. The reality of HP rockets is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. It all comes down to safety. NAR and then Tripoli were there at the beginnings of HP Rocketry, so were able to manage the growth, with difficulty. The ATF lawsuit case is the key example. When the feds get it in their minds to get in your way it's hard to counter. NAR and Tripoli took a big financial risk in fighting the ATF in court. The facts won at the end of the day, but it was never a sure thing. One or two bad instances of rocketry mishaps could draw the Feds attention again. I do trust that Tripoli and NAR will get it right at the end of the day (regarding HEI), but caution and vigilance are a constant requirement.

As regards this entire thread, no one is doubting the value HEI would provide, we're simply seeking answers to reasonable questions. Getting snarky, cock-sure responses is annoying at best, insulting at worst. Assuming HEI gets approved and certified, I'll make a sizable wager (case of beer, winners choice) that they would still need to be assembled at an away cell. That means the the average L2 flyer that flies JKL single stage rockets won't likely be a buyer, especially if they already have an investment in AT, Loki or Cesaroni hardware. That would require Carber Energetics SU motors to be cheaper than reloads, which would be a tall order, unless they don't care about profits. If that's the case then we all ought to be worried that such a business model could drive existing motor vendors over a bankruptcy cliff.

This is then, likely, a niche market for multi-stage air-starts (single stage clustered air-starts are quite manageable with existing components within existing rules and regs). That's a small subset of the flying community, which makes me wonder how the motors can be made cheaply without volume sales. Would love to see the business plan and profitability forecast based on sales volume.

we're saying the same thing. I was just pointing out that drone rules came along due to people not knowing any better, and the need to better regulate their use. hence teh 'government intervention'. Rocketry (especially HPR) is a very niche hobby, and we already have rules & regs in place. Like "CE" we are self regulating. Flaunting them would only invite more scrutiny. Drones, on the other hand, have no such foundation.

Now, drones vs. the .60 sized P-51 (scratch or Top flight kit, your choice! ) is again, the same sort of example. Granny will buy the drone for Timmy, but won't buy the plane kit.. the plane has it's own set of rules & established "safety" foundation..

#### jsdemar

##### Well-Known Member
JSDEMAR. I have to admit. That looks very impressive. Plenty of gas and particles which is what it takes to light a motor. Are you saying the formula is a half gram of each boron, viton, potassium nitrate?
The ratio by weight for B : KNO3 : V is 25 : 60 : 15.

The photo was 0.5 g of BKNO3-V dipped on an e-match. It will start using a 1-ohm nichrome head also. That size if good for J/K/L.

The Rocketry Forum has a restricted section where things like this may be discussed in detail.

#### Mike Haberer

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
This to CPU TOMMY. Thanks for YOUR positive remarks.

Now let me say something about pricing. While it's not set in stone, you can expect our prices to be, on average, HALF of what you're' paying currently. Perhaps less on certain motors. Especially on larger motors.

As an example. A competitor that offers an "L" class motor, sells for approximately $260. Our "NEW" upgraded L-911 will come in around half that price. I checked and his propellant weight was just over 3 pounds which is almost identical to ours. And while I cannot guarantee that price, I can tell you that it will be someplace close. Our motor may be a little higher in price OR a little lower. Wait and see! OK, so let's play the game (just can't resist the challenge). L class motors in the L-911 range with roughly three pounds of propellant would (likely) be one f the following: Cesaroni 2771L990 -$173
AT L1090W (RMS)- $189 AT L1000W (DMS)-$216

The prices are the best prices found online today. The highest price I saw was $240 for the AT L1000W DMS, no$260 amongst the trio. Comparing apples to apples, then, would be to compare to the AT L1000W, which is SU. $130 would indeed be a great price, but since the "around half the price" isn't a guarantee, we'll just have to "wait and see". At$160 the price wouldn't likely a showstopper for continuing to use AT and unlikely to persuade a Cesaroni flyer to switch, not for a single stage rocket when HEI requires a different launch configuration from the existing ass-end igniter hook-ups every club has in place.

#### don carter

If you’re buying reloadables don’t you have to pay for the hardware? We’re not comparing apples and oranges fellers. Compare MY single use motor to my competitors same L size. That’s all I ask.

##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
Can I purchase one right now? THAT is comparing apples to apples

#### SecondRow

##### Well-Known Member
Not if you already own the hardware. Those customers will be comparing reloadable prices against your SU price. People that don’t have the hardware might compare the cost of the hardware, but they can amortize it over the total number of flights they plan to have.

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
@don carter

Your welcome, I unlike some here have an opinion. Mine is a bit louder due to me being a self confessed dick.

If your offering me a motor that will fit into my rockets at HALF the price, count me all in. If this motor can solve the 2 stage issues then im not only all in, ill be your best buddy.. there are 3 motor vendors, CTI, AT and LOKI, (im leaving Estes out on purpose) all 3 have great motors and I currently have A few thousands in motors from AT and CTI.
I have nothing but respect for both vendors and I love each. A NEW motor vendor that comes here and offers a new choice and potentially a revolution that allows more people the chance to fly bigger rockets then im all in up to my a.. more people launching bigger motors = more fun

The sport of model rocketry and us flying rockets sure won't grow with out innovation.

We currently have gps, we have K.A.T.E. chute releases. 20 years ago..we had nothing... the sport has to grow and some people just refuse to change. All things that moved our sport to where it is today, I for one have no desire to go backwards.

Being the high power "police guy". I say..keep building motors!!!!

The people who are negative Nellies ARE NOT YOUR CUSTOMERS, they are the people who don't build anything over an 18mm motor mount, to these people a D Motor is just to powerful.. maybe it hurts there ears or something..let them complain and cry about nothing but there own feelings.. safe spots were designed for some of the crying babys..

Respectfully
"The Dude"

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#### don carter

So, let me get this straight. If you own the hardware, you can reuse it several times over and over. Providing NOTHING goes wrong. Right? How many flights do you have to have in order to recover your initial investment? And after that, you're just buying the propellant. Right? But how much is the hardware? What are you paying for an L type motor hardware? Just curious? And if you "ding" it or break it or harm it in some way, you're going to be buying a new one aren't you? Just saying. Whereas if you buy one of my single use motors, that's IT. Look, I'm not knocking my potential competitors. I just know this. Back when I was making motors in the 80s and 90s, I knew what they were charging, and it wasn't pretty. And when we came on line with our low cost, no frills motors, we created a firestorm! It'll be that way again. I can assure you...

#### don carter

But NO reloadables. Simple single use motors. Put 'em in your rocket, fly 'em, take 'em out, put another one in and fly again. For probably half the price of what's you're currently paying. FUN, FUN, FUN!!

#### don carter

How much are you paying for a reloadable L motor grain/grains?

TRF Supporter

#### tsmith1315

##### Well-Known Member
My hardware was paid for 25 years ago. So, I look at a cost-to-fly-today comparison. Maybe that's not fair, but with a limited budget it's just where I'm at. Odds are good there are plenty more in the same boat.

CTI will help with hardware cost on a cert flight (free case), and if you choose that motor wisely, a few extra bucks in spacers will leave you with a nice array of reloads to fly in the future from with a minimal investment. If I wanted something new, an upcoming L2 cert flight could be a good time to add variety.

The game has changed a bit since the 90's. Now, there is a great variety of motor choices, lots of fun propellants. This ain't fireworks, but make no mistake- it IS entertainment and fun propellants are alluring. I'm not saying you need to up your propellant game, simply that's what your competition is doing.

Good deal for a single use L at $130.00 if it can be done. That was the price on sale 26+ years ago for their L900. ACS_Catalog.pdf (oldrocketplans.com) #### PayLoad ##### I don't do spirals TRF Supporter ... Just please come down a level. I promise, this isn't nearly as exciting for us as it is for you, since no sellable motors actually exist. This fervor should be saved for when cold, hard answers are available and motors are released. That's when you'll see people here get excited. ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ #### don carter ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor SEE!! Our L-900 was less than$130! And most likely, it will be close to that price again!!

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