• Have you entered ???
    LAUNCH LAB ROCKETRY GIVEAWAY

Hello from Carber Energetics!

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

Status
Not open for further replies.

boatgeek

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
3,366
Reaction score
1,903
Again.. I ask..

why are we not welcoming a new motor vendor with open arms?

The people batching about the ignightor and NFPA are the same people who will never buy any motor more powerful than a C. These are the same people that complain that Estes doesn't have a replacement nose cone for a 35 year old rocket and if Estes DID have the nose cone for 5 dollars they would complain about the price. A huge majority of the people whom are in rocketry are cheap to the point of pathetic baby whining. Dont even respond to them, tell them to purchase a motor FIRST before they cry about the "ignightor installation before the rocket is on the rail.. oooops.. the baby's are the one who don't use the rails.. ask them if they use the 1010 rail..

I EAGERLY await the power plant options. Ive spent my fair share of money on motors, and yes I use rails...

Keep up the great work !!

Tom
While I mostly fly F-I, I've flown K and L. I don't think I've ever complained about the price of anything in this hobby*. I would love to have another HPR motor manufacturer in the market.

The igniter issue isn't important to me for NFPA rules. It's important to me because before I buy** I need to know that I can fly the motor. My local club has a rule that igniters for G power and above are inserted at the pad except by special permission by the RSO for motors where you can't do that. Will I need to ask the RSO every time I want to fly this motor? That's kind of a pain and takes away time that I could be prepping and flying another rocket. My time at a launch is precious--I don't get to go to many HPR launches.

The negativity issue is important to me because I already have a motor vendor who stands behind their product. If asking reasonable questions about how this new whiz-bang (whiz-whoosh?) product works results in a lot of namecalling plus Godwin, I don't have confidence that the vendor will stand behind their product if I need to make a warranty claim. Plus this is supposed to be fun. I choose to do business with people who are good to do business with. I have enough difficult working relationships with vendors at work.

Maybe this is a series of motors ideally suited for BALLS and other high altitude flying. Cool, no problem, not for me, and a reasonable*** business plan. If it's intended to go to the vast majority of clubs out there, though, sometime we'll need a clear description of how this all works. Maybe you load the motor, go through RSO, put the rocket on the rail, slide the motor out, patch an igniter on the top, and slide it all back together again. That's a little hassle, but totally reasonable for most people who are flying K-O motors.

Now I'll just stand back and watch the fur fly. If this puts me on a do not sell list, then so be it.

* It's for fun. If I can't afford the cost of the fun, I should be doing different fun.

** Yes I know we're a long way from buying.

*** Though I would wonder why they were giving up the sales of all of the local clubs...
 

PayLoad

I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
553
Reaction score
644
Location
Orefield, PA
Details needed - Curves, Price, availability. However, the-rocket-store will sell the living Sh&& out of them.
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
Johnly, we are coming to the NAR to have our motors tested.

Thundercloud, you're a man after my own heart!! Yes, it's been years ago since we were Reaction Labs. MANY years ago. We're now CARBER ENERGETICS. I think you'll like us just the same. Our prices are going to be low just like they once were. We're going to make sure that our customers are happy with our motors and our prices.
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
I can answer one question for y'all. No, we haven't begun the certification process. However, I can assure you our motors will be certified. I have an ATF explosives manufacturers license. Otherwise I couldn't buy AP from American Pacific, or HTPB from Cray Valley. Or boron from the company I buy from or the spherical aluminum I purchase from. Need I go on? IF I didn't have my explosives manufacturers license from the ATF, I couldn't buy ANY of these chemicals that I make my propellant with. So, we're on the level, and we'll have our motors certified I can promise you that. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to sell them would we? Nope!

We make motors for professional applications as well. Not just amateurs/hobbyists. Just as we did back in the 80s.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,069
Reaction score
1,226
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
You too should know the need for "fit for purpose". The only way to know if something is fit for purpose is to have information about it. Until Don confirmed the HEI system as planned would exit the forward bulkhead, we only knew planned motor ranges of K-O, not even casing sizes.

As long as it's a certified motor, I'll give it a go but it has to be certified and that means it has to follow NFPA limitations.
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
IF we see a need for smaller motors, we'll fill that need. I think you're going to find that our larger motors, will be priced so low that you can afford them. Once again I say, give us a chance. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!!
 

Sandy H.

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
654
Reaction score
100
. . .
3. Neither NFPA nor Tripoli Safety Codes prohibit head end ignition. The challenge has always been how to follow NFPA requirements not to install the ignition device until the right time and at the right place. The certification agencies are not going to allow something to slip through that will endanger rocketry.
. . .
Just curious, delete if not a valid question in this thread: Would the concept of the manufacturer implementing a dead-short in the igniter from the factory that gets severed at the pad by 'pushing a clip' in and it 'snapping in place' likely be acceptable to the NAR/TRA/NFPA rules? Think the opposite of the little stickers they put on batteries when they ship them installed in a product, basically - you pull the sticker out and then the thing is 'live' but not before.

I know 'back in the day' people would twist their igniter leads together, install them in the motors and walk them to the pad - assume E-F-G for this random memory, not big stuff, as that may never have been acceptable. I imagine the issue with doing this isn't technical, as it seems pretty valid, but it is procedural - i.e. if you don't do it (or don't do it right), you could have a problem.

Anyway, I was mostly curious if the concept of a manufacturer supplied dead-short igniter would be possibly acceptable or if it is still 100% not acceptable for some reason and what that reason would be. I easily accept that there is/could be a valid reason and I'd like to be more educated.

Sandy.
 

cbrarick

Wildman CT
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
2,607
Reaction score
325
Again.. I ask..

why are we not welcoming a new motor vendor with open arms?

The people batching about the ignightor and NFPA are the same people who will never buy any motor more powerful than a C. . ask them if they use the 1010 rail..

Tom
Dude, do your homework. I asked about the NFPA standard. Unfortunately, you have no clue as to who you were dispariging. Last year I flew a rocket I made with the mighty C. I called the rocket "Narcolepsy" and everyone laughed about it. The rest of the time I'm at the AWAY cells. I'm currently building a bigger rocket because my Jumbo Darkstar will only take a 98 9 grain motor..... and no, I haven't flown 1010 for a couple of years because there aren't any at the AWAY cells. Perhaps we can meet and laugh there. I don't know if you go there, though.

Seriously, chill. My micromax is the easiest flights i do - i don't need help to haul it to the pad, don't have to get several more to get it on the rail, don't have to try to drive to fetch the parts which are really heavy. I just walk out, fly and generally get it back a few steps away. There's room for the big 'uns, the middle sizes and the little ones. Just depends on what you call fun.
 

Steve Shannon

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
6,717
Reaction score
3,581
Location
Butte, Montana
Just curious, delete if not a valid question in this thread: Would the concept of the manufacturer implementing a dead-short in the igniter from the factory that gets severed at the pad by 'pushing a clip' in and it 'snapping in place' likely be acceptable to the NAR/TRA/NFPA rules? Think the opposite of the little stickers they put on batteries when they ship them installed in a product, basically - you pull the sticker out and then the thing is 'live' but not before.

I know 'back in the day' people would twist their igniter leads together, install them in the motors and walk them to the pad - assume E-F-G for this random memory, not big stuff, as that may never have been acceptable. I imagine the issue with doing this isn't technical, as it seems pretty valid, but it is procedural - i.e. if you don't do it (or don't do it right), you could have a problem.

Anyway, I was mostly curious if the concept of a manufacturer supplied dead-short igniter would be possibly acceptable or if it is still 100% not acceptable for some reason and what that reason would be. I easily accept that there is/could be a valid reason and I'd like to be more educated.

Sandy.
I don’t believe so. The requirement is clearly to remain uninstalled, not inhibited, although there’s another requirement for being inhibited.
 

dr wogz

Fly caster
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
6,372
Reaction score
1,513
Location
Land of Poutine!
Look at what happened with drones. A federal agency got it in their mind that what was happening was dangerous, and in a couple of years now you're not going to be able to fly anything over 250g or whatever without licensing and data transmission and stuff.
I don't think Drones are a good example.

Drones can be bought by anyone, and flown by anyone (and usually soon after the batteries are charged!). The main "regulations" issue was from a bunch of wahoos who fly them where they shouldn't: Airports, over military bases, over prisons, etc.. And the fact many think of them as a 'toy'.. Grand-ma can buy one for her grand son (and who happens to be the local thug, for whatever reason), so he flies it as he sees fit, disregarding any sense of decency or courtesy.
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
Good morning to all my rocketeer friends! Flying weather is just around the corner! Of course now we have the spring rains to look forward to. But, that's okay. It'll just be good to get out and do some flying. Our lab/workshop is brand new. And it's a lot larger than the other one we used to have.

I was recently working on our own version of BKNO3 pellets. I did some testing of that material and it's very energetic! I actually got the formula from my propellant chemist/consultant. I asked him how much of it would take to light a motor. He told me about 3-5 grams would light a 10-20 pound motor. I have no doubt he's correct after watching what 4 grams looks like with a test I did! Pretty amazing!

Of course there are two companies (I think two) that manufacture BKNO3 pellets. They're very expensive. Around $6,000-$7,000 a pound. And I DON'T think that includes shipping which is also very expensive.
 

rcktnut

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
1,692
Reaction score
252
Location
Sheboygan WI
So much for inexpensive motors if that is what you will be using to ignite them. Figuring 4 grams to light the motor and at $6,500 a pound the cost of that igniter would be $57.50, not including shipping for the BKNO3. Can you roll your own for a lot less expensive??
 
Last edited:

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,069
Reaction score
1,226
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
BNKO3 based pyrogen is very impressive and should get a motor going very well. Lots of people are using it rather than thermite now.

There's already at least 1 rocketry vendor that makes it available in kit form.


Just over $2 per gram though so not cheap but nowhere near the $58 per gram above.
 

rharshberger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
9,867
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Pasco, WA
So much for inexpensive motors if that is what you will be using to ignite them. Figuring 4 grams to light the motor and at $6,500 a pound the cost of that igniter would be $57.50, not including shipping for the BKNO3.
Actually BKNO3 pellets are not hard to make, and the boron no too expensive. A number of us here use igniters made from BKNO3 with viton as a binder. I might have $50 in materials and enough to make a lot of 4 gram igniters.
 

PayLoad

I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
553
Reaction score
644
Location
Orefield, PA
Good morning to all my rocketeer friends! Flying weather is just around the corner! Of course now we have the spring rains to look forward to. But, that's okay. It'll just be good to get out and do some flying. Our lab/workshop is brand new. And it's a lot larger than the other one we used to have.

I was recently working on our own version of BKNO3 pellets. I did some testing of that material and it's very energetic! I actually got the formula from my propellant chemist/consultant. I asked him how much of it would take to light a motor. He told me about 3-5 grams would light a 10-20 pound motor. I have no doubt he's correct after watching what 4 grams looks like with a test I did! Pretty amazing!

Of course there are two companies (I think two) that manufacture BKNO3 pellets. They're very expensive. Around $6,000-$7,000 a pound. And I DON'T think that includes shipping which is also very expensive.
Focus, brother.....
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
This to CPU TOMMY. Thanks for YOUR positive remarks.

Now let me say something about pricing. While it's not set in stone, you can expect our prices to be, on average, HALF of what you're' paying currently. Perhaps less on certain motors. Especially on larger motors.

As an example. A competitor that offers an "L" class motor, sells for approximately $260. Our "NEW" upgraded L-911 will come in around half that price. I checked and his propellant weight was just over 3 pounds which is almost identical to ours. And while I cannot guarantee that price, I can tell you that it will be someplace close. Our motor may be a little higher in price OR a little lower. Wait and see!
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
One thing. No, BKNO3 "pellets" that any of "US" make aren't difficult to make. HOWEVER, they are dangerous to make. They are very sensitive to ESD. So, if you're working with the chemicals to make them, you'd best take all the necessary precautions to insure your safety.

rcknut, I'm sure you read where I said I "roll my own." I make my OWN version of BKNO3 pellets. But, there is an important chemical variation I use that's proprietary. I promise. Our igniters won't make our motors more expensive!
 

jsdemar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
2,632
Reaction score
644
0.5 grams: Boron + KNO3 + Viton. No pressing. No mixing of static-sensitive powders. Can be dipped or formed into pellets. Higher energy than mil-spec BKNO3 (tested and compared in a calorimeter). And not proprietary.

BKNO3_1s.png
 

hobie1dog

Hi-Fi Addict
Joined
Jul 26, 2009
Messages
4,192
Reaction score
497
Location
NC
Don:
When the future reveals your promises on pricing and performance, everyone's apprehensions are laid to rest, and the virus is under control, and we get to meet at a launch, I'm giving you a big HUG. I'd like to say," I'm friends with the guy who made HPR more affordable for everyone, and possible for me to get my Level 3"
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
Very cool hobie 1 dog. I certainly understand! It's going to take some time to lay to rest those doubts. But, that's okay. HUGS are good. I'm a "touchy-feely" guy. Just ask my wife, 5 grown kids, 13 grandchildren, and 3 great-grandchildren. THEY know! lol!
 

don carter

Sponsor
TRF Sponsor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
99
Reaction score
87
JSDEMAR. I have to admit. That looks very impressive. Plenty of gas and particles which is what it takes to light a motor. Are you saying the formula is a half gram of each boron, viton, potassium nitrate?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top