# Hello from Carber Energetics!

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#### jderimig

Don, I assume you are going to achieve low prices by not having dealers correct? Dealers need their margins. So I surmise you will be selling and shipping directly to customers?

#### Rocket501

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Honestly, I could see an L-900 being done single-use for that price range. Let's say it is 3000ns, comfortably in the lower-end of the L-range and some simple math shows that 3.3 seconds of burn time. A thick-walled 54mm OD filament wound fiberglass case of the requisite length (about 24 inches) would run me $30 from a supplier I work with in relatively short runs (total run value of$500). For longer runs, it would probably fall a bit more. 3lbs of prop shouldn't exceed $30. The nozzle wouldn't need anything fancy, a bit of machined medium-grain graphite bedded in epoxy is quite cheap, most of the cost would mostly be in the machining operation. At this size, an epoxy-chopped fiber bulkhead or just a plywood disc works at modest pressures and burn times as well. So, raw materials (not including the ignition system, packaging, etc.) could easily be in the$60-70 range for largish runs of motors. Then the question is how much time does it take to make a motor to make it worth while as a business and the cost of the surrounding legalities such as licenses, certification, etc.

I have nothing to do with Carber, but I really don't see the need for going fancy with the igniter. Standing out on cost-alone seems like it would be a fine business move to me. I actually have used HEI before for a second-stage, but still use conventional up-the-throat for all of my first-stages because I find it easier and perfectly reliable with homemade igniters using Demar's V-BKNO3 pyrogen igniters. He also has a handy formula for sizing the amount of pyrogen you need for a motor. The resulting home-made igniters are very reliable and cost me less than a dollar each to make.

I'm more interested in mass ratios and possible O-class motors and up.

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##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
... Then the question is how much time does it take to make a motor to make it worth while as a business and the cost of the surrounding legalities such as licenses, certification, etc...
One of the few things I agreed with my father with - "There is plenty of work out there if you want to work for nothing"

#### don carter

We have yet to decide on dealers. It's a good possibility we WILL have dealers. Especially on the West Coast. We're just not sure yet. Most likely we will.

Rocket 501, if you're interested in motors in class "O" and above, you've come to the right place. We can help you with that. The last motors we manufactured were either N or O class motors. We made 4 of them. Two for Bruce Kelly. He used one at Black Rock Nevada. It worked very well. It had an integral igniter. We static fired two of the 4. They worked great.

So, if you're in the market for a VERY large motor, we're going to be your motor manufacturers!!

#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
We have yet to decide on dealers. It's a good possibility we WILL have dealers. Especially on the West Coast. We're just not sure yet. Most likely we will.

Rocket 501, if you're interested in motors in class "O" and above, you've come to the right place. We can help you with that. The last motors we manufactured were either N or O class motors. We made 4 of them. Two for Bruce Kelly. He used one at Black Rock Nevada. It worked very well. It had an integral igniter. We static fired two of the 4. They worked great.

So, if you're in the market for a VERY large motor, we're going to be your motor manufacturers!!
Hi Don
If you do end up producing product that is certified and are able to ship legally please consider giving us a call.

#### don carter

Tim, I can assure you I will do so. Where are you located? Oh wait. I see. Illinois. You're not that far from me. I'm in Kentucky...

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
It took forEVER for me to figure out where I'd seen this marketing approach before.

If the carter/cpu tommy duo was represented by an SNL skit it would be the Herlihy Boy's Grandma Sitting Service:

Granted, Sandler and Farley didn't call people a bunch of negative nazis and belittle people's other grandma sitting services, but still.
This thread is hands down the best vaporware roll-out ever.
Omg.. I freiking love that !!! you win the internet for today..

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
We have yet to decide on dealers. It's a good possibility we WILL have dealers. Especially on the West Coast. We're just not sure yet. Most likely we will.

Rocket 501, if you're interested in motors in class "O" and above, you've come to the right place. We can help you with that. The last motors we manufactured were either N or O class motors. We made 4 of them. Two for Bruce Kelly. He used one at Black Rock Nevada. It worked very well. It had an integral igniter. We static fired two of the 4. They worked great.

So, if you're in the market for a VERY large motor, we're going to be your motor manufacturers!!
Any video of the static tests?

#### BLKKROW

TRF Supporter
Happy to see additional options surfacing. Best of luck!

#### cerving

##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry
TRF Supporter
A hammer and a hardwood dowel are the tools I would use. I bet you know someone with both.
I have both, of course, but I wouldn't trust it... 6061T6 isn't known for its ductility.

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
If I buy any more A.P. I will be in this position with the wife..

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I have both, of course, but I wouldn't trust it... 6061T6 isn't known for its ductility.
Okay. I don’t know how badly it’s bent, but it seems like you’re not out anything to try. I would check it over carefully with a loupe or even use some kind of dye to make sure there are no cracks.

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
Okay. I don’t know how badly it’s bent, but it seems like you’re not out anything to try. I would check it over carefully with a loupe or even use some kind of dye to make sure there are no cracks.
Hence the problem.

It can't be trusted..

#### cerving

##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry
TRF Supporter
Hence the problem.

It can't be trusted..
Yup. I would be afraid that it would fail and take a perfectly good rear end closure with it. And waste a $120 load, too. #### Steve Shannon ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter I would ask Karl at AT what he thinks. Or, have the tube shortened and new threads cut. You end up with a tube that’s one grain shorter, but you still have a usable tube. #### Buckeye ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter That is not correct. It is installed at the pad or a designated area. The rocket is also to be situated to minimize risk to people. The rocket does not have to be in a vertical position. Well, then some over-zealous pad managers need to be informed of this. For ease, I like to install the ignitor while the rocket is safely horizontal on the rail. If they see this, they run over and demand that the flier put the rocket vertical, bend over backwards, and fight gravity to install the critical ignition source. Dumb. Aerotech hobby motors, and I believe some HPR motors, instruct you to install the igniter while building the motor. Nobody has a hissy fit over the rules on these motors. So, what's the problem??? I think the integral ignitor is brilliant, but the rah-rah sales pitch is a turn off. For now, it is nothing but vaporware. #### Steve Shannon ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Well, then some over-zealous pad managers need to be informed of this. For ease, I like to install the ignitor while the rocket is safely horizontal on the rail. If they see this, they run over and demand that the flier put the rocket vertical, bend over backwards, and fight gravity to install the critical ignition source. Dumb. Aerotech hobby motors, and I believe some HPR motors, instruct you to install the igniter while building the motor. Nobody has a hissy fit over the rules on these motors. So, what's the problem??? I think the integral ignitor is brilliant, but the rah-rah sales pitch is a turn off. For now, it is nothing but vaporware. Some model rocket motors must have their igniters installed when building. I have never seen a certified high power motor that needs that although it’s sometimes a pain to install an igniter in a moonburner’s offset core. I’ve had people tell me that igniters must be installed when the rocket is upright and vertical also, but that’s not required by the Safety Codes or NFPA 1127. Igniters may be installed at a prepping area that has been established by the RSO (away from spectators and pointed in a safe direction ALWAYS). However, the leads may not be attached to the igniter until the rocket is upright and in launch position. That’s the official rule, but LDs and RSOs are allowed to adopt stricter rules (although they may not waive the official rules). As far as the much discussed “integral igniter” goes, I just don’t understand what the purpose is. It seems like a solution in search of a problem. #### Buckeye ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter #### Mike Haberer ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter So Mike, this was just a comparative figure. If you don’t think our L-911 is a good price at$130, then I would suggest you pass is by. We may even be lower than that. Time will tell. What I DO know is this. You’re getting your head handed to you at the prices you quoted me!
I did not say it wasn't a good price, I said "\$130 would indeed be a great price". Please read more carefully.

Not if the better mousetrap isn't available. As of today it's still vapor-motor-ware.

You stated above you aren't going to have multiple propellants. That's fine, but that points again to a niche market. A lot of us LOVE sparky's (Dark Matter and Skidmark). And Blue Thunder and Blue Streak. And Smokey Sam and Black Jack and Fast Jack. And VMax and IMax and Warp-9 and Super Thunder. And Red Lightening and Redline. And Pink. And Mellow. And Classic. And White Lightening. And Mojave Green (yes, people like Mojave Green, even if it is a bitch to light). And all the Loki variants.

Variety is the spice of life, or so I hear...

Finally, your way of hawking the product is resulting in two types of responses, one the from the glass-is-half-full crowd and the other from the show-me crowd (as in we're figuratively from Missouri, the Show-Me state). The glass-is-half-full folks are potentially being setup for disappointment. The show-me crowd would like to be pleasantly surprised but won't be disappointed if this doesn't pan out. That is human nature. A good business plan would try to appeal to both. You aren't. Just saying...

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
I think the integral ignitor is brilliant, but the rah-rah sales pitch is a turn off. For now, it is nothing but vaporware.
Not directed at you specifically...

Ohhhhhh. So the rah ran sales pitch hurt some "feelings"

Again...its that simple... grow up and grab a set from your wife and take it for what it is...

Wow.

#### don carter

CPUTommy. You make me laugh! Keep up your positive attitude! I'm loving every minute of it!

Look. I came on the Forum to tell folks about our motors we plan to introduce sometime in late spring/summer. We want our motors to have integral igniters. That is, head end igniters. None of this up-the-throat stuff. I thought those were for Estes motors. And we want to offer you a low cost alternative to what you're paying now. When you see our motors you'll have an opportunity to see if you like us or not. If you don't like us, then no love lost. BUT, on the other hand, if you DO like us and our motors, you're going to be pleasantly surprised. As I've said before, you're going to like the performance, the simplicity, and the price of our motors. Give us a chance. We at CARBER ENERGETICS want YOU as our customers!

#### KC3KNM

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Not directed at you specifically...

Ohhhhhh. So the rah ran sales pitch hurt some "feelings"

Again...its that simple... grow up and grab a set from your wife and take it for what it is...

Wow.
You invested in Carber Energetics or something? The only time I’ve seen someone defending vaporware with such fervor before were the bag holders for Nikola on the trading boards.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
JSDEMAR. I have to admit. That looks very impressive. Plenty of gas and particles which is what it takes to light a motor. Are you saying the formula is a half gram of each boron, viton, potassium nitrate?
Here is one of the threads on BKNO3V igniters, including my mixing and sizing spreadsheet based on jsdemar's formula. They are easy to make and size properly.

##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
Not directed at you specifically...

Ohhhhhh. So the rah ran sales pitch hurt some "feelings"

Again...its that simple... grow up and grab a set from your wife and take it for what it is...

Wow.
Yeah, that helps the whole situation.

EDITED - My wife and I like to go out and eat when we have a chance and, that chance comes along infrequently. Italian, in search of a place that makes real veal marsala, if it matters. Buying anything, food, cars, rocket motors, is the whole experience, not just the item being purchased, is important. Price plays a role, but I won't go to a restaurant that treats me like they are doing me a favor selling to me, regardless of cost.

You are blowing this, Don.

However, you pulled the pin on this hand grenade - live with it. If someone asks you a question, answer it, or say you will get the answer.
Show us what your line will be with proposed prices.
Videos of static tests - They don't exist? Then neither does your company.

My largest advise is be quiet until you have something to sell, and stop belittling people who would have been your customers.

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#### Dustin Lobner

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
We at CARBER ENERGETICS want YOU as our customers!
You have a really weird way of going about getting customers. I (and a lot of other people) are willing to pay more for something I know is supported by someone who isn't going to look down on me. I don't give two sh!ts about your pricing plan if I feel awkward asking you a question or whatever about your product because I'm afraid I'm going to catch heck over it. Customer service and customer experience matters.

Somewhat related to all of this, and just generally for various people here, why all the hate for Estes? Some of the best memories I have as a kid are launching Estes rockets in my back yard (lived in the country) with my dad. High power rocketry as a hobby would not exist without Estes. I also think that Estes is the key to the future of HPR as a hobby, because we need people participating in the hobby for there to be a hobby, and they are the "gateway drug" for HPR. Lay off of them. Better yet, support them too! I can have an evening's worth of fun with friends and their kids for the cost of one J that burns up in 2 seconds. If Carber's pricing holds up, the cost of one K...but that doesn't really make a difference in my book.

#### rcktnut

##### Well-Known Member
The motors will be designed as such that you could used an up the throat igniter if you so desired.
Post #111

We want our motors to have integral igniters. That is, head end igniters. None of this up-the-throat stuff. I thought those were for Estes motors.
Post #231

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#### CoyoteNumber2

##### Original San Diego High Power Rocketry
Any video of the static tests?
On their website next to the thrust curves.

#### Dustin Lobner

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
On their website next to the thrust curves.
Now I have to go clean off my monitor from the coffee I just spit all over it. Thanks for that.