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don carter

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Greetings fellow rocketeers! My name is Don Carter. I along with my business partner are starting a new business making solid propellant rocket motors. We have named our company CARBER ENERGETICS. Our motors will be released to the public sometime in late spring to mid-summer. At least that is our plan. We have decided on a propellant (yes, it's composite propellant!) and we think our motors will offer some exciting innovations. One of which will be integral igniters. There will be no motors with delays. All motors will be plugged. No "up-the-throat igniters." All igniters will be integral. They will be of course, single use motors. Yes, they will be safe to use and will be okayed by TRIPOLI or the NAR. No motors have been tested as yet. But, they will be soon. Our motors will range from K through O class. And we can make larger motors if you need a special order.

Motors will be constructed of filament wound fiberglass tubing, with a graphite nozzle. Solids loading will be high. We want you to be happy with our motors. We want you to give us a try. Most of all, we want you to take a look at our prices. We think you're going to be extremely satisfied with our pricing structure. I won't offer prices just yet. I'll wait till we have our motors ready for release. What I will tell you is that be ready! Be ready for great motors at great prices!

Before I go any further, we have hired a retired propellant chemist who worked for a large solid motor company. He consults for us and helps us with formulas and if we run into any snags. The man knows what he's doing. But, that's not all. My partner and I have many years of solid propellant experience behind us. We've been making solid motors since 1983. We owned a company from 1983 till 1995 when we shut things down. At that time, we were making "O" class motors. We mix our propellant under vacuum in a heated mixer. We cast under vacuum. We heat cure our propellant. Yes, we've spent a lot of money on our process. But we think you, our potential customers are worth the effort and the money it takes to do it right!

You'll be seeing more from me from time to time. We want you as our customers! All we ask is that you give us a try.
 

Cory

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Looking forward to detail on the integral igniter. Would be great for upper stages, but wonder how the RSO will feel about it and how the safety code applies.
Very interesting - Good luck sir!
 

don carter

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Good morning to all my rocketeer friends!

Yes, we will have a website when our motors are released for sale to you the consumer.

In regards to our integral igniters, every motor CARBER ENERGETICS will offer will have an integral igniter. Those igniters will comply with all rules and regulations for all TRIPOLI and NAR sponsored launches. Safety is paramount with us. PERIOD! I can assure you that no motor will leave here unless it's been thoroughly tested and the igniter system we offer will guarantee complete ignition. As I'm sure you know, up-the-throat igniters can be misplaced resulting in incomplete ignition. Or even worse, chuffing and motor breakdown. There goes your huge investment! But, as most of you know, most professional type motors have a built in igniter in the head end of the motor which allows for complete ignition. When you light one of our motors, you'll have "instant on." In other words, when you push the button, there will be no delay between the time you push that button and the time the motor lights. Our igniters had help from our propellant consultant. He's a retired propellant chemist with over 35 years experience working at a major solid rocket motor company. He helped formulate our igniters. As an example, it only takes 3-5 grams of our igniter material to light a 10-20 pound motor. Now THAT'S some energy!

Thank you for the good luck wishes. I'm hoping that we can offer you the best motor value on the current market and that you'll be happy with our motors.
 

don carter

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As far as the RSO goes, I can't answer how that person will "feel" about our igniters but I can assure you that our igniter WILL comply with all rules and regulations. IF our igniters comply with all rules and regulations there should be NO issue.
 

Mike Haberer

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As far as the RSO goes, I can't answer how that person will "feel" about our igniters but I can assure you that our igniter WILL comply with all rules and regulations. IF our igniters comply with all rules and regulations there should be NO issue.
One, I'm not sure why yet another thread is opened on this subject. The last one was gnarly. Are we going to repeat the same arguments again, since the previously posed questions went unanswered?

Second, the existing R&R's say you can install the igniter "... in the motor only after my rocket is at the launch pad or in a designated prepping area", so none of us that followed the original thread understand how an integral igniter can easily meet them. They can't be installed when the RSO inspects the rocket, period. That means they could only be installed after RSO inspection in a designated prep area. Those exist at major events but are not a standard practice at most typical HPR club launches. Plus, the "instant on" aspect makes the potential risks higher than with existing igniters, not lower.

So, an integral igniter would require a change to both NAR and Tripoli R&R's, or would require every club launch to have a designated prep area away from the RSO/LCO table(s) and a designated distance from the away pads. The latter can be hard to do in some locations like the Midwest where most HPR flights are on fallow agricultural fields in non-summer months. Ag fields are not conducive to away prep areas much of the time, certainly not during the Spring months. At the last club launch I attended in December, a member's truck got stuck up to the axles in the mud trying to retrieve the away launch pads at the end of the day. The ground was frozen solid at 9AM and pure mud by 4PM. No one is going to drive their vehicle to an away prep area in a muddy field nor are they going to schlep their gear to one on foot. Just saying...
 

BABAR

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One, I'm not sure why yet another thread is opened on this subject. The last one was gnarly. Are we going to repeat the same arguments again, since the previously posed questions went unanswered?

Second, the existing R&R's say you can install the igniter "... in the motor only after my rocket is at the launch pad or in a designated prepping area", so none of us that followed the original thread understand how an integral igniter can easily meet them. They can't be installed when the RSO inspects the rocket, period. That means they could only be installed after RSO inspection in a designated prep area. Those exist at major events but are not a standard practice at most typical HPR club launches. Plus, the "instant on" aspect makes the potential risks higher than with existing igniters, not lower.

So, an integral igniter would require a change to both NAR and Tripoli R&R's, or would require every club launch to have a designated prep area away from the RSO/LCO table(s) and a designated distance from the away pads. The latter can be hard to do in some locations like the Midwest where most HPR flights are on fallow agricultural fields in non-summer months. Ag fields are not conducive to away prep areas much of the time, certainly not during the Spring months. At the last club launch I attended in December, a member's truck got stuck up to the axles in the mud trying to retrieve the away launch pads at the end of the day. The ground was frozen solid at 9AM and pure mud by 4PM. No one is going to drive their vehicle to an away prep area in a muddy field nor are they going to schlep their gear to one on foot. Just saying...
Yeah, after my first thought as a low power rocketeer, “All Right! A 100 percent reliable system that I don’t need to mess with,” I got to the “K through O” section and went, “This ain’t for me, and the HPR guys are gonna have a rules issue on this.”

Don, I wish you the best on your endeavors here, and rocketeers love having choices, but you certainly want to talk to NAR and particularly Tripoli before you sink any more money into this venture. I suspect most if not all waiver requiring launches are done through these two clubs, so if a rules violation precludes them from using your motors, you may be up the proverbial creek sans paddle.
 

heada

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Knowing that 99% of launch controllers are simple 2 lead systems and are expecting a 2 wire igniter up the throat, can you explain or show how the igniters in your motors would connect to the typical launch controller? With nothing going up the throat, I'm failing to see how that connection is made.
 

CPUTommy

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The ignitor can be installed into the motor if its not connected. Just like the delay charge you can add to the single use motors, the ignightors can be something like that.

Im all for LOWER pricing on higher impulse motors and look forward to seeing what you guys offer.

As for some negative stuff you may or may not hear, remeber that some people talk a big game and split hairs, yet dont build or fly anything and haven't for probably 30 plus years and these people are not the ones buying anything over a C6-7.

Im excieted to see another power plant option hopefully sooner vs later !!
 

K'Tesh

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Knowing that 99% of launch controllers are simple 2 lead systems and are expecting a 2 wire igniter up the throat, can you explain or show how the igniters in your motors would connect to the typical launch controller? With nothing going up the throat, I'm failing to see how that connection is made.
From reading between the lines, It seems to me that the igniter is pre-installed (permanently) with leads coming out of the throat of the nozzle. Thus we'd not have to install igniters at the pad.

I'd be a little worried about static discharge accidentally starting an uninstalled motor, but other than that it sounds interesting.
 

CalebJ

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The ignitor can be installed into the motor if its not connected. Just like the delay charge you can add to the single use motors, the ignightors can be something like that.
That's not how I'd interpret the code.
J. Install an ignition device in a high power rocket motor only at the launch pad or in a special preparation area a safe distance away from uninvolved parties
'Connected' or not, it's still an ignition device in a high power rocket motor.
 

CPUTommy

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If the ignightor is already installed "J" isn't valid.

If "K" was install delay charge and the delay was already installed then "K" is null .
 

CalebJ

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Why wouldn't J be valid?
 

CPUTommy

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If the ignightor comes pre installed then installing the ignightor cant happen.

At the time of the writing there were no company's that I know of that had a pre installed ignition device.

No ?
 

CalebJ

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If it comes preinstalled, then the violation of J has already occurred. Clearly not in compliance with the spirit or letter of the rule, at least the way I interpret it.
 

3stoogesrocketry

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A old motor company is coming back from the dead with high power SU motors that will be amazing for our hobby. But yet the only complaint is a pre installed Ignitor ......
90 percent of y'all need to just step off the high horse and welcome Don back . You will never buy his products so why shame his products.
 

CalebJ

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A old motor company is coming back from the dead with high power SU motors that will be amazing for our hobby. But yet the only complaint is a pre installed Ignitor ......
90 percent of y'all need to just step off the high horse and welcome Don back . You will never buy his products so why shame his products.
Perhaps an actual discussion of the product that's coming isn't so unreasonable, when the description from the manufacturer seems in clear violation of the codes?

Getting on your own high horse is no more helpful than telling others to step off theirs.
 

rharshberger

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A old motor company is coming back from the dead with high power SU motors that will be amazing for our hobby. But yet the only complaint is a pre installed Ignitor ......
90 percent of y'all need to just step off the high horse and welcome Don back . You will never buy his products so why shame his products.
I too am waiting to see/try the new product before passing judgement. Motor suppliers/manufacturers are a good thing IMO.
 

3stoogesrocketry

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Perhaps an actual discussion of the product that's coming isn't so unreasonable, when the description from the manufacturer seems in clear violation of the codes?

Getting on your own high horse is no more helpful than telling others to step off theirs.

Don tried to in his initial post . Then he was non stop attacked over a ignitor issue.
Perhaps an actual discussion of the product that's coming isn't so unreasonable, when the description from the manufacturer seems in clear violation of the codes?

Getting on your own high horse is no more helpful than telling others to step off theirs.
Not on my high horse otherwise I would have been like virtually everybody else and harrassed him over a ignitor. Hmmmm CTI has built several head end only motors and Tripoli members have flown them the way they where produced . Should we talk about that ?
 

hobie1dog

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With all the opposition you're facing, I personally wish you the best and hope to be buying your product in the future. Your motors have been proven to be great before as mentioned in the previous thread by people who launched them at HP events.
 

CalebJ

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Harassing is asking for clarification (or any details whatsoever) on how the system is intended to work?

No, Don has absolutely not attempted to clarify how the system works.

He might be a wonderful businessman, wonderful person, and a fantastic builder of rocket motors. But don't pretend for a second like this has been handled well.
 

BABAR

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A old motor company is coming back from the dead with high power SU motors that will be amazing for our hobby. But yet the only complaint is a pre installed Ignitor ......
90 percent of y'all need to just step off the high horse and welcome Don back . You will never buy his products so why shame his products.
No shame intended. Sounds like a potentially great product. He has posted a preview here, including explicitly mentioning the preinstalled ignitor, which clearly invites input.

what WOULD be a shame would be for forum members here NOT to point out this issue and have Don’s company produce a great product with a fatal flaw that will require retrofitting or abandoning the design altogether.

Nobody is dissing anything or anyone, just pointing out a possible conflict. Given his experience Don is likely aware and already has the “fix.” If not, the forum has done him a favor by identifying the issue NOW before the product is in the market.

again, product sounds great. Asking what the plan is to get around the rules issue is a reasonable and possibly very PERTINENT question.
 

Arpak

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I wondering what's the plan if the preinstalled igniter is a dud, or is that not common in K+ motors?
 

3stoogesrocketry

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No shame intended. Sounds like a potentially great product. He has posted a preview here, including explicitly mentioning the preinstalled ignitor, which clearly invites input.

what WOULD be a shame would be for forum members here NOT to point out this issue and have Don’s company produce a great product with a fatal flaw that will require retrofitting or abandoning the design altogether.

Nobody is dissing anything or anyone, just pointing out a possible conflict. Given his experience Don is likely aware and already has the “fix.” If not, the forum has done him a favor by identifying the issue NOW before the product is in the market.

again, product sounds great. Asking what the plan is to get around the rules issue is a reasonable and possibly very PERTINENT question.

I agree with you and everybody else with concern issues. What if he has a design he's waiting to patent . Or he's still trying to get it 100 percent before he produces it and does not want to show pictures . Don also said these are not the average HPR motor. Maybe he's marketing BALLS flyers. I'm not trying to argue , but both CTI and Aerotech offer head end ignition and there's no concern with them as they have been flown at research launches.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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I’m going to guess that the rules issue and how the igniter will connect to the launch controller leads are things the manufacturer has thought through. If not those are obvious oversights, but I can’t imagine a manufacturer getting this far into the process of starting a company without those things in place.

I’m looking forward to seeing what they’ve got coming. I haven’t flown my first K yet, but hope to do it soon if launches resume locally. Some more single-use options would be great.

I’m curious about descriptions of the propellant types. Smoke and flame colors, sparkles or not, etc. And what are the motor diameters? What are the thrust curves like?
 
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