Hello from Carber Energetics!

[DaHabes]

I don't think Drones are a good example.

Drones can be bought by anyone, and flown by anyone (and usually soon after the batteries are charged!). The main "regulations" issue was from a bunch of wahoos who fly them where they shouldn't: Airports, over military bases, over prisons, etc.. And the fact many think of them as a 'toy'.. Grand-ma can buy one for her grand son (and who happens to be the local thug, for whatever reason), so he flies it as he sees fit, disregarding any sense of decency or courtesy.

I respectfully disagree. The reason we need rules, regulations and laws is because there is a sizable percentage of human beings that are neither decent nor courteous. If everyone followed the golden rule no rules, regulations or laws would be needed. It's just the reality of things.

It doesn't matter that anyone can buy a drone vs. a HP rocket and fly it. The reality of drones is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. The reality of HP rockets is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. It all comes down to safety. NAR and then Tripoli were there at the beginnings of HP Rocketry, so were able to manage the growth, with difficulty. The ATF lawsuit case is the key example. When the feds get it in their minds to get in your way it's hard to counter. NAR and Tripoli took a big financial risk in fighting the ATF in court. The facts won at the end of the day, but it was never a sure thing. One or two bad instances of rocketry mishaps could draw the Feds attention again. I do trust that Tripoli and NAR will get it right at the end of the day (regarding HEI), but caution and vigilance are a constant requirement.

As regards this entire thread, no one is doubting the value HEI would provide, we're simply seeking answers to reasonable questions. Getting snarky, cock-sure responses is annoying at best, insulting at worst. Assuming HEI gets approved and certified, I'll make a sizable wager (case of beer, winners choice) that they would still need to be assembled at an away cell. That means the the average L2 flyer that flies JKL single stage rockets won't likely be a buyer, especially if they already have an investment in AT, Loki or Cesaroni hardware. That would require Carber Energetics SU motors to be cheaper than reloads, which would be a tall order, unless they don't care about profits. If that's the case then we all ought to be worried that such a business model could drive existing motor vendors over a bankruptcy cliff.

This is then, likely, a niche market for multi-stage air-starts (single stage clustered air-starts are quite manageable with existing components within existing rules and regs). That's a small subset of the flying community, which makes me wonder how the motors can be made cheaply without volume sales. Would love to see the business plan and profitability forecast based on sales volume.

 

[PayLoad]

Look - Let's be honest - the integrated ignitor is a fantastic idea, and a true innovation and achievement. I commend you.

However, It won't fly with the current regulations.

So make your motors standard ignition, and get them approved & sell them to us, OK?

 

[Walter Longburn]

Our "NEW" upgraded L-911

I figure this motor is probably 54mm? If so do you mind sharing the motor dimensions? If you'd rather wait till motor release that's fine. I'm currently working on 54mm 2 stage project and if this motor is 54mm I want to make sure I build it so it fits.

 

[dr wogz]

I respectfully disagree. The reason we need rules, regulations and laws is because there is a sizable percentage of human beings that are neither decent nor courteous. If everyone followed the golden rule no rules, regulations or laws would be needed. It's just the reality of things.

It doesn't matter that anyone can buy a drone vs. a HP rocket and fly it. The reality of drones is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. The reality of HP rockets is that they can be dangerous if used improperly. It all comes down to safety. NAR and then Tripoli were there at the beginnings of HP Rocketry, so were able to manage the growth, with difficulty. The ATF lawsuit case is the key example. When the feds get it in their minds to get in your way it's hard to counter. NAR and Tripoli took a big financial risk in fighting the ATF in court. The facts won at the end of the day, but it was never a sure thing. One or two bad instances of rocketry mishaps could draw the Feds attention again. I do trust that Tripoli and NAR will get it right at the end of the day (regarding HEI), but caution and vigilance are a constant requirement.

As regards this entire thread, no one is doubting the value HEI would provide, we're simply seeking answers to reasonable questions. Getting snarky, cock-sure responses is annoying at best, insulting at worst. Assuming HEI gets approved and certified, I'll make a sizable wager (case of beer, winners choice) that they would still need to be assembled at an away cell. That means the the average L2 flyer that flies JKL single stage rockets won't likely be a buyer, especially if they already have an investment in AT, Loki or Cesaroni hardware. That would require Carber Energetics SU motors to be cheaper than reloads, which would be a tall order, unless they don't care about profits. If that's the case then we all ought to be worried that such a business model could drive existing motor vendors over a bankruptcy cliff.

This is then, likely, a niche market for multi-stage air-starts (single stage clustered air-starts are quite manageable with existing components within existing rules and regs). That's a small subset of the flying community, which makes me wonder how the motors can be made cheaply without volume sales. Would love to see the business plan and profitability forecast based on sales volume.

we're saying the same thing. I was just pointing out that drone rules came along due to people not knowing any better, and the need to better regulate their use. hence teh 'government intervention'. Rocketry (especially HPR) is a very niche hobby, and we already have rules & regs in place. Like "CE" we are self regulating. Flaunting them would only invite more scrutiny. Drones, on the other hand, have no such foundation.

Now, drones vs. the .60 sized P-51 (scratch or Top flight kit, your choice! ) is again, the same sort of example. Granny will buy the drone for Timmy, but won't buy the plane kit.. the plane has it's own set of rules & established "safety" foundation..

 

[jsdemar]

JSDEMAR. I have to admit. That looks very impressive. Plenty of gas and particles which is what it takes to light a motor. Are you saying the formula is a half gram of each boron, viton, potassium nitrate?

The ratio by weight for B : KNO3 : V is 25 : 60 : 15.

The photo was 0.5 g of BKNO3-V dipped on an e-match. It will start using a 1-ohm nichrome head also. That size if good for J/K/L.

The Rocketry Forum has a restricted section where things like this may be discussed in detail.
See: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/boron-and-viton-available.150798/#post-1860731

 

[DaHabes]

This to CPU TOMMY. Thanks for YOUR positive remarks.

Now let me say something about pricing. While it's not set in stone, you can expect our prices to be, on average, HALF of what you're' paying currently. Perhaps less on certain motors. Especially on larger motors.

As an example. A competitor that offers an "L" class motor, sells for approximately $260. Our "NEW" upgraded L-911 will come in around half that price. I checked and his propellant weight was just over 3 pounds which is almost identical to ours. And while I cannot guarantee that price, I can tell you that it will be someplace close. Our motor may be a little higher in price OR a little lower. Wait and see!

OK, so let's play the game (just can't resist the challenge). L class motors in the L-911 range with roughly three pounds of propellant would (likely) be one f the following:

Cesaroni 2771L990 - $173
AT L1090W (RMS)- $189
AT L1000W (DMS)- $216

The prices are the best prices found online today. The highest price I saw was $240 for the AT L1000W DMS, no $260 amongst the trio. Comparing apples to apples, then, would be to compare to the AT L1000W, which is SU. $130 would indeed be a great price, but since the "around half the price" isn't a guarantee, we'll just have to "wait and see". At $160 the price wouldn't likely a showstopper for continuing to use AT and unlikely to persuade a Cesaroni flyer to switch, not for a single stage rocket when HEI requires a different launch configuration from the existing ass-end igniter hook-ups every club has in place.

If you only fly occasionally, the cost differential, even at $130, isn't likely a show-stopper to continue to spend your money with existing motor manufacturers, especially if you do reloads. If you fly a lot, then money isn't the object. Again, HEI, if it will require prep at an away cell (it will) will likely (in the absence of more information) be a niche product, for the high end L2 and L3 flyers. If you can configure these for either HEI or ass-end igniters, then you are singing a different tune....

Seriously, it's all in the details. When we have details, then we will know. Until then, it's vapor-motor-ware.

 

[don carter]

This in response to Mike Heberer. If you know anything about propellant, and I’m sure you do, then you know its cost per Newton Second. Consequently you should know about the cost of a single use motor. I can assure you that we’re going to make a profit. We’re just NOT going to rip off the flying community in order to do so!! We buy our AP, HTPB, curative, AL powder from where most other motor manufacturers do. We KNOW the costs! We also know the costs involved in making the motor/motors.
Know this. We don’t have the overhead the other motor manufacturers do. We’re small. We can pass along OUR savings to our customers. It’s really very simple. We’re not going to offer a lot of different motors within each class. We’re not going to offer different types of propellant. Our approach is simple. Offer no frills motors at no frills prices. It worked for us last time and there’s no reason for it not to work THIS time! We’re not going to give you funny colored smoke. Sparks. Or “fireworks” type propellant. Just straightforward, high energy, high solids, composite propellant! Once again, our motors will be low cost, no frills motors! You’re going to like them!

 

[don carter]

So Mike, this was just a comparative figure. If you don’t think our L-911 is a good price at $130, then I would suggest you pass is by. We may even be lower than that. Time will tell. What I DO know is this. You’re getting your head handed to you at the prices you quoted me!

 

[don carter]

If you’re buying reloadables don’t you have to pay for the hardware? We’re not comparing apples and oranges fellers. Compare MY single use motor to my competitors same L size. That’s all I ask.

 

[PayLoad]

Can I purchase one right now? THAT is comparing apples to apples

 

[SecondRow]

Not if you already own the hardware. Those customers will be comparing reloadable prices against your SU price. People that don’t have the hardware might compare the cost of the hardware, but they can amortize it over the total number of flights they plan to have.

 

[CPUTommy]

@don carter

Your welcome, I unlike some here have an opinion. Mine is a bit louder due to me being a self confessed dick.

If your offering me a motor that will fit into my rockets at HALF the price, count me all in. If this motor can solve the 2 stage issues then im not only all in, ill be your best buddy.. there are 3 motor vendors, CTI, AT and LOKI, (im leaving Estes out on purpose) all 3 have great motors and I currently have A few thousands in motors from AT and CTI.
I have nothing but respect for both vendors and I love each. A NEW motor vendor that comes here and offers a new choice and potentially a revolution that allows more people the chance to fly bigger rockets then im all in up to my a$$.. more people launching bigger motors = more fun

The sport of model rocketry and us flying rockets sure won't grow with out innovation.

We currently have gps, we have K.A.T.E. chute releases. 20 years ago..we had nothing... the sport has to grow and some people just refuse to change. All things that moved our sport to where it is today, I for one have no desire to go backwards.

Being the high power "police guy". I say..keep building motors!!!!

The people who are negative Nellies ARE NOT YOUR CUSTOMERS, they are the people who don't build anything over an 18mm motor mount, to these people a D Motor is just to powerful.. maybe it hurts there ears or something..let them complain and cry about nothing but there own feelings.. safe spots were designed for some of the crying babys..

Respectfully
"The Dude"

 

[don carter]

So, let me get this straight. If you own the hardware, you can reuse it several times over and over. Providing NOTHING goes wrong. Right? How many flights do you have to have in order to recover your initial investment? And after that, you're just buying the propellant. Right? But how much is the hardware? What are you paying for an L type motor hardware? Just curious? And if you "ding" it or break it or harm it in some way, you're going to be buying a new one aren't you? Just saying. Whereas if you buy one of my single use motors, that's IT. Look, I'm not knocking my potential competitors. I just know this. Back when I was making motors in the 80s and 90s, I knew what they were charging, and it wasn't pretty. And when we came on line with our low cost, no frills motors, we created a firestorm! It'll be that way again. I can assure you...

 

[don carter]

And THAT my friends is what I'm attempting to do. Offering YOU, the flying community access to motors you've NEVER had access to before. Larger motors you've NEVER had an opportunity to buy. Why, because they're too darned expensive THAT'S WHY! But, when we come on board, you'll be able to buy motors for the first time you can fly that'll be large motors. I'm talking L, M, N, O class motors. Won't it be fun? For a change, you'll be able to buy motors you've never had the opportunity to buy before because you've not been able to afford them. We're gonna change all that! We're gonna make buying motors fun. Not a drag! You're gonna be asking your current motor provider, "why are YOU charging so darned much for your motors!?!" I can promise you we're going to sell you motors that are going to take the flying community by storm!!

But NO reloadables. Simple single use motors. Put 'em in your rocket, fly 'em, take 'em out, put another one in and fly again. For probably half the price of what's you're currently paying. FUN, FUN, FUN!!

 

[don carter]

How much are you paying for a reloadable L motor grain/grains?

 

[Walter Longburn]

If a person has patience they can buy Aerotech motors 25% off from Balsa Machining Service... that puts the price of the AT L1000 at $180

 

[Neutronium95]

I would certainly be interested in a $130 L motor. I don't think that the price would make it the only L that I would fly, but even if it isn't half the price of comparable motors, it is still a noticeable amount less than other options.

 

[tsmith1315]

My hardware was paid for 25 years ago. So, I look at a cost-to-fly-today comparison. Maybe that's not fair, but with a limited budget it's just where I'm at. Odds are good there are plenty more in the same boat.

CTI will help with hardware cost on a cert flight (free case), and if you choose that motor wisely, a few extra bucks in spacers will leave you with a nice array of reloads to fly in the future from with a minimal investment. If I wanted something new, an upcoming L2 cert flight could be a good time to add variety.

The game has changed a bit since the 90's. Now, there is a great variety of motor choices, lots of fun propellants. This ain't fireworks, but make no mistake- it IS entertainment and fun propellants are alluring. I'm not saying you need to up your propellant game, simply that's what your competition is doing.

With all that said- if you can offer a SU L-motor for $130 before the end of the year, my L2 recertification plans may change. Just please come down a level. I promise, this isn't nearly as exciting for us as it is for you, since no sellable motors actually exist. This fervor should be saved for when cold, hard answers are available and motors are released. That's when you'll see people here get excited.

 

[cerving]

That's a reasonable argument for SU motors... I dropped an AT 54/1720 case onto my concrete garage floor recently, and dented one of the ends which turned it into a nice paperweight. Of course, it probably had 20 flights on it so I recouped the cost of the case vs. the SU equivalents, but I may not have been so lucky.

 

[Walter Longburn]

1720

1706

 

[Steve Shannon]

That's a reasonable argument for SU motors... I dropped an AT 54/1720 case onto my concrete garage floor recently, and dented one of the ends which turned it into a nice paperweight. Of course, it probably had 20 flights on it so I recouped the cost of the case vs. the SU equivalents, but I may not have been so lucky.

It can probably be “undented” without harm.

 

[cerving]

1706

Yeah, that one...

I've always like the CTI "grain" sizing better...

 

[cerving]

It can probably be “undented” without harm.

Not with the tools in my shop... unless I can do it with a hot air rework gun.

 

[don carter]

Funny how we’ve switched from integral igniters to motor pricing now!!

 

[CalebJ]

It's possible there was a pivot to a new area in the hopes that you might actually answer different questions...

 

[Steve Shannon]

Not with the tools in my shop... unless I can do it with a hot air rework gun.

A hammer and a hardwood dowel are the tools I would use. I bet you know someone with both.

 

[Cnorm]

It took forEVER for me to figure out where I'd seen this marketing approach before.

If the carter/cpu tommy duo was represented by an SNL skit it would be the Herlihy Boy's Grandma Sitting Service:



Granted, Sandler and Farley didn't call people a bunch of negative nazis and belittle people's other grandma sitting services, but still.
This thread is hands down the best vaporware roll-out ever.
Five stars. Required reading!

 

[rcktnut]

I would certainly be interested in a $130 L motor. I don't think that the price would make it the only L that I would fly, but even if it isn't half the price of comparable motors, it is still a noticeable amount less than other options.

Good deal for a single use L at $130.00 if it can be done. That was the price on sale 26+ years ago for their L900. ACS_Catalog.pdf (oldrocketplans.com)

 

[PayLoad]

... Just please come down a level. I promise, this isn't nearly as exciting for us as it is for you, since no sellable motors actually exist. This fervor should be saved for when cold, hard answers are available and motors are released. That's when you'll see people here get excited.

^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^

 

[don carter]

SEE!! Our L-900 was less than $130! And most likely, it will be close to that price again!!