ICEs and EVs

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I still want an EV (my future plans include solar panels and hopefully also use the car battery as a backup power supply during outages), however, I may now wait longer for new battery tech. I think we're really close, but not there yet and the more I dig, the more ugly facts I find (imho).

So I'm actually NOT anti-EV (more pro-EV!), but I do feel that I've been deceived into thinking that EVs are the solution and that ICE cars are an immediate danger and the main cause (or one of the main causes) of global warming.
 
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here.
I am saying that China's solar generation in 2022 was up 22% over China's solar generation in 2021. Solar went from 4% of total power generation to 5% of total generation in that period. China's wind generation in 2022 was up 24% over China's wind generation in 2021. Wind went from 8% to 9% of total power generation over the same period.

Feel free to read the sources I link, too. You might find valuable information there.
Ah, thank you. So wind and solar increased 2% of total power demand. Not enough to keep up with a GDP growth of 4-5%. So 2-3% of coal, nuclear or hydro (China calls the last 2 renewable) had to be added to support Chinese economic growth.
 
Ah, thank you. So wind and solar increased 2% of total power demand. Not enough to keep up with a GDP growth of 4-5%. So 2-3% of coal, nuclear or hydro (China calls the last 2 renewable) had to be added to support Chinese economic growth.
Did you happen to read the book "How to Lie With Statistics"? Because you're doing a fantastic job with many of the techniques in that book. Or maybe you're just not very good with numbers. It's hard to tell.

You may note that the overall power demand grew as a result of the GDP and population growth. And that the share of renewables as a proportion of the total grew as well. So the pace of renewable installations is faster than overall power demand growth.
 
Did you happen to read the book "How to Lie With Statistics"? Because you're doing a fantastic job with many of the techniques in that book. Or maybe you're just not very good with numbers. It's hard to tell.

You may note that the overall power demand grew as a result of the GDP and population growth. And that the share of renewables as a proportion of the total grew as well. So the pace of renewable installations is faster than overall power demand growth.
No it not lie. Its sad when presented with truth you do not like you resort to ad hominums.

The Kaya's identity is very simple. If the decarbonization rate is less than GDP growth rate, emissions increase. If decarbonization rate is greater than GDP then emissions decrease. The constraint is GDP has to be healthy positive or political realities will come into play, like we are seeing now in the UK and Germany.

The US has been very successful in reducing the carbon intensity/GDP since the 1960's (well before the climate movement started). The decrease is about a constant 4-5% a year. This trend was largely driven by expansion of nuclear power generation in the 60's and the substitution of natural gas for coal in thermal power plants in modern times.

The lessons learned in the UK and Germany (and NY and NJ) prove that wind and solar is not a viable path to decarbonization.

Wind and solar is not going to be capable of continuing as the "Green Wall" is starting to be hit in places like the UK, Germany and New York state.
 
Last edited:
No it not lie. Its sad when presented with truth you do not like you resort to ad hominums.
See, one of the techniques in that book is changing up the units. As you write,
GDP growth 5% > Change in solar + wind 2%, therefore solar and wind aren't keeping up. Looks bad, right?

What you're missing (or deliberately misleading) is that the left side of the equation is year to year percentage growth and the right side of the equation is absolute change. To represent the situation fairly, you need to show year-to-year growth on both sides:

GDP growth 5% < Growth in solar + wind 23%

But that argument doesn't look so good for you, does it?

I tried to explain this in #1743, but you either didn't catch it or are deliberately misrepresenting me, so I'll try again. Solar and wind represented 12% of China's electricity generation pie in 2021. In 2022, the pie was larger because of increased generation due to GDP and population growth, but solar and wind still accounted for a larger share of the pie, increasing to 14% of the total. Because it's a larger share of a larger overall pie, the solar+wind slice from 2022 is 23% bigger than the solar+wind slice from 2021. Solar and wind are not just growing in absolute terms, they are also growing faster than power generation growth, so they are also growing as a total share of the market.
The Kaya's identity is very simple. If the decarbonization rate is less than GDP growth rate, emissions increase. If decarbonization rate is greater than GDP then emissions decrease. The constraint is GDP has to be healthy positive or political realities will come into play, like we are seeing now in the UK and Germany.
Do you ever think to yourself "You know what? I'm going to get fact-checked on this. I should make sure I'm right before posting." Because maybe you should. Let's set aside the Kaya Identity for a moment and look at actual emissions:

1707838013844.png
You'll note that actual emissions are a nearly straight line from 2016 to 2021, with a minor blip downward in 2020 from COVID. And would you look at that? 2022 showed a noticeable bending downward of the curve that was more significant than the COVID blip. And you know what, GDP growth in China was 3% 2021-2022 while it was 2% 2019-2020. So China managed a significant reduction in the growth rate of carbon emissions while also maintaining GDP growth.

Yes, it remains to be seen where this goes from here, and what happens if China's GDP growth returns to 8%. But given the fact that renewable production is largely filling the expansion from GDP growth and more renewables are planned (including 26 GW of installed nuclear capacity by 2028), things appear to be moving in the right direction.

If you want to talk about the Kaya Identity, please provide actual data for energy intensity of the GDP and emissions intensity of the energy.
The US has been very successful in reducing the carbon intensity/GDP since the 1960's (well before the climate movement started). The decrease is about a constant 4-5% a year. This trend was largely driven by expansion of nuclear power generation in the 60's and the substitution of natural gas for coal in thermal power plants in modern times.

The lessons learned in the UK and Germany (and NY and NJ) prove that wind and solar is not a viable path to decarbonization.
Provide sources. Hint: the failure of a few offshore wind fields is very small in comparison to the overall wind industry.
Wind and solar is not going to be capable of continuing as the "Green Wall" is starting to be hit in places like the UK, Germany and New York state.
Provide sources.
 
I'm seeing news that Hybrids on E85 may have equal or lower carbon footprint than BEV. 🤔

"
Highlights
•GHG emissions of traditional, hybrid, and electric vehicles are evaluated with LCA.
•Emissions are lower for hybrid vehicles with biofuels than pure electrics in Brazil.
•Existing synergies between biofuels and electrification for the energy transition
•Biomethane shows the highest distance traveled for each kilogram of GHG emitted.
•Biofuels can be a better option even in optimistic scenarios for metallic batteries.

"

"Brazil has a very successful case in reducing emissions in the transport sector and is well positioned contributing to ambitious climate goals following a different path than BEVs through biofuels."

Source.

Also:
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/cars/major-new-fuel-hybrids-climate-friendly-electric-vehicles

Let's hope 3.5% of them don't catch fire! Checking my Rav4 Hybrid... nope, not on fire...yet. 😆
 
2022 showed a noticeable bending downward of the curve that was more significant than the COVID blip. And you know what, GDP growth in China was 3% 2021-2022 while it was 2% 2019-2020. So China managed a significant reduction in the growth rate of carbon emissions while also maintaining GDP growth.
Learn the methods of statistical inference. It would be a good tool for you to possess.
 
I'm seeing news that Hybrids on E85 may have equal or lower carbon footprint than BEV. 🤔

"
Highlights
•GHG emissions of traditional, hybrid, and electric vehicles are evaluated with LCA.
•Emissions are lower for hybrid vehicles with biofuels than pure electrics in Brazil.
•Existing synergies between biofuels and electrification for the energy transition
•Biomethane shows the highest distance traveled for each kilogram of GHG emitted.
•Biofuels can be a better option even in optimistic scenarios for metallic batteries.

"

"Brazil has a very successful case in reducing emissions in the transport sector and is well positioned contributing to ambitious climate goals following a different path than BEVs through biofuels."

Source.

Also:
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/cars/major-new-fuel-hybrids-climate-friendly-electric-vehicles

Let's hope 3.5% of them don't catch fire! Checking my Rav4 Hybrid... nope, not on fire...yet. 😆
US has the second largest fleet of flex fuel vehicles in the world.
Like I said, multi pronged approach.
Already being done.
By the way, can your Rav 4 run on E85?
 
Learn the methods of statistical inference. It would be a good tool for you to possess.
Show your work. If you think that I'm wrong, show me the numbers that prove it. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.
 
I'm seeing news that Hybrids on E85 may have equal or lower carbon footprint than BEV. 🤔

"
Highlights
•GHG emissions of traditional, hybrid, and electric vehicles are evaluated with LCA.
•Emissions are lower for hybrid vehicles with biofuels than pure electrics in Brazil.
•Existing synergies between biofuels and electrification for the energy transition
•Biomethane shows the highest distance traveled for each kilogram of GHG emitted.
•Biofuels can be a better option even in optimistic scenarios for metallic batteries.

"

"Brazil has a very successful case in reducing emissions in the transport sector and is well positioned contributing to ambitious climate goals following a different path than BEVs through biofuels."

Source.

Also:
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/cars/major-new-fuel-hybrids-climate-friendly-electric-vehicles

Let's hope 3.5% of them don't catch fire! Checking my Rav4 Hybrid... nope, not on fire...yet. 😆
Here's where you can buy E85 in Washington:
1707841086036.png
A total of 5 stations. And they say charging stations are too far apart!

My minivan (non-hybrid) can run on E85, and likely got the manufacturer some emissions credits. I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to put E85 into it.
 
Learn statistics.
Now who's resorting to ad hominem attacks?
The Kaya's identity is very simple. If the decarbonization rate is less than GDP growth rate, emissions increase.
You conveniently fail to mention that there are three other parameters to the Kaya Identity.
Not just GDP growth rate.
If carbon emissions are zero, the other parameters become moot.
You also fail to mention that the IPCC uses the Kaya Identity in its' studies and reach a different conclusion than you do.
So are we expected to believe the renowned IPCC, or you?
 
Now who's resorting to ad hominem attacks?
Its friendly career advice.
You conveniently fail to mention that there are three other parameters to the Kaya Identity.
Not just GDP growth rate.
If carbon emissions are zero, the other parameters become moot.
You also fail to mention that the IPCC uses the Kaya Identity in its' studies and reach a different conclusion than you do.
So are we expected to believe the renowned IPCC, or you?
Me of course. Still waiting for any of the IPCC predictions to be verified. Except one, we have already crossed the 1.5C global rise line of death and destruction, and guess what? Best climate we have ever had.

Perhaps 1.5C will turn out to be an opportunity after all, an opportunity for everyone to come to their senses, and relegate climate change to its rightful place – a mildly beneficial long term change in the weather.
 
Its friendly career advice.

Me of course. Still waiting for any of the IPCC predictions to be verified. Except one, we have already crossed the 1.5C global rise line of death and destruction, and guess what? Best climate we have ever had.

Perhaps 1.5C will turn out to be an opportunity after all, an opportunity for everyone to come to their senses, and relegate climate change to its rightful place – a mildly beneficial long term change in the weather.
It's telling that you refer to respectable institutions when it fits your case, then casually dismiss them the moment they disagree ('climate howling', for example). And tell others to 'learn the methods of statistical inference' when you're called out for making things up.
 
Paywalled
Sooo we have 5,000 people losing their jobs in the UK's steel sector, and that is a catastrophe that should not be tolerated. Just most definitely do not look over here, where 40,000 jobs were created in one year in the UK's renewables sector. I'm pretty sure advanced statistical analysis isn't needed here.
So turning off Russian gas due to Putin invading Ukraine had economic consequences? I am shocked that there is gambling going on in this casino!
Same discussion of cutting off Russian gas being the primary culprit. But hey, he mentions that demand for space cooling in India is part of the driver for their increase in power usage. So maybe a hotter climate isn't so grand after all?
What the UK really needs is to compete with slave labor in China. I wish I were joking. From the article:
1707843160978.png

I think I'll stick with the highly controversial anti-slave-labor position here.
Me of course. Still waiting for any of the IPCC predictions to be verified. Except one, we have already crossed the 1.5C global rise line of death and destruction, and guess what? Best climate we have ever had.

Perhaps 1.5C will turn out to be an opportunity after all, an opportunity for everyone to come to their senses, and relegate climate change to its rightful place – a mildly beneficial long term change in the weather.
Maybe take another look at the data? Heat related deaths in Europe on the rise due to higher temperatures... Next you'll say that all those old people dying off is good for the economy because then the social safety net doesn't have to support them in old age.
1707842851314.png
 
Its friendly career advice.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that with [checks notes] 25+ years of experience in the naval architecture industry, I have a slightly better handle on the skills required than someone with approximately zero years of experience. I do know that my clients want me to provide accurate information based on facts, and expect me to be able to back my statements with numbers instead of feelings. Given that "statistical inference" as you practice it appears to be "make up stuff out of whole cloth and/or bend everything to fit my preconceived notions," I'm going to say that doesn't really fit in with my job requirements. So pardon me if I disregard your career advice, no matter how many times you pat me on the head and tell me I'm naive.

By all means, present some fact-based evidence for your Kaya Identity argument.
 
US has the second largest fleet of flex fuel vehicles in the world.
Like I said, multi pronged approach.
Already being done.
By the way, can your Rav 4 run on E85?

Here's where you can buy E85 in Washington:
View attachment 630301
A total of 5 stations. And they say charging stations are too far apart!

My minivan (non-hybrid) can run on E85, and likely got the manufacturer some emissions credits. I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to put E85 into it.
I was referring to future possibilities much the way both of you look to future projections and stats.I found the Brazil references excellent as a possible case for the U.S.

There's actually an E85 station near me last I checked (friend was suggesting to use it as a form of race fuel lol).

My Rav4 Hybrid isn't e85 and neither does it have a Lithium battery (has NiMh).
 
I was referring to future possibilities much the way both of you look to future projections and stats.I found the Brazil references excellent as a possible case for the U.S.

There's actually an E85 station near me last I checked (friend was suggesting to use it as a form of race fuel lol).

My Rav4 Hybrid isn't e85 and neither does it have a Lithium battery (has NiMh).
OK, that's fair. One issue that I think is worth mentioning is that the study you cited depends on using sugarcane ethanol in Brazil vs. corn ethanol in the US. Per this study, sugarcane ethanol GHG production emissions are about 53% of corn ethanol. That means that we'd really need to be running on sugar rather than corn. Since we have relatively few places in the US that can grow sugarcane at scale (Hawaii, Gulf Coast, Florida), we'd have to import a lot. If that's coming from Brazil, I would want to know how that impacts the rain forest.
 
Now who's resorting to ad hominem attacks?

You conveniently fail to mention that there are three other parameters to the Kaya Identity.
Not just GDP growth rate.
If carbon emissions are zero, the other parameters become moot.
You also fail to mention that the IPCC uses the Kaya Identity in its' studies and reach a different conclusion than you do.
So are we expected to believe the renowned IPCC, or you?
Definitely not the IPCC, they've spewd far to many lies for me to believe anything they say. But you go on and do you.
 
Since we have relatively few places in the US that can grow sugarcane at scale (Hawaii, Gulf Coast, Florida), we'd have to import a lot
Scratch Hawaii from that list.
Sugar plantations have been replaced with homes.
Hawaii grown sugar is no longer economically competitive with cheap sugar produced in third world countries.
Same with pineapple.
 
Scratch Hawaii from that list.
Sugar plantations have been replaced with homes.
Hawaii grown sugar is no longer economically competitive with cheap sugar produced in third world countries.
Same with pineapple.
I was talking about climate/growing conditions (ie is it possible), not economic viability. But fair point.
 
Last edited:
OK, that's fair. One issue that I think is worth mentioning is that the study you cited depends on using sugarcane ethanol in Brazil vs. corn ethanol in the US. Per this study, sugarcane ethanol GHG production emissions are about 53% of corn ethanol. That means that we'd really need to be running on sugar rather than corn. Since we have relatively few places in the US that can grow sugarcane at scale (Hawaii, Gulf Coast, Florida), we'd have to import a lot. If that's coming from Brazil, I would want to know how that impacts the rain forest.
Great point!
 
Back
Top