"Why do EV's need to accelerate like "supercars", with only a 300 mile range, when 50% of that power would double their range ?

[Grog6]

To move a mass a certain amount of distance, uses a certain amount of energy, the faster you want to move it, the more energy it uses, Highly tuned ICE engines can get great gas mileage, but don't because we like the mojo pedal, lol. I can get 35mpg out of my 90's era Cougar, but I have exactly once. I ended up hitting the interstate at the same time as a state trooper everyday for a week.Normal was more like 20, lol.

 

[Reinhard]

I am not sure motors are oversized for head snapping torque. DC-ish motors all have similiar speed-torque curves. Torque is max at stall torque, very high in-fact. But you don't operate there very long. Motor are sized for the load when they are spinning not stalling. The supercar acceleration off the line is near the stall (low speed operation) when there is no or very low back EMF. However the motor needs to have sufficient power and drivability at speed. To get that you are going to have very high stall torque.

Another thing to consider with electric drive trains are thermals. The maximum permanent output that the drive train can handle without overheating is often significant lower than its short time peak output. So a BEV that performs at least "decent" crossing a mountain pass potentially performs good to great on short sprints.
I think I read a story in the past of a vehicle that was rather cheap in terms of fees in a European country because they were calculated based on a permanent output in the 100+ HP range instead of the manufacturer advertised peak output of 700 HP. But I can't find that source anymore.

Reinhard

 

[jderimig]

Another thing to consider with electric drive trains are thermals. The maximum permanent output that the drive train can handle without overheating is often significant lower than its short time peak output. So a BEV that performs at least "decent" crossing a mountain pass potentially performs good to great on short sprints.
I think I read a story in the past of a vehicle that's was rather cheap in terms of fees in a European country because they were calculated based on a permanent output in the 100+ HP range instead of the manufacturer advertised peak output of 700 HP. But I can't find that source anymore.

Reinhard

Which is why there are lots of videos of common EV drag races versus ICE supercars but very few on EV versus ICE on the Nürburgring.

 

[Peartree]

Which is why there are lots of videos of common EV drag races versus ICE supercars but very few on EV versus ICE on the Nürburgring.

But there *are* some.

 

[jderimig]

But there *are* some.

The Plaid record lap was 7:25.
Porsche 911 GT2 6:43 (But you need to spend about $400K to buy one)
Jaguar XE SV Project 8 7:23, a bargain at $188K

For non-production and prototypes
Fastest EV: Volkswagen ID.R (electric record) – 6:05.336
Fastest overall: Porsche 919 Hybrid Evo (all-time record) – 5:19.546 minutes
above as of 2021

 

[boatgeek]

I'm not believing that, and I don't think other people believe it if they think about it, but the big unanswered question is how much difference is there?
It stands to reason that if you have an electric blender it will take a certain amount of electricity for a certain task. I've worked on some water pump systems that use 3000 hp electric motors, lets put one of those on a stand and put the blender mechanism on the end of it. Will it make the same milkshake with the same amount of electricity as the original blender? I don't think it will, I'm not sure if the amount of electricity used by the original blender would even rotate the 3000hp motor.

Going back to this picture:

Top speed on a Leaf is around 106 mph, so let's just make the math simple and say that 10,000 RPM on the motor is 100 mph by the time you do all the math on the reduction ratio and tire diameter. It's probably a little lower RPM for that speed, but close enough. Off the line to ~25-30 MPH, you're limited by motor torque rather than total output power, as the motor goes from 80-ish% efficiency to 88% or so. At that point, torque goes down on a constant-hp curve until you hit top efficiency at ~60 mph. That matches my driving experience that it's really fast off the line and then starts getting less oomph around 35-40 mph. For the record, the Leaf's 0-60 is a relatively sedate 7.4 seconds.

To take a less extreme version of the fractional-hp-blender-vs-3000-hp-water-pump analogy, let's assume you put the same motor in an electric go-kart that's 1/4 the weight and drag of a Leaf, but has the same reduction ratio and wheel diameter. The go-kart would have supercar-like performance, with 0-60 to match a Tesla Plaid, likely limited by how well you can stick the tires to the pavement. If you put the Leaf next to the go-kart and had them both run a 0-60 but with the go-kart running at the same speed as the Leaf, the go-kart would use roughly 1/4 of the total kWh as the Leaf in the race. It would be a little more than 1/4 since the go-kart would likely be in a slightly less efficient range of motor power output, around 92% efficiency at 60 mph.

To finish out our thought experiment, now get a second go-kart that has a motor 1/4 of the horsepower of the Leaf. It should have roughly the same performance as the Leaf and 1/4 the energy consumption. If you ran the supercar go-kart and the sedate go-cart on a parallel 0-60 run, the two go-karts would have nearly the same energy consumption. The supercar would have slightly more since it's operating in a slightly less efficient range of the motor, but they'd be close.

In the same way, a Tesla Plaid on a highway onramp just behind a Nissan Leaf is going to use roughly the same amount of power to get up to speed as the Leaf (well, except for differences in curb weight), even though they have the capability to go 0-60 in a couple of seconds. How often do you get to actually go 0-60 in a couple of seconds?

 

[jderimig]

Going back to this picture:


In the same way, a Tesla Plaid on a highway onramp just behind a Nissan Leaf is going to use roughly the same amount of power to get up to speed as the Leaf (well, except for differences in curb weight), even though they have the capability to go 0-60 in a couple of seconds. How often do you get to actually go 0-60 in a couple of seconds?

The Plaid would use 45% more power just from the mass difference. (not due to the max power rating of the electrical system).

If the Plaid accelerated to 60 mph in 2 secs and the Leaf accelerated to 60mph in 7 secs, against the Plaid would use 45% more energy just due to mass difference. The power rating has no effect on energy usage other than generally more power requires more weight. Its the weight difference that is mainly responsible for more energy usage.

 

[SolarYellow]

Its the weight difference that is mainly responsible for more energy usage.

It also uses more tire and brake. The latest frontier of regulation is tire and brake emissions. There are pending new regs regarding brake emissions in the ECE that are effectively a backdoor mandate for electrification (transparently, if you look past the title of the document). (Sorta) sneaky bastards.

 

[cerving]

My daughter's Tuscon is a really nice car. In the case of Toyota the general buying public doesn't seem to mind a car with a power train that lasts forever and a car with high resale value.

I'm driving Hyundai Accent #4, bought in 2018, got 105K on it. The first four each lasted close to 200K before repair costs exceeded the cost of buying a new one. My truck is a Tacoma... I expect it to be passed on to my children.

It's probably too early to tell how reliable electric cars are going to be, but all those high-tech gizmos in them have proven to be problematic over the years. Ask Mercedes... they used to be the most reliable car out there before they got all techy, and now their overall reliability is below average. And it's also too early to tell how long those battery packs are going to last... they may very well bring down the average age of cars on the road when all is said and done. That's a good thing for Big Auto, of course, not so good for us.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I'm driving Hyundai Accent #4, bought in 2018, got 105K on it. The first four each lasted close to 200K before repair costs exceeded the cost of buying a new one. My truck is a Tacoma... I expect it to be passed on to my children.

It's probably too early to tell how reliable electric cars are going to be, but all those high-tech gizmos in them have proven to be problematic over the years. Ask Mercedes... they used to be the most reliable car out there before they got all techy, and now their overall reliability is below average. And it's also too early to tell how long those battery packs are going to last... they may very well bring down the average age of cars on the road when all is said and done. That's a good thing for Big Auto, of course, not so good for us.

A pure electric car has a pretty simple drivetrain compared to an internal combustion car. And there is a lot less maintenance required. No fluids and filters for one example. There’s a lot less friction and heat involved. Most (maybe all?) don’t have a transmission the way ICE cars do. All of that should last a long, long time with much less routine maintenance.

As you pointed out, the batteries may be a different matter. But I think battery technology is still not mature and has a lot of room to improve, and it will probably advance pretty quickly to bring costs down. Overall, I think EVs will have a lower cost of ownership than most ICE cars, especially when the battery tech improves.

Hybrids, on the other hand, have the liabilities of BOTH ICE and EVs. There’s the maintenance required for the ICE motor and transmission, plus the battery issue with the EV motor. I have a hybrid and knew there could be issues eventually, but I use the vehicle pretty gently and get the routine maintenance, and I expect it to last a long time.

 

[jderimig]

Powertrains now are pretty reliable and apart from oil changes maintenance free. New transmissions are sealed. 200K is pretty common. Brakes, batteries, tires, structs and ball joints/tie rods are where the expenses are. Then the car rusts out. Today's engines are pretty much bulletproof as long as there is oil in crankcase and you change it once in a while

The major expenses in ICE cars are primarily suspension, steering and surprisingly infotainment systems. All common to EV's too.

I may be lucky but my last 4 cars (2001 Olds, 2005 Honda Pilot, 2008 Toyota Camry (all >170K miles) and Volvo S60 (100K) only needed tires, brake pads, oil and touch-up paint and the occasional shock/struct, wheel bearing replacement.

 

[boatgeek]

Powertrains now are pretty reliable and apart from oil changes maintenance free. New transmissions are sealed. 200K is pretty common. Brakes, batteries, tires, structs and ball joints/tie rods are where the expenses are. Then the car rusts out. Today's engines are pretty much bulletproof as long as there is oil in crankcase and you change it once in a while

The major expenses in ICE cars are primarily suspension, steering and surprisingly infotainment systems. All common to EV's too.

I may be lucky but my last 4 cars (2001 Olds, 2005 Honda Pilot, 2008 Toyota Camry (all >170K miles) and Volvo S60 (100K) only needed tires, brake pads, oil and touch-up paint and the occasional shock/struct, wheel bearing replacement.

EVs are pretty gentle on brakes too. How long does a typical car last in OH before rusting to junk? We get snow 2-3 times a year here, so I'm totally unfamiliar with that issue. People coming here from salt country sometimes ask if they're on a movie set because there's so many older cars around.

 

[tsmith1315]

How often do you get to actually go 0-60 in a couple of seconds

Every time I drove it, if I had one!

 

[jderimig]

EVs are pretty gentle on brakes too. How long does a typical car last in OH before rusting to junk? We get snow 2-3 times a year here, so I'm totally unfamiliar with that issue. People coming here from salt country sometimes ask if they're on a movie set because there's so many older cars around.

Its gotten a lot better with some of the anti-corrosion body practices. Where I live salt is used less. My 2005 Honda is just starting to stain the driveway. I think 10-15 years before the battle turns in favor of the corrosion army. Climate change helps with that

 

[rharshberger]

EVs are pretty gentle on brakes too. How long does a typical car last in OH before rusting to junk? We get snow 2-3 times a year here, so I'm totally unfamiliar with that issue. People coming here from salt country sometimes ask if they're on a movie set because there's so many older cars around.

Brakes is once every so often event....once in 108k on the 2010 Mini, once in 135k 2004 F250 (but getting close to needing it again), wifes Chrysler 2018 Pacifica not even close with only 50k on it, my last 3 vehicles only needed them every 50-60k (yes thats more than the average 40k ish), but brakes are easy to do yourself with minimal tools, and usually costs me less than $200 per vehicle. Most Transmissions may be "sealed" and "good for 200K" but my BIL makes good money off people who believe that (get them checked at least every 75k or better yet serviced). Oil Changes every 5k for turbocharged vehicles and on then newer vehicles when the Oil Life meter gets to 20%, the truck 2x year regardless ( I dont put that many miles on it, but it does pull the travel trailer). Maintenance on all three of our vehicles costs typically $500-$700/year, not including tires every 5 years (but EVs need those too). My 20 year old truck has some big "maintenance coming up" will probably cost me $2k-ish total for new U-joints, brakes and rotors, ball joints and tie rod ends as well as new shocks, and new spark plugs (could cost more if they are still the original plugs).

 

[bjphoenix]

A pure electric car has a pretty simple drivetrain compared to an internal combustion car. And there is a lot less maintenance required. No fluids and filters for one example. There’s a lot less friction and heat involved. Most (maybe all?) don’t have a transmission the way ICE cars do. All of that should last a long, long time with much less routine maintenance.

The bits are different but I understand that the Tesla motor is liquid cooled. The motor also runs at fairly high rpm so it has a substantial gearbox to reduce the speed down to tire speed. There is a channel on youtube that has spent considerable time dissecting a Tesla to show how everything works. It was much more complicated than I expected.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

The bits are different but I understand that the Tesla motor is liquid cooled. The motor also runs at fairly high rpm so it has a substantial gearbox to reduce the speed down to tire speed. There is a channel on youtube that has spent considerable time dissecting a Tesla to show how everything works. It was much more complicated than I expected.

Interesting. I’ll have to check that out.

 

[Cape Byron]

Most (maybe all?) don’t have a transmission the way ICE cars do. All of that should last a long, long time with much less routine maintenance.

Toyota is working on a manual transmission EV.

 

[CalebJ]

Toyota is working on a manual transmission EV.

Sort of - it's just stimulating the behavior of a manual without creating multiple true gear selections.

 

[Cape Byron]

Sort of - it's just stimulating the behavior of a manual without creating multiple true gear selections.

Damn. I thought it was going to be a real shifter. We’ll, that’s poop.

And before anyone says, “Why would you want a manual gearbox?” I’ll say, “Because.”

 

[cbrarick]

I'm guessing the best answer to the OP's question is to try to outrun the fire in the batteries.....

 

[CalebJ]

I'm guessing the best answer to the OP's question is to try to outrun the fire in the batteries.....

The fire that is less likely in an EV than an ICE?

 

[cbrarick]

At least when I put out the ICE's fire it doesn't generate 10,000 gallons of hazardous materials liquid waste

 

[bjphoenix]

Sort of - it's just stimulating the behavior of a manual without creating multiple true gear selections.

Something like 15 years ago I met a guy with a homemade EV. He had an old VW Rabbit that he had put an electric motor in and he had assembled his own battery and electronic controls. He put the electric motor in the front, connected to the ICE transaxle. I didn't get many details of the setup, I seem to remember he said that he could run it in any of the gears and it didn't matter that much for city driving.

 

[teepot]

I would use the 0-60 in 2 seconds on every on ramp. I love on ramps. In the Mustang, 214K miles now, I go for it. Back off at 80. Same with the Explorer. It is always in sport mode. It is very quick. The Mustang and the Explorer both sound great. The EV's I have heard sound like golf carts.

 

[DAllen]

Answer THIS question :

"Why do EV's need to accelerate like "supercars", while having only a 300 mile +/- range, when having only 50% of that power would DOUBLE their driving range ?"

Why do you care what people do with their cars that you do not own?

 

[Ez2cDave]

Why do you care what people do with their cars that you do not own?

Safety, for one thing . . . Let me explain . . .

The next time you are out in daily traffic, notice the "behavior" of the Drivers around you.

Some of them are docile and very passive in their driving . . . The rest have varying degrees of aggression, all the way up to "full-on road rage". Some are downright idiotic / insane, quite frankly.

Now put increasing numbers of drivers in 400 HP EV's, intermingled with slower ICE's and some "supercar EV's", in traffic . . .

OK . . . A question : "Who is who, among the various vehicles ?" Answer : No one knows, until things start "getting dicey", in traffic. Now, take the various "personalities" of all of the Drivers and put them behind the wheel of 400 HP "instant torque" EV's.

Throw in some "cutting people off", "brake-checking" the impatient guy tailgating you, swerving in & out of traffic, etc.

"Let the games begin" and, hopefully, everyone survives to repeat everything later that same day, or on another day !

That's what I mean about "Safety" !

Dave F.

 

[Grog6]

You can;t really put out a lithium fire unless it's in an enclosed area, and then if it's in plastics, it still won't go out. I dealt with lithium in a job 40 years ago, we made germanium boules, and ion implanted them to make diodes. We used Lithium metal to implant. 8am, first cup of coffee. I need the vent hood, and the sink is full of crap, I turn on the faucet to was out the sink, and it freaking lit up like a magnesium flare. New guy initiation, lol.

 

[Cape Byron]

A question : "Who is who, among the various vehicles ?" Answer : No one knows, until things start "getting dicey", in traffic.

When you ride a motorcycle, you adopt the attitude that everyone on the road is a homicidal maniac with little to no driving skills, vision or morals.

So... just pretend you're riding a motorcycle.

 

[Ez2cDave]

When you ride a motorcycle, you adopt the attitude that everyone on the road is a homicidal maniac with little to no driving skills, vision or morals.

So... just pretend you're riding a motorcycle.

I've had quite a few friends killed on motorcycles . . .

My drunk, idiot son-in-law ( I never did like him ) lost his life on his motorcycle, in a head-on collision with a FORD F-150, 6 years ago. He was riding with his friends ( also drunk ) and decided to "show off" on a blind hill, coming off a curve ( he was traveling uphill ). They barely had time to swerve off the road, themselves. My son-in-law was thrown about 15 feet into the air ( eyewitness account ) on impact, The force was sufficient to shatter his helmet, like an eggshell. Police estimated the two vehicles met at a closing speed of 130 - 140 mph. No motorcycles for me.