Government mandates, forcing and coercion.

[user 30299]

It's my understanding that the Dutch, and the States of Louisiana and Florida are looking into
the Escher Hydroelectric Power System. With their lands below sea level, or slowly subsiding
below sea level, they can allow the seawater to pass through turbines in the protective seawalls
and provide clean/green energy. Let gravity do its thing.

Below is a picture of the basic Escher System.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Remember that he co2 equation. CO2 produced — CO2 absorbed by the environment = change. Our atmosphere is 77% nitrogen 21% oxygen. That leaves 2% for all the other gases. Co2 has gone from 0.3% to 0.4% of our atmosphere over the last 100 years. Maybe something else is going on. Just my opinion

The concentration of CO2 has gone from 280 ppm pre-industrial revolution to 421 ppm today (.0280% to .0421%). The amount is very small, but it does make a difference. I don’t think anyone disputes the fact anymore that more CO2 traps more heat in the atmosphere and that global temperatures are going up. That’s pretty much a given now. Now people dispute whether the higher temperatures are causing the weather extremes we are seeing (or whether these floods, droughts, fires, storms, etc. really are extremes or not).

It sounds like you are acknowledging the weird weather but saying maybe something else is going on and it’s not CO2. There may be other factors involved, but I think the main reason for the crazy bad weather is higher global temperatures caused by higher CO2.

 

[Bravo52]

It’s clearly not common.

it's more common than "never".

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I am all in favor of the free market guiding where people choose to live.

Of course. And I think the free market is starting to say you can move to the Florida coast if you want, but you might not be able to afford the insurance or get a mortgage. And you might have trouble selling your house in the future.

 

[jderimig]

Of course. And I think the free market is starting to say you can move to the Florida coast if you want, but you might not be able to afford the insurance or get a mortgage. And you might have trouble selling your house in the future.

And the free market will solve the problem with building codes and incentives for building weather robust structures that are more loss resistant. Human innovation is breath-taking. Florida will be fine and continue to thrive.

Also a significant portion of Florida's insurance problem is litigation and fraud.

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2023...me-insurance-rates-keep-going-up/70127553007/

 

[user 30299]

The concentration of CO2 has gone from 280 ppm pre-industrial revolution to 421 ppm today (.0280% to .0421%). The amount is very small, but it does make a difference. I don’t think anyone disputes the fact anymore that more CO2 traps more heat in the atmosphere and that global temperatures are going up. That’s pretty much a given now. Now people dispute whether the higher temperatures are causing the weather extremes we are seeing (or whether these floods, droughts, fires, storms, etc. really are extremes or not).

It sounds like you are acknowledging the weird weather but saying maybe something else is going on and it’s not CO2. There may be other factors involved, but I think the main reason for the crazy bad weather is higher global temperatures caused by higher CO2.

Your higher CO2 and temperatures are also dependent on (greatly influenced by) the levels of forested areas. There has been
roughly a 35% loss of forests in the last 200-plus years. They have a large influence on water cycles and ground temps. And
we of course have the carbon-capture feature trees have to offer.

Forests have a cooling effect and offer natural protection from the elements. Eons in the making. What better time tested
system could you ask for.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

And the free market will solve the problem with building codes and incentives for building weather robust structures that are more loss resistant. Human innovation is breath-taking. Florida will be fine and continue to thrive.

We don't need government intervention and mandates, circling back to the topic.

Also a significant portion of Florida's insurance problem is litigation and fraud.

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2023...me-insurance-rates-keep-going-up/70127553007/

Building codes aren’t typically a free-market thing. I think “codes”, by definition, are government mandated.

Anyway, we have a difference of opinion on the future of Florida. I think they are going to have a worsening problem with storms and flooding. I don’t think they are going to be able to engineer their way out of it. And if they can, it’s going to cost them a lot of money.

 

[cerving]

And the free market will solve the problem with building codes and incentives for building weather robust structures that are more loss resistant. Human innovation is breath-taking. Florida will be fine and continue to thrive.

We don't need government intervention and mandates, circling back to the topic.

Also a significant portion of Florida's insurance problem is litigation and fraud.

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2023...me-insurance-rates-keep-going-up/70127553007/

I don't know about the "litigation and fraud" thing, so I'll let that go...

However, if someone wants to live in a high-risk area (beach house right on the coast, up in a mountainous fire zone, next to a river, on the edge of a cliff with a "view", etc.) then they should be the ones bearing the insurance cost burden, not those of us who live in the suburbs. Like it or not, insurance is a shared cost, so those who are unlikely to use it end up subsidizing those who do, because of their "choice" of living style. What always ticks me off is when their house burns/slides/floods and they're interviewed, they never say that they're going to move... they always say, "Oh, this is where I live, so I'm just going to rebuild. Just like I did 10 years ago." I get to pay for their damage... often more than once.

(BTW, yes, I understand how insurance works... my medical premiums are paying for somebody else's bad life choices, too.)

 

[jderimig]

The concentration of CO2 has gone from 280 ppm pre-industrial revolution to 421 ppm today (.0280% to .0421%). The amount is very small, but it does make a difference. I don’t think anyone disputes the fact anymore that more CO2 traps more heat in the atmosphere and that global temperatures are going up. That’s pretty much a given now. Now people dispute whether the higher temperatures are causing the weather extremes we are seeing (or whether these floods, droughts, fires, storms, etc. really are extremes or not).

It sounds like you are acknowledging the weird weather but saying maybe something else is going on and it’s not CO2. There may be other factors involved, but I think the main reason for the crazy bad weather is higher global temperatures caused by higher CO2.

Water vapor is also a factor (much larger GHG than CO2) and there is higher percentage of water vapor in the air from late 2022 on from El Nino and the Tonga eruption. There are several peer reviewed studies that suggests that those 2 factors are largely responsible for this years minor elevations of temperature. We'll see next year what happens, less El Nino and hopefully less massive volcanic eruptions.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/to...precedented-amount-of-water-into-stratosphere

 

[jderimig]

Building codes aren’t typically a free-market thing. I think “codes”, by definition, are government mandated.

Got me on that one.

 

[speed]

When you say “no one died”, you mean no one died from smoke where you live? Can you really be sure? People do die from poor air quality.

And people have definitely died in those fires that sent you that smoke. And hundreds have lost their homes and property. And hundreds of thousands of people have had to evacuate. And about 67,000 square miles have burned already this year in Canada, about 5% of all of Canada’s forest land, and the most ever in one year in recorded history.

But that’s probably all within the margin of normal variation, right? Perfectly normal, for sure. And you personally are enjoying the sunsets, so it’s all good.

Yup, it's all good! I love my life!

 

[speed]

The concentration of CO2 has gone from 280 ppm pre-industrial revolution to 421 ppm today (.0280% to .0421%). The amount is very small, but it does make a difference. I don’t think anyone disputes the fact anymore that more CO2 traps more heat in the atmosphere and that global temperatures are going up. That’s pretty much a given now. Now people dispute whether the higher temperatures are causing the weather extremes we are seeing (or whether these floods, droughts, fires, storms, etc. really are extremes or not).

It sounds like you are acknowledging the weird weather but saying maybe something else is going on and it’s not CO2. There may be other factors involved, but I think the main reason for the crazy bad weather is higher global temperatures caused by higher CO2.

Plants love higher quantities of Co2. Its good for the planet and allows us to grow more food. Those plants also return oxygen to our atmosphere. Win win...
Does anyone know exactly how much Co2 is too much?

 

[speed]

I don't know about the "litigation and fraud" thing, so I'll let that go...

However, if someone wants to live in a high-risk area (beach house right on the coast, up in a mountainous fire zone, next to a river, on the edge of a cliff with a "view", etc.) then they should be the ones bearing the insurance cost burden, not those of us who live in the suburbs. Like it or not, insurance is a shared cost, so those who are unlikely to use it end up subsidizing those who do, because of their "choice" of living style. What always ticks me off is when their house burns/slides/floods and they're interviewed, they never say that they're going to move... they always say, "Oh, this is where I live, so I'm just going to rebuild. Just like I did 10 years ago." I get to pay for their damage... often more than once.

(BTW, yes, I understand how insurance works... my medical premiums are paying for somebody else's bad life choices, too.)

Don't buy insurance.

 

[cerving]

Don't buy insurance.

Not a gamble I'm willing to take, in the case of some types of insurance (i.e. auto insurance) it's mandated and you don't have a choice. You wanna play, you gotta pay... the previous email was basically just venting.

 

[speed]

Not a gamble I'm willing to take, in the case of some types of insurance (i.e. auto insurance) it's mandated and you don't have a choice. You wanna play, you gotta pay... the previous email was basically just venting.

You can buy a bond instead of car insurance. It's much cheaper and the law allows it. Your bond covers any vehicle you drive or ride, so multiple policies are not required. When the California legislature passed the must have auto insurance law, tge ACLU sued because it was a gift to the insurance companies. The legislature capitulated and inserted the bond clause.

Eta: come out to MDARS on the 23rd!!

 

[bjphoenix]

Florida’s geology is different from Amsterdam’s. Florida’s ground is water permeable, so dikes don’t work. The water just comes up through the ground. And even if they did work, what are you going to do? Put a dike around the whole state?

My previous house had soil issues and was jacked up about a food. That would be enough to cover almost 9 decades. My neighbor's house was jacked up more than mine. To go to his front porch you went up 3 steps. He said when the house was built the sidewalk went straight onto the porch.

 

[kuririn]

My previous house had soil issues and was jacked up about a food. That would be enough to cover almost 9 decades.

But your kids wouldn't be able to play football on the lawn.
Maybe water polo.

 

[kuririn]

If you drive out to the north shore here you will see many homes near the beach that are built on stilts.
Winter swells can inundate beachfront property easily.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

My previous house had soil issues and was jacked up about a food. That would be enough to cover almost 9 decades. My neighbor's house was jacked up more than mine. To go to his front porch you went up 3 steps. He said when the house was built the sidewalk went straight onto the porch.

Yeah, I’m not so sure about 9 decades. In the past 10 years, the sea level rise around Florida, parts of the Gulf and parts of the Atlantic coast has accelerated to about 3 inches per decade, and in some places as much as 5 inches. So a foot is maybe 25 to 40 years. When you leave the house in the morning, maybe you can swim to work. Do a cannonball off the front porch!

 

[b.wieting]

I don't know about the "litigation and fraud" thing, so I'll let that go...

However, if someone wants to live in a high-risk area (beach house right on the coast, up in a mountainous fire zone, next to a river, on the edge of a cliff with a "view", etc.) then they should be the ones bearing the insurance cost burden, not those of us who live in the suburbs. Like it or not, insurance is a shared cost, so those who are unlikely to use it end up subsidizing those who do, because of their "choice" of living style. What always ticks me off is when their house burns/slides/floods and they're interviewed, they never say that they're going to move... they always say, "Oh, this is where I live, so I'm just going to rebuild. Just like I did 10 years ago." I get to pay for their damage... often more than once.

(BTW, yes, I understand how insurance works... my medical premiums are paying for somebody else's bad life choices, too.)

And your car insurance premium pays for the 1 out of 3 who don't have (pay for) insurance.
An example of the "free market" (individual choices) in action.

Soap box: I've always thought it would be fairly simple (and fraud resistant) to add a gasoline tax rebated to those with proof of insurance...

 

[Sooner Boomer]

One issue that I have with mandating electric cars is that they may not be "the" solution to the carbon problem. Hydrogen, either burned or in fuel cells, could be a highly viable option.

With respect, I disagree (in part). *ANY* internal combustion depending on atmospheric oxygen, regardless of fuel, will produce NOx pollutants. Hydrogen might be an "option", but it's not a clean one.

 

[cls]

(BTW, yes, I understand how insurance works... my medical premiums are paying for somebody else's bad life choices, too.)

(edit: not you specifically, Chuck, rather all folks toying with this idea)

... until it's your turn. oh Mr Perfect, hope you never have any accidents, never develop any random medical issue, never need a $7000 ambulance ride. your life must be charmed, your ancestors' genetics the very pinnacle of evolutionary perfection, wo no moral judgement there! how about this instead: get some insurance, we'll be there for you.

 

[Tyeeking]

Yeah, I’m not so sure about 9 decades. In the past 10 years, the sea level rise around Florida, parts of the Gulf and parts of the Atlantic coast has accelerated to about 3 inches per decade, and in some places as much as 5 inches. So a foot is maybe 25 to 40 years. When you leave the house in the morning, maybe you can swim to work. Do a cannonball off the front porch!

Got a cite on that claim? Also I’m curious on the physics of how sea level rises significantly higher on one part of a coast than another.

 

[cerving]

With respect, I disagree (in part). *ANY* internal combustion depending on atmospheric oxygen, regardless of fuel, will produce NOx pollutants. Hydrogen might be an "option", but it's not a clean one.

If you burn H2 in air, yes, you're generating NOx, but it's still "carbon free". There is no such thing as a "clean" source of power... somewhere along the line, you're doing something to the environment, i.e mining, refining, processing, damming, emitting, etc. The issue is how badly you destroy the environment in doing so... greenhouse gases apparently are worse than lithium mining in the eyes of most.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Got a cite on that claim? Also I’m curious on the physics of how sea level rises significantly higher on one part of a coast than another.

There are lots of sources for this information if you do any kind of search for sea level rise in Florida. Here’s one of many.

https://climatecenter.fsu.edu/topic...s across Florida are,based on tide gauge data.

Satellite altimetry data indicate that the average rate of sea level rise in the Southeast U.S. region has been about 3.0 mm (0.12 inches) per year since the early 1990s, which is roughly equal to the global rate of sea level rise. Sea levels across Florida are as much as 8 inches higher than they were in 1950, and the rate of sea level rise is accelerating. For instance, sea levels around Virginia Key have risen by 8 inches since 1950, but they have been rising by 1 inch every 3 years over the past 10 years, based on tide gauge data. This acceleration in sea level rise is projected to continue. In the same area around Miami, sea levels increased 6 inches over the last 31 years, from 1985 to 2016, but they are expected to rise another 6 inches in half that time, over the next 15 years, according to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers high scenario project

The physics of how local relative sea level rise can be different from average global sea level rise has do do with local variations in ocean temperature, salinity, local currents, land subsidence, and other factors. Weirdly enough, even local gravitational variation and changes can affect local sea levels.

It’s probably a combination of factors, and I’m not sure if anyone knows for sure all the reasons why local relative sea level rise along the Florida coasts has accelerated as fast as it has in the last decade. Most of the things I’ve read about it have said it has come as a surprise. But it is definitely happening and being measured. The rate is now about 3-4 inches per decade, and at least one source mentioned certain locations having a rate of about 5 inches per decade.

I only heard about this a couple weeks ago when the recent hurricane was coming ashore. It was mentioned in several broadcasts about storm surge. It was the first I heard of it, and when I looked it up, there were lots of sources.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

If you burn H2 in air, yes, you're generating NOx, but it's still "carbon free". There is no such thing as a "clean" source of power... somewhere along the line, you're doing something to the environment, i.e mining, refining, processing, damming, emitting, etc. The issue is how badly you destroy the environment in doing so... greenhouse gases apparently are worse than lithium mining in the eyes of most.

There can be pollution in the "upstream" (manufacturing) procees. Some car manufacturers seem to be making a really good effort - ie. BMW plant in S. Carolina. Fuel cells seem to be the best solution for a "fuel burning" power source. Consumers may not have much choice about what goes on upstream, but they certainly affect what goes on downstream (how/what they drive).

 

[cwbullet]

I am going to lock this thread. It has run its course.

Many of the topics on this thread are near third rail topics and border on a religion so we do not need to continue this discussion.