ICEs and EVs

Shop deals on ebay
eggtimer rocketry
Advertise with us
the rocketry show
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
speed said:
Having had my 2nd ev burn to the ground, ill stick with gas from now on. Only new ev's will be sold in some states, but ice vehicles will be around for decades. The government might try to regulate gas, but that won't go over very well and the politicians know that.
Click to expand...
In June you told us your 'speed control fried'. Now you're saying you bought another electric vehicle and it also spontaneously burned to the ground? That's some eyebrow raising bad luck!
 
Ez2cDave said:
Really ? What about all of the states that are mandating EV's ?

https://dec.vermont.gov/air-quality/mobile-sources/zev

QUOTE :

"To date, 13 states have adopted the ZEV Program (California, Colorado, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington)."

END QUOTE :

https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-12/charging-into-the-future-the-transition-to-electric-vehicles.htm

https://www.mesapress.com/opinion/2022/10/17/california-residents-cant-turn-their-air-conditioning-on-but-will-be-forced-to-drive-electric-vehicles

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisc...alifornias-electric-car-mandate-clmate-change

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/12...ectric-vehicles-phasing-out-combustion-engine

Dave F.
Click to expand...
I saw nowhere in the Vermont link that they are mandating EVs but they are promoting them. There was no mention of banning ICE vehicles.
 
Greg Furtman said:
I saw nowhere in the Vermont link that they are mandating EVs but they are promoting them. There was no mention of banning ICE vehicles.
Click to expand...
"Vermont ZEV Action Plan - In 2013, Vermont and seven other states agreed to create a collaborative Zero Emission Vehicle program aimed at putting 3.3 million ZEVs on the road by 2025. A Vermont Zero Emission Vehicle Action Plan has been created in response, which includes Vermont-specific actions that address the goals put forth in the eight-state action plan. As a result of the Vermont ZEV Action Plan, the Guidance for Requirements to be Included in State Grants for Publicly Funded Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) was created."

https://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/f...documents/Guidance_for_Public_EVSE_grants.pdf

1688681178050.png
 
Ez2cDave said:
"Vermont ZEV Action Plan - In 2013, Vermont and seven other states agreed to create a collaborative Zero Emission Vehicle program aimed at putting 3.3 million ZEVs on the road by 2025. A Vermont Zero Emission Vehicle Action Plan has been created in response, which includes Vermont-specific actions that address the goals put forth in the eight-state action plan. As a result of the Vermont ZEV Action Plan, the Guidance for Requirements to be Included in State Grants for Publicly Funded Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) was created."

https://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/f...documents/Guidance_for_Public_EVSE_grants.pdf

View attachment 590714
Click to expand...
There's a lot about goals and promotion in there. Not a word about mandating or banning.
 
CalebJ said:
There's a lot about goals and promotion in there. Not a word about mandating or banning.
Click to expand...

OK . . . https://evstatistics.com/2021/03/current-and-future-likely-zev-and-or-lev-states

QUOTE :

"California has a unique authority under Section 209 of the Clean Air Act to maintain motor vehicle emission standards that are stricter than the federal standards, as long as the federal government has issued a waiver.
  • California refers to its motor vehicle emission standards as the Low-Emission Vehicle (LEV) standards.
  • Additionally, as part of its larger Advanced Clean Cars Program, California’s Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) program requires major manufacturers of passenger cars and light trucks (up to 8,500 pounds) to attain a certain number of ZEV credits depending on the number of vehicles produced and delivered for sale in the state. ZEVs include plug-in electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles.
Other states may adopt California’s standards under Section 177 of the Clean Air Act, but they may not develop independent standards:
  • As of February 2021, nine other states have adopted both California’s ZEV program as well as the LEV standards: Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Vermont.
  • Colorado will adopt both LEV and ZEV standards for the 2022 vehicle model years.
  • Three other states — Delaware, Pennsylvania, and Washington – and the District of Columbia are following California’s LEV standards, but have not adopted the ZEV program. Together, all 15 of these states are referred to as “Section 177 states.”
END QUOTE :

Vermont has adopted California's "ZEV Program", therefor their position is the same as California . . . Otherwise, they would not be in compliance but, since Vermont has adopted it, they are acting in unison. California is ALL ABOUT "mandating" & "banning" . . . Vermont has adopted their standards.

Dave F.

1688683347875.png
 
Last edited:
SDramstad said:
All that was was charging infrastructure requirements. Nothing about banning ICE cars.
Click to expand...
OK . . . Straight talk . . . California's ZEV Program has been adopted by Vermont :

https://dec.vermont.gov/air-quality/mobile-sources/zev

This is what the ZEV Program they adopted is about, basically . . . a "TECHNOLOGY-FORCING COMPONENT" . . . FORCING = MANDATE !

QUOTE :

"Vermont’s Low Emission Vehicle (LEV) program, authorized under section 177 of the Clean Air Act, has been a centerpiece of Vermont’s air quality efforts since 1996. The Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) program, which is a technology-forcing component of the LEV program, has been a major contributor to the successful commercialization of hybrid-electric vehicles and ultra-low-emission technologies. To date, 13 states have adopted the ZEV Program (California, Colorado, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington).

END QUOTE:

1688684985844.png
 
CalebJ said:
Bold, color changes, and exclamation points really help sell your argument when facts fail. Well played.
Click to expand...
All of that information is from quoted, reliable sources, whether you agree with it, or not.

Face it . . . Vermont has adopted California's policies, as have several other states. In doing so, they agree with this . . . Period !

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2022-08-25/california-poised-to-ban-sale-gas-powered-cars-2035

Cite your sources for your statements, if you can . . . I did !
 
CalebJ said:
Not a single quote or site you've posted has implied that Vermont is banning ICE or mandating EV.
Click to expand...
Vermont has adopted California's ZEV policies . . . California's ZEV polices mandate EV's and ban the sales of ICE vehicles . . . Fact !

Vermont has adopted CA's policies . . . CA's policies mandate EV's and ban sales of EV's . . . Therefor, VT's policies are CA's policies.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035

Another concern . . .

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/30/1152627751/new-cars-in-california-must-be-zero-emissions-by-2035-can-the-power-grid-handle
 
Last edited:
boatgeek said:
To be fair, at least CA and WA are outright banning sales of new ICE passenger cars in 2035. Existing cars will not be taken off the road.
Click to expand...
That's 12 years away. I'm not sure about WA but by then there might not be very many people left in CA.
 
bjphoenix said:
That's 12 years away. I'm not sure about WA but by then there might not be very many people left in CA.
Click to expand...
Washington population growth was three times the overall US in 2022 (1.2% vs. 0.4%). CA was down 0.6% over the same timeframe, but that’s a far cry from having no people by 2035.
 
Lots of interesting views on EV here. I have thought about getting one as my family daily routine is very low miles (8 year old car with 52k miles and 18 year old pickup with 105k). Charging being a major concern for a lot of people got me to looking. There are only 2 charging stations within 50 miles of me listed on a google search. One is on the local college campus that I would probably get a parking ticket if I tried to use. The other appears to be a the Nissan dealer. Not where I want to spend my time charging.
I would have to upgrade the electrical service at my home to add a decent charger. My home only has 200 amp service and it is all electric including heat. I could probably get by with a 110 charger every day as miles driven are low. However, that yearly vacation drive is the deal breaker. I could probably get to the mountains or the beach on a charge. But, personally haven't seen any charging spots at any of the hotels I stay at or condos. Don't want to spend my vacation trying to charge the car and need a full charge to get home.
I have a small solar experiment/project as a hobby at home so I do understand batteries and how much power anything requiring heat consumes. Who wants to wear a coat in the car on cold days just to have battery for range. Is the a/c in an electric like the stop/start a/c on my gas car - compressor cuts off till it starts getting warm then the car restarts? No problem there. I eliminated that feature. Can you on an EV? Just my thoughts.
 
gidgettw said:
Lots of interesting views on EV here. I have thought about getting one as my family daily routine is very low miles (8 year old car with 52k miles and 18 year old pickup with 105k). Charging being a major concern for a lot of people got me to looking. There are only 2 charging stations within 50 miles of me listed on a google search. One is on the local college campus that I would probably get a parking ticket if I tried to use. The other appears to be a the Nissan dealer. Not where I want to spend my time charging.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you there.
The vast majority of EV owners (100% of those I know personally) are charging at home. For the reasons of extreme convenience and cost (public chargers can be randomly expensive. All Tesla SuperChargers are over-priced).

gidgettw said:
I would have to upgrade the electrical service at my home to add a decent charger. My home only has 200 amp service and it is all electric including heat. I could probably get by with a 110 charger every day as miles driven are low.
Click to expand...

My home is also wired for 200amp service, and I did NOT have to rewire any circuits to add an L2 charger in the garage.
I reused my electric dryer 380V plug (seating vacant after I had upgraded to a gas dryer a few years prior), and plugged a Siemens L2 30amp charger in its place about 10 years ago (circuit is wired for 40 amps). That charger (technically and EVSE), is still working just fine. It cost me ~$500 for that thing a decade ago, and a few minutes of drilling a hole through garage door to the washing room on the other side of the wall to rout the cable. Then a few more minutes to mount the brackets to hang the unit on the wall. A 1-beer job all-around.

These days, you can get an L2 charger for 1/2 of what it cost me 10 years ago: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=ev+charger&crid=2SQIWDOMIJDW3&sprefix=ev+charg,aps,241&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Just make sure you buy an L2 charger with long enough cable, as those very in size from 15-50 feet. Longer ones are appreciably more expensive. I went with a 30-footer, which is plenty long enough for the present purpose. But requires the car to be in the garage for charging. If I had a 50 foot cable, I could reach a second EV that (will be soon) parked outside. As it is, I will likely have to relocate the charger to the garage-door-facing wall of the garage.

gidgettw said:
However, that yearly vacation drive is the deal breaker. I could probably get to the mountains or the beach on a charge. But, personally haven't seen any charging spots at any of the hotels I stay at or condos. Don't want to spend my vacation trying to charge the car and need a full charge to get home.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I would NOT recommend EV to anyone who can only justify owning one (1) car. To be a 1-car household, that vehicle will need to be a jack of all trades at just the right price, and EV is unlikely to be "it".

gidgettw said:
I have a small solar experiment/project as a hobby at home so I do understand batteries and how much power anything requiring heat consumes. Who wants to wear a coat in the car on cold days just to have battery for range. Is the a/c in an electric like the stop/start a/c on my gas car - compressor cuts off till it starts getting warm then the car restarts? No problem there. I eliminated that feature. Can you on an EV? Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

No-one wears a coat just to have battery for range. That's an urban legend.

HVAC, suspension, interior features are mostly the same in EVs compared to traditional internal combustion cars. A few automakers tried to go weird with interior choices for EVs (BMW, Tesla), but that's mostly a design fad. Only drivetrain is different and overall more compact, so that opens up possibilities for slightly more creative interior layout options, but that need not result in weird outcomes. BMW went to traditional high-quality interiors, and the cars look way more user friendly now. So do Lucid and Rivian, compared to a Tesla.

HVAC (heat, AC, blower) work identically to ICE cars. Heat can come from the coolant that circulates through the batteries (they heat up when charging/discharging), or an electric heater. Or either/or. HVAC system, especially the AC, is significantly more robust and responsive, since it needs to heat/cool the batteries, not just the passenger compartment.

HTH,
a
 
afadeev said:
Honestly, I would NOT recommend EV to anyone who can only justify owning one (1) car. To be a 1-car household, that vehicle will need to be a jack of all trades at just the right price, and EV is unlikely to be "it".

No-one wears a coat just to have battery for range. That's an urban legend.

HVAC (heat, AC, blower) work identically to ICE cars. Heat can come from the coolant that circulates through the batteries (they heat up when charging/discharging), or an electric heater. Or either/or. HVAC system, especially the AC, is significantly more robust and responsive, since it needs to heat/cool the batteries, not just the passenger compartment.
Click to expand...
From the Associated Press . . .

https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicles-cold-weather-battery-ev-6d86b7aa19e233d5dcc4d2c9abb193ed
 
Donnager said:
Do you think mandates make EV's fiscally viable?
Click to expand...
Nope!
CalebJ said:
In June you told us your 'speed control fried'. Now you're saying you bought another electric vehicle and it also spontaneously burned to the ground? That's some eyebrow raising bad luck!
Click to expand...
"Having had my 2nd ev burn to the ground, ill stick with gas from now on. " Meaning my first one did not and it was decent enough for me to buy another one. Is that better? Here, my 2nd ev fried the speed controller, i'll never buy another one, ever! But to be honest, they were both garbage.
 
gidgettw said:
Lots of interesting views on EV here. I have thought about getting one as my family daily routine is very low miles (8 year old car with 52k miles and 18 year old pickup with 105k). Charging being a major concern for a lot of people got me to looking. There are only 2 charging stations within 50 miles of me listed on a google search. One is on the local college campus that I would probably get a parking ticket if I tried to use. The other appears to be a the Nissan dealer. Not where I want to spend my time charging.
I would have to upgrade the electrical service at my home to add a decent charger. My home only has 200 amp service and it is all electric including heat. I could probably get by with a 110 charger every day as miles driven are low. However, that yearly vacation drive is the deal breaker. I could probably get to the mountains or the beach on a charge. But, personally haven't seen any charging spots at any of the hotels I stay at or condos. Don't want to spend my vacation trying to charge the car and need a full charge to get home.
I have a small solar experiment/project as a hobby at home so I do understand batteries and how much power anything requiring heat consumes. Who wants to wear a coat in the car on cold days just to have battery for range. Is the a/c in an electric like the stop/start a/c on my gas car - compressor cuts off till it starts getting warm then the car restarts? No problem there. I eliminated that feature. Can you on an EV? Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
Adding a couple of things that others might have missed.

We have a nearly all-electric house (gas furnace) on a 200-amp service. The service isn't really the issue; it's whether you have (a) outlets in the garage or (b) breaker slots in your panel. If you have a 110V outlet in your garage (and you should, just for the usefulness of outlets in your garage!), you can charge your car there. That's what we do and have never had an issue. A 100V outlet will return about 4-5 miles of driving per hour of being plugged in, so it's easy to get 50+ miles worth of charge overnight.

If you're worried about overloading the service, set the charging timer so that it charges between 8pm and 6am when you're less likely to be cooking or doing laundry. If your panel is in the garage and you have two blank breakers, you can get a charging station installed relatively cheaply since there's not much labor. Again, if you think you might overload the panel, set it to charge at night. You'll also get more miles from the same time of charge.

You might check for charging sites at hotels (say at this link: https://www.plugshare.com/map/hotels). If there are hotels that you find acceptable in your preferred vacation spots with charging stations, you might just change your stay habits.

As far as wearing a coat in the car, I find that I usually wear a coat in the car if it's cold outside, mainly so that I don't have to put it on and get cold when I get out of the car. In our Leaf, range can be pretty heavily affected by using heat. That said, I'm always comfortable with the heat on a low setting plus heated seats and steering wheel. Heating the occupants directly is more efficient than heating the air around them.
 

Similar threads

Ez2cDave
  • Locked
AAA Study : EVs Lose Significant Range When Hauling Heavy Cargo
2 3
Replies
62
Views
2K
Peartree
Peartree
Rex R
EV question
Replies
5
Views
829
Ez2cDave
Ez2cDave
Funkworks
  • Locked
Government mandates, forcing and coercion.
2 3
Replies
86
Views
3K
cwbullet
cwbullet
Ez2cDave
  • Locked
"Why do EV's need to accelerate like "supercars", with only a 300 mile range, when 50% of that power would double their range ?
3 4 5
Replies
122
Views
4K
tim cubbedge
tim cubbedge
Hobie1dog
Happy Birthday rcktnut
Replies
3
Views
59
Adam3836
Adam3836

Latest posts

Back
Top