WARBIRD BUFFS

[NJRick]

Talon....why does the FAA restrict certain planes from being restored to flight? I know the F-104 had a checkered history, but it did soldier on in NATO for many years. are some types considered too dangerous?

Yes it does ruin the look of the aircraft, the museum where Hornet Driver went to, their 109 & Heinkel have Rolls Royce Merlins. They have a 104, that was being restored to fly before the museum purchased it. The rumor was that the previous owner found out that the FAA would not give him an LOA (letter of Authorization) to fly the 104. From what I have heard, the FAA will only allow ex fighter jocks to fly the 104.

 

[NJRick]

Paul....I have heard of nose art....but your 105 takes it to another level! neat camo scheme for her too. The F-105 is just a cool looking plane. I really would like to make some plastic airplanes again...looking at your 105 makes me want to pull out my old trusty co[y of Thud Ridge...but I am making a Zooch Luna at the current and I don't want to lose momentum on her.

How`s this for a "nasty" F-105 :blush:

***** censor alert *******

......makes refueling a lot easier LOL


Paul T

 

[NJRick]

Richard....I knew they flew as Thunderbirds but I didn't know it was only for 6 shows...did they go to the F-4? or back to the F-100? too big for the aerobatics?

I love the 105's as well! I have two publicity pics of them in formation sporting the Thunderbirds paint job. They only did 6 shows with them.

 

[NJRick]

Daddy....some future builds coming from you??? would be sweet!

I can imagine if the canopy just slid all the way off you could cant a rocket motor through the cockpit, and the P-40 did carry bombs for the bottom cant. Then there is always the best war bird paint job off all time on the P-40. The build would be a tad difficult but hey, it is a P-40. A nice big chrome acorn nut from the hardware store would make a great spinner. The P-51 has a lovely intake on the bottom for a canted motor and the P51A/B has a workable canopy for a cant. The bubble canopy on the D model would be harder to execute because the clear plastic would have to be molded just right to look good. But once you figure it out you could have a P-47 N, TA 152 H, or a really awesome four rocket motor Me 262 in the air.

 

[paul.nortness]

A first look here on the 1/32nd scale B-17:

https://www.themodellingnews.com/2013/03/now-this-is-large-scale-modelling-folks.html

Greg

Just to put that into perspective....one of those shots showed just the back half of the fuselage along a tape measure....22 inches. For just the back half!

 

[paul.nortness]

Talon....why does the FAA restrict certain planes from being restored to flight? I know the F-104 had a checkered history, but it did soldier on in NATO for many years. are some types considered too dangerous?

The post read "The FAA would not give him an LOA (letter of Authorization) to FLY the 104. From what I have heard, the FAA will only allow ex fighter jocks to FLY the 104."

You are free to restore whatever the heck you want....but without the thumbs up from the FAA, it ain't going back in the air.

 

[TALON]

The post read "The FAA would not give him an LOA (letter of Authorization) to FLY the 104. From what I have heard, the FAA will only allow ex fighter jocks to FLY the 104."

You are free to restore whatever the heck you want....but without the thumbs up from the FAA, it ain't going back in the air.

Or more specifically, WHO will be bringing it back into the air. The cost of a Warbird is astronomical!! L birds, piston trainers are not too bad with $7 gallon avgas. But when you start to get into actual fighters, well bare with me. 1st I have been out of the Warbird community for over 3 years.
Take the P-51 Mustang, at full power, 500 gallons per hour! Granted, with the exception of take off, you do not need full power, especially today's planes, no armor, guns, ammo, small radios, and the gas tank taken out from behind the pilot. Then you have insurance, and a hanger (your not going to keep a 2 million dollar A/C out in the elements.
Then there is maintenance, all A/C have an annual inspection, but the FAA requires in addition to the annual, an inspection after every 50 hours of flight. When you consider all of the above, you can see at least $4000 an hour cost to fly the Mustang. That isn't considering the cost to get the experience (flight hours) to get an LOA to fly it. I can't recall, but you need so many hours in a complex A/C, high performance A/C, a tail wheel endorsement and I think so many hours in the T-6. Again I have been away from warbirds for 3 years, so some regs might have changed. But you have 2 big Obstacle to fly warbirds, money and the FAA.

 

[BEAR]

Reading through these comments, I would like to add that when I was a member of the Confederate Air Force back in the late 70's and early 80's, I was a member of the West Texas Wing in the West Houston Branch on the west side of Houston. I worked on the P-51s. We had to do a top end job on the Merlin's after every forty hours of engine time. You open up the top and start setting valves for timing and clearance. Timing marks were on the underside behind the propeller. One for exhaust valves, and one for the intake. You moved the propeller until the marks all lined up and started using your feeler gauges. It was pretty neat, but time consuming.

As for the Bf-109e acquired from the Spanish Air Force, the Confederate Air Force acquired a couple of them and used them in the movie the Battle of Britain. The running joke was what a bastard of a plane it was. You had a German airframe, that had a British engine mounted in it with plumbing upside down, that was turning in the wrong direction for the airframe design, with Spanish instruments in the cockpit, flown by Confederate pilots from south Texas who did not read or speak Spanish. The best of everything.

 

[NJRick]

holy smokes..I knew it had to be expensive, but $4000 an hour? Holy crap!
what warbirds were you around? did you own one?
I love the old planes and I guess I appreciate the effort and devotion it takes to maintain and fly these planes even more.

Or more specifically, WHO will be bringing it back into the air. The cost of a Warbird is astronomical!! L birds, piston trainers are not too bad with $7 gallon avgas. But when you start to get into actual fighters, well bare with me. 1st I have been out of the Warbird community for over 3 years.
Take the P-51 Mustang, at full power, 500 gallons per hour! Granted, with the exception of take off, you do not need full power, especially today's planes, no armor, guns, ammo, small radios, and the gas tank taken out from behind the pilot. Then you have insurance, and a hanger (your not going to keep a 2 million dollar A/C out in the elements.
Then there is maintenance, all A/C have an annual inspection, but the FAA requires in addition to the annual, an inspection after every 50 hours of flight. When you consider all of the above, you can see at least $4000 an hour cost to fly the Mustang. That isn't considering the cost to get the experience (flight hours) to get an LOA to fly it. I can't recall, but you need so many hours in a complex A/C, high performance A/C, a tail wheel endorsement and I think so many hours in the T-6. Again I have been away from warbirds for 3 years, so some regs might have changed. But you have 2 big Obstacle to fly warbirds, money and the FAA.

 

[NJRick]

Bear...that is funny!
My son and I just watched the Battle of Britain again last week...I have it on DVD. great flick!

Reading through these comments, I would like to add that when I was a member of the Confederate Air Force back in the late 70's and early 80's, I was a member of the West Texas Wing in the West Houston Branch on the west side of Houston. I worked on the P-51s. We had to do a top end job on the Merlin's after every forty hours of engine time. You open up the top and start setting valves for timing and clearance. Timing marks were on the underside behind the propeller. One for exhaust valves, and one for the intake. You moved the propeller until the marks all lined up and started using your feeler gauges. It was pretty neat, but time consuming.

As for the Bf-109e acquired from the Spanish Air Force, the Confederate Air Force acquired a couple of them and used them in the movie the Battle of Britain. The running joke was what a bastard of a plane it was. You had a German airframe, that had a British engine mounted in it with plumbing upside down, that was turning in the wrong direction for the airframe design, with Spanish instruments in the cockpit, flown by Confederate pilots from south Texas who did not read or speak Spanish. The best of everything.

 

[paul.nortness]

Or more specifically, WHO will be bringing it back into the air. The cost of a Warbird is astronomical!! L birds, piston trainers are not too bad with $7 gallon avgas. But when you start to get into actual fighters, well bare with me. 1st I have been out of the Warbird community for over 3 years.
Take the P-51 Mustang, at full power, 500 gallons per hour! Granted, with the exception of take off, you do not need full power, especially today's planes, no armor, guns, ammo, small radios, and the gas tank taken out from behind the pilot. Then you have insurance, and a hanger (your not going to keep a 2 million dollar A/C out in the elements.
Then there is maintenance, all A/C have an annual inspection, but the FAA requires in addition to the annual, an inspection after every 50 hours of flight. When you consider all of the above, you can see at least $4000 an hour cost to fly the Mustang. That isn't considering the cost to get the experience (flight hours) to get an LOA to fly it. I can't recall, but you need so many hours in a complex A/C, high performance A/C, a tail wheel endorsement and I think so many hours in the T-6. Again I have been away from warbirds for 3 years, so some regs might have changed. But you have 2 big Obstacle to fly warbirds, money and the FAA.

My point is he asked why the FAA would prevent someone from restoring certain aircraft. It isn't a matter of restoring the aircraft that is in question....it is the FAA preventing someone from flying an aircraft they are not qualified to fly.

 

[NJRick]

Paul...your answer and Talon's make perfect sense....the FAA is not going to allow someone to fly if they are not qualified (and funded it sounds like...)

My point is he asked why the FAA would prevent someone from restoring certain aircraft. It isn't a matter of restoring the aircraft that is in question....it is the FAA preventing someone from flying an aircraft they are not qualified to fly.

 

[BEAR]

Thinking back to a past experience when I was a dangerous goods/ import-export / war goods shipper, I recall that a guy called me one day to see if I could get him some help with importing some Mig 29's into the country so he could get them restored and flyable. If it is considered a war good, you have to go through the Department of State first before anything else or you cannot get whatever you have into the country. Say you have a Me-262 that you want to bring home; you cannot do it until it has been de-militarized. Unless it is already in the country, do not even worry about trying to restore it, because getting it here first can be a very big expensive, time consuming obstacle. You also have to check to see if the country is on the Treasury list. If it is, you can not do business with them. That is also true if it is considered a terrorist nation or an enemy of the United States. So many rules and regs it will make your head spin.

 

[TALON]

holy smokes..I knew it had to be expensive, but $4000 an hour? Holy crap!
what warbirds were you around? did you own one?
I love the old planes and I guess I appreciate the effort and devotion it takes to maintain and fly these planes even more.

I volunteered at a flight museum for 17 years. I took ground school and a few lessons in the early 80s. But money and women got in the way. In 1994 I started volunteering. Had a blast, got to fly (after safely in the air) PT-19, PT-22, Stearman, BT-13, T-6 & B-17! Got to ride in P-51, one time in formation w/ F-16s, another time acro in the Mustang and another time the PIC ran a tank dry on downwind, good adrenaline rush. Also got flights in TBM, TRACKER and carabou. I miss it a lot.

 

[BEAR]

I just turned green. I think they call it envy. I did get a backseat in a Mustang once. Better than sex!

 

[NJRick]

that must have been awesome! sorry for the obvious question...any favorites?

I volunteered at a flight museum for 17 years. I took ground school and a few lessons in the early 80s. But money and women got in the way. In 1994 I started volunteering. Had a blast, got to fly (after safely in the air) PT-19, PT-22, Stearman, BT-13, T-6 & B-17! Got to ride in P-51, one time in formation w/ F-16s, another time acro in the Mustang and another time the PIC ran a tank dry on downwind, good adrenaline rush. Also got flights in TBM, TRACKER and carabou. I miss it a lot.

 

[NJRick]

I never realized that so much was involved in flying these planes....heck....it sounds like a struggle just to get them here! then you have go find spare parts or fabricate parts....

Thinking back to a past experience when I was a dangerous goods/ import-export / war goods shipper, I recall that a guy called me one day to see if I could get him some help with importing some Mig 29's into the country so he could get them restored and flyable. If it is considered a war good, you have to go through the Department of State first before anything else or you cannot get whatever you have into the country. Say you have a Me-262 that you want to bring home; you cannot do it until it has been de-militarized. Unless it is already in the country, do not even worry about trying to restore it, because getting it here first can be a very big expensive, time consuming obstacle. You also have to check to see if the country is on the Treasury list. If it is, you can not do business with them. That is also true if it is considered a terrorist nation or an enemy of the United States. So many rules and regs it will make your head spin.

 

[NJRick]

you got to fly in the back seat of a Mustang! That plane is just beautiful.

I just turned green. I think they call it envy. I did get a backseat in a Mustang once. Better than sex!

 

[TALON]

Thinking back to a past experience when I was a dangerous goods/ import-export / war goods shipper, I recall that a guy called me one day to see if I could get him some help with importing some Mig 29's into the country so he could get them restored and flyable. If it is considered a war good, you have to go through the Department of State first before anything else or you cannot get whatever you have into the country. Say you have a Me-262 that you want to bring home; you cannot do it until it has been de-militarized. Unless it is already in the country, do not even worry about trying to restore it, because getting it here first can be a very big expensive, time consuming obstacle. You also have to check to see if the country is on the Treasury list. If it is, you can not do business with them. That is also true if it is considered a terrorist nation or an enemy of the United States. So many rules and regs it will make your head spin.

I remember back in the 90s when the Polish MiG 15s were being imported that a few made it through with the cannons being operational, then the ATF impounded some as they came into the states. I also known of one P-51 owner w/ 2 operational 50 cals. It was legal to fly with the bolts out of the guns. He would fly down to Mexico, install the bolts in the guns and go strafe cactus in the Mexican desert! Add the cost of 2 ma deuces and 600 rounds @ $3 a round.

 

[TALON]

Two favorites, the T-6, because I got to fly it, and the Mustang! Yes it is better than sex. I had a fair skinned Irish friend (us Italians don't have this problem) get a ride in the back of the mustang. It was on the way back from an air show. They did some acro, and my friend had his usual sun block in his back pocket. Well when the landed, there was this white slimy stuff all over the chute pack! Well he still hears about it 12 years later. You have on a chute when flying in the Mustang, but if the PIC becomes incapacitated you can't get out! Because you are squeezed in behind the pilot where the radio and gas tank was, and you can't reach anything, even the canopy release is out of reach.

 

[BEAR]

When the comments were about the guns, I had a friend back in Houston, (35 years ago) who purchased 6 DeHavilland Vampires from Australia. They each came with 4 X 20mm cannons. He had the guns removed, per ATF instructions. (The rules and regs were different back then) At a party at his home one night, he took me back in his office and opened the door to his vault. There they were, 24 20mm cannons from the Vampires. He sold the planes, kept the guns, and I know nothing now, Colonel Hogan.

 

[Zeus-cat]

I never realized that so much was involved in flying these planes....heck....it sounds like a struggle just to get them here! then you have go find spare parts or fabricate parts....

The B-17 I am helping to restore is in year 6 of its restoration. We probably have 8-10 years to go. It is mostly volunteers, but I expect the restoration to cost at least several million. Two paid staff members, raw materials, tools, the building, drawings (we have a digitized set from Boeing), donuts, soda, hats, shirts and jackets for the volunteers, etc. And there is a lot of stuff that you have to buy because your volunteers simply can't make it - like four or five engines and propellers, a Norden bombsight, fake machine guns, etc.

 

[TALON]

Reading through these comments, I would like to add that when I was a member of the Confederate Air Force back in the late 70's and early 80's, I was a member of the West Texas Wing in the West Houston Branch on the west side of Houston. I worked on the P-51s. We had to do a top end job on the Merlin's after every forty hours of engine time. You open up the top and start setting valves for timing and clearance. Timing marks were on the underside behind the propeller. One for exhaust valves, and one for the intake. You moved the propeller until the marks all lined up and started using your feeler gauges. It was pretty neat, but time consuming.

As for the Bf-109e acquired from the Spanish Air Force, the Confederate Air Force acquired a couple of them and used them in the movie the Battle of Britain. The running joke was what a bastard of a plane it was. You had a German airframe, that had a British engine mounted in it with plumbing upside down, that was turning in the wrong direction for the airframe design, with Spanish instruments in the cockpit, flown by Confederate pilots from south Texas who did not read or speak Spanish. The best of everything.

Bear, did you ever go to Breckenridge? The best Warbird air shows!

 

[BEAR]

As I recall, I did go to Breckenridge, TX fly-in a couple of times, but this was back in the early 80s. One year we flew in, in an Eurocoupe, and another year it was a BD-1/ Grumman Yankee. I always thought the fall fly-in of the CAF was pretty good also. That was where I first saw a P-82/F-82 Twin Mustang and a DH-98 Mosquito fly. There was also a JU-87 and a JU-88. I am still in love with the Mossie even today. I dream of building one or having it built for me, an all glass (instead of wood) Mosquito, running P&W Canada PT-6 turbines. I am afraid I will run out of time before I can get the money or even learn how to fly a heavy twin with retracts, but it is still a pretty neat dream.

 

[TALON]

As I recall, I did go to Breckenridge, TX fly-in a couple of times, but this was back in the early 80s. One year we flew in, in an Eurocoupe, and another year it was a BD-1/ Grumman Yankee. I always thought the fall fly-in of the CAF was pretty good also. That was where I first saw a P-82/F-82 Twin Mustang and a DH-98 Mosquito fly. There was also a JU-87 and a JU-88. I am still in love with the Mossie even today. I dream of building one or having it built for me, an all glass (instead of wood) Mosquito, running P&W Canada PT-6 turbines. I am afraid I will run out of time before I can get the money or even learn how to fly a heavy twin with retracts, but it is still a pretty neat dream.

I have already ran out of time:eyepop: I have problems at my age (58) remembering my left and right I am even pushing the wrong buttons on the remote now hate to be in an A/C and start pushing the wrong buttons:y:
A Mosquito w/PT-6s cool My dream was a XP-51G (5 blade prop) hang a RR Griffon on it and go to Reno :shock:

 

[BEAR]

That would be cool. Seems as I recall that version had a longer empenage, longer and taller dorsal, and an extended vertical stabilizer. Very similar to an "H" model. There is a guy, or used to be, here in Fort Collins who worked for an aircraft restoration facility that restored some Bf-109e's, a Tigercat, and a whole slew of Mustangs. This guy was the shop foreman and he built a Mustang from scratch and flew it at Reno a number of years back. He could probably build your plane for you. He might already have the drawing in the file. I do not know if they have a Griffin, but they had a bunch of Merlins, with heads stacked like cordwood on pallets. The Merlins, last I heard, were going for more than a mil apiece.

 

[TALON]

That would be cool. Seems as I recall that version had a longer empenage, longer and taller dorsal, and an extended vertical stabilizer. Very similar to an "H" model. There is a guy, or used to be, here in Fort Collins who worked for an aircraft restoration facility that restored some Bf-109e's, a Tigercat, and a whole slew of Mustangs. This guy was the shop foreman and he built a Mustang from scratch and flew it at Reno a number of years back. He could probably build your plane for you. He might already have the drawing in the file. I do not know if they
have a Griffin, but they had a bunch of Merlins, with heads stacked like cordwood on pallets. The Merlins, last I heard, were going for more than a mil apiece.

Yeh, if I remember correctly it was also a light weight version of the P-51. I have a soft cover picture book about the 1982 Reno Races, a guy rebuilt a Merlin and went to Reno to sell it. Had it in the back of a van. Asking $40,000 for that weekend. Hell, my fantasy is getting a time machine, go back to 1946, bet sports (to raise capital) and buy a bunch of surplus warbirds, crate them good, bury them, come back to the present, dig them up, sell most of them to afford to fly the ones I keep.

 

[Fred22]

Ya know guys this is a great thread I have read from beginning to end. I share your interest in these type aircraft but feel you forgot some. The spitfire and hurricane are amazing old warbirds and frankly the lancaster I saw flying over Cold Lake says World War 2. Like nothing else.

 

[dlazarus6660]

How`s this for a "nasty" F-105 :blush:

***** censor alert *******

......makes refueling a lot easier LOL


Paul T

Paul,

What's the scale of your thud?

Daniel

 

[TALON]

Ya know guys this is a great thread I have read from beginning to end. I share your interest in these type aircraft but feel you forgot some. The spitfire and hurricane are amazing old warbirds and frankly the lancaster I saw flying over Cold Lake says World War 2. Like nothing else.

Opps Sorry Fred, great planes design & historical wise! The Spits flew top cover to tangle with the 109s and the Hurricanes tore up the bombers. The Lanc, well all you have to say is the Damn Busters.