NTP2
Well-Known Member
This thread has really gotten out of hand, I move that it be put on pause (like the Ukraine thread)
I edited the post above to make it clear that they aren't your words. I thought that would be clear from context, but sure. For the record, I wasn't trying to imply anything about your service record or you personally.Wow...typical small minded when you jump straight to "you're a racist!" So let me break it down for you...not every observation has to do with race. It's just an observation and in the context that there are Arabs in Israel just like there are blacks in Alabama. A lot/some/many of those of those Arabs observed in Israel work in the service industry as do many/some/a lot of blacks in Alabama work in the service industry. That fact that you, by your arrogance and hyperbole, confine them "only" to the service industry is telling. Check yourself.
And no, I've never trained with the Alabama National Guard and I didn't "edit" anything...you did with your words.
I edited the post above to make it clear that they aren't your words. I thought that would be clear from context, but sure. For the record, I wasn't trying to imply anything about your service record or you personally.
What I'm saying is that it is rarely coincidental when one ethnic group occupies almost all service jobs and no other jobs. I also believe that it's rarely the case that this is the result of explicit racism ("I want to keep ***** down!"). You may not have even noticed. Certainly nobody brought it up.
It just struck me when you mentioned it before how similar it was to a shipyard in the bayous of Louisiana that I went to for work 20 years ago. After about the fourth yard visit, I realized that there were four general tiers of workers. The folks pushing brooms were all Black. The moderately skilled workers (eg welders and pipefitters) were a mix of Black and white. High skilled workers (eg electricians and engine techs) and engineering/management were all white. At a private club where the yard took us to dinner, the maitre d' was white and all of the waitstaff and bussers were Black. After I noticed it, it showed up everywhere. Again, I don't think that anybody was explicitly racist in hiring decisions, but more likely they wanted someone who "looked the part."
For the record, I was back at that yard recently, and it was far more mixed at all levels of workers.
Is that better?Let's [all] take a quick [collective] look in the mirror...
Now consider how it sounds when [one edits it] slightly:When I was training the IAF and being trained by the IAF a bit of time ago, one of the things I noticed was a lot, if not all of the service workers in Israel were Arab.
When [some hypothetical person] was training the Alabama Air National Guard a bit of time ago, one of the things [s/he] noticed was that a lot, if not all of the service workers in Alabama were Black.
Agreed.This thread has really gotten out of hand, I move that it be put on pause (like the Ukraine thread)
Nobody here is rationalizing Hamas' behavior. We are asking Israel not to become Hamas.Agreed.
When you have a group that can rationalize Hamas' activity and condemn Israel, it does appear that we have a media conundrum, or perhaps a media coup.
Oh, I'm old enough. The question is do you remember the effects...I'm going to duck out of this, but before I do, think about this.....
Around 2001, terrorists were allowed by the FAA to go through some level of pilot school, they then went on to crash two planes into two large buildings in NY. They also crashed a third one into the Pentagon (you might remember this, if you're old enough). Tongue in cheek......
How well did that work to remove extremists from Iraq and Afghanistan? Last I checked, ISIS and Iran-backed militias were still active in Iraq and the Taliban controls Afghanistan. ISIS has also expanded across North Africa. Israel is going to have the same amount of luck destroying Hamas person by person. As the princess said, the more you tighten your grip, the more [worlds] will slip through your fingers. Winning against insurgents always takes a political settlement of some kind. You can't kill them all because your military campaign will continue to radicalize other people.Our response was to play desert whack-a-mole for about a decade or so to remove every single problem child, much in the same fashion as Israel is doing as a result of attacks on their country (or area of influence). They are just more efficient, it's a smaller area, they are trying to handle the problem quickly, and make their people safe as quickly as possible.
The difference is that the US actively tried to avoid civilian casualties and paid restitution to people caught in the cross fire. We punished people responsible for war crimes (eg Abu Ghraib). Israel has done little of that, and shows no interest in reining in war crimes by its forces. That tends to knock a country off of its pedestal.I can't blame them, and again, I don't understand when Israel became the aggressor, except by media. Was the US the aggressor when they retaliated for 9/11?
This. A hundred time this.Nobody here is rationalizing Hamas' behavior. We are asking Israel not to become Hamas...
And a hundred times this, too.The difference is that the US actively tried to avoid civilian casualties and paid restitution to people caught in the cross fire. We punished people responsible for war crimes (eg Abu Ghraib). Israel has done little of that, and shows no interest in reining in war crimes by its forces. That tends to knock a country off of its pedestal.
Hamas is worse, but that doesn't mean that Israel is good.
There are no Jewish settlements in Gaza. Israel was not in Gaza when the war started.2004 if you want a date.
How many Americans wear sweatpants or hoodies with AR-15s? It’s not like gun culture is unique to that area.He had on black sweatpants with an AK47 on the leg.
( I have made statements based on nationalist rather than religious observations. I have some Jewish friends, some non Jewish friends. None of them agree that this nonsense should continue.)There are no Jewish settlements in Gaza. Israel was not in Gaza when the war started.
As an unrelated aside, I was in Israel and the West Bank in September, left 8 days before the shooting started. Stayed in Bethlehem (area A). At the Shepherd’s Fields there was a Palestinian teenager with a lamb you could pay to take a picture with. He had on black sweatpants with an AK47 on the leg.
Evidence? Or just the assumption that everything Hamas says is a lie (which may be true)?If anyone believes the 30,000 death figure from Hamas, there is no reasoning with them. That number completely made up, just like when Hamas sent a rocket into the hospital parking lot.
Just like when Israel forced the entire population of Gaza into a corner of Gaza and dropped bombs on them.If anyone believes the 30,000 death figure from Hamas, there is no reasoning with them. That number completely made up, just like when Hamas sent a rocket into the hospital parking lot.
Telling a population that an area is safe to move to and then dropping bombs into that area negates that humanitarian Israeli argument. A bit like saying there are NO restrictions on food going in but not removing the Israeli protestors blocking the trucks.Israel can stop the destruction and killing anytime they want. So can Hamas. If they really cared about Gaza civilians (they don't). It can be argued that Israel cares more about Gaza women and children than Hamas does.
Not a good analogy. The IRA was an internal terrorist group in a state of insurrection. Its political wing, Sinn Fein, supported their insurrection by legitimate political means. They were opposed by other terrorist groups who wished to support the union between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The UK was unlikely to bulldoze its own territory. It deployed armed forces in support of the police, but that just provided more targets for the IRA. Unlike Gaza there wasn’t an external state actor supporting the IRA for most of ‘the troubles’.The best analogy I can think of is this.
In the UK the "war" between the IRA and the UK government was ended by negotiation. Not by bulldozing Northern Ireland. But the borders of Northern Ireland don't keep moving. So it's easier to know where you can plant your crops in NI.
A lasting peace is the best defence for both sides.
It was a war against an organisation that had been called a terrorist organisation that ended in peace. Best one I could find.Not a good analogy. The IRA was an internal terrorist group in a state of insurrection. Its political wing, Sinn Fein, supported their insurrection by legitimate political means. They were opposed by other terrorist groups who wished to support the union between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The UK was unlikely to bulldoze its own territory. It deployed armed forces in support of the police, but that just provided more targets for the IRA. Unlike Gaza there wasn’t an external state actor supporting the IRA for most of ‘the troubles’.
You’re right in that both sides realised that the only solution was through negotiation, with US senator George Mitchell acting as an intermediary between the terrorist groups and the Britsh and Irish governments.
War is hell. Hamas can end it and the killing. Hamas can stop hiding with the civilians and sacrificing them (but they don't care about them). Hamas can agree to the cease fire option on the table and provide a list of remain live hostages. Innocent Gazan's blood is on the hands of Hamas. The death of innocent Gazan's to Hamas is feature, not a bug.Telling a population that an area is safe to move to and then dropping bombs into that area negates that humanitarian Israeli argument. A bit like saying there are NO restrictions on food going in but not removing the Israeli protestors blocking the trucks.
My first thought on this was a little snarky:War is hell. Hamas can end it and the killing. Hamas can stop hiding with the civilians and sacrificing them (but they don't care about them). Hamas can agree to the cease fire option on the table and provide a list of remain live hostages. Innocent Gazan's blood is on the hands of Hamas. The death of innocent Gazan's to Hamas is feature, not a bug.
At least in 2008, there was a clear escalation of force guideline for using small flares, warning shots, etc when I was in Iraq. We discussed it regularly before leaving the wire on convoys.* Before you start, yes I know that this is because of suicide bombers. It's still a war crime to shoot someone carrying a white flag. Anyone who knows is welcome to compare and contrast whether the US rules of engagement gave warning shots to suspected suicide bombers in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Every report of casualties states the data is from the Gaza Health Ministry, that is run by Hamas. There are no independent sources for casualites.Evidence? Or just the assumption that everything Hamas says is a lie (which may be true)?
And is Hamas the sole source of that number?
The ANC was also called a terrorist organization, both by the US and South Africa.It was a war against an organisation that had been called a terrorist organisation that ended in peace. Best one I could find.
Thanks. I had seen references to escalating force but didn’t know what the steps were. Did you have specific procedures for dealing with people ostensibly surrendering who may have been packing a suicide vest? It may not have been the right time in the war for that.At least in 2008, there was a clear escalation of force guideline for using small flares, warning shots, etc when I was in Iraq. We discussed it regularly before leaving the wire on convoys.
In your {ridiculous} metaphor, who is Ukraine, Hamas or Israel?My first thought on this was a little snarky:
"War is hell. Ukraine can end the killing at any time by agreeing to Putin's terms. Putin cares more about Ukraine's women and children than Zelenskyy does."
In that framing, Ukraine is Hamas. The words coming out of the Kremlin pre-war aren’t that different from those out of Jerusalem in the immediate aftermath of 10/7. I agree that framing Ukraine as equivalent to Hamas is ridiculous, but I think it also points to your argument having some holes.In your {ridiculous} metaphor, who is Ukraine, Hamas or Israel?
I wasn't defending Israel, I was just adding some balance to the recent posts by pointing out the Hamas is just as or maybe more responsible for the humanitarian misfortune of Gazan civilians.
That's fair.I guess the biggest problem for me is that moral relativism is rampant on both sides. For every action that we (rightfully) condemn Hamas for, it is easy to find instances of Israel doing the same. Militarizing civilian facilities, deliberately targeting civilians, even raping prisoners. Maybe Israel does it with somewhat less glee, but it’s definitely with the same impunity.
So if we condemn Hamas for doing those things, what does that mean about Israel?
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