Project Overkill Build log (Estes #9716 Star Orbiter)

[R3verb]

Back in 2022 Estes had a Black Friday sale and I picked up the Estes Star Orbiter (https://estesrockets.com/products/star-orbiter) for pretty cheap and it came with an adapter and some engines. After reading Leo's terrific thread (https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-star-orbiter-9716.134806/), I decided I wanted to go totally overboard on this build and try some stuff that I'd use for my L1 cert rocket later this year.

So with the intro out of the way, here's the plan:

• Glass the tubes using Soller Composites fiberglass sleeve (https://sollercompositesllc.com/product/natural-uncolored-2-0-light-fiberglass-sleeves/)
• Upgrade the fins and rings to plywood with the Vanderburn kit (https://www.launchlabrocketry.com/shop/p/vanderburnstarorbiterupgradekit)
• Dual deploy with the Telemetrum flight computer (https://altusmetrum.org/TeleMetrum/)

So yeah, we're calling this rocket "overkill" because duh. I think the plan is to use the same e-bay design used in Leo's thread. As always with my builds, there's going to be some 3d printing involved. So that's the plan, I'm hoping to make this thing basically indestructible for an estes kit and hopefully learn a few things along the way so that I make my mistakes on this rocket and not my L1 cert rocket. My secret hope is that after flying this thing a few times on F motors it's still tough as a tank and I can just send it as my L1 cert. We'll see.

Come along for the ride!

Casey Levinger

 

[cls]

with all that extra weight, be careful about flying on E16s and F15s.

maybe start with an H268, ha ha, just kidding.

 

[R3verb]

I'm going to very carefully track all the final weights and sim it. I'm hoping flying it on the estes F motors will work but I may step up to something else.

 

[ljwilley]

My project overkill will be making a clone of the Estes der red max and putting a 29mm motor mount in it. Also going to carbon fiber the whole thing and put on an aluminum tip. (That's the overkill part!)

 

[SolarYellow]

For the marginal MPR stuff, I like the Quest D22, E26, and E35 motors. Definitely more sauce for a greater safety margin on the bigger birds. And available affordably at AC Supply.

 

[R3verb]

Tonight I’m working on the design for the ebay. I was originally going to do the same design as Leo but the 3D printing bug in me wouldn’t leave it alone so I started looking at different ebay designs. I noticed everything is plywood so I was a bit nervous about using 3D printed plastic instead.

To test this, I figured I’d make a little test print and see how much it could hold up. I’d love to tell you it survived to X number of pounds but here’s the truth, I figured it would fail at like 25lbs and then this happened:



Needless to say, I got scared since I don’t have any bigger plates. Pretty sure the 3D printed one will do just fine.

For reference, I printed it 4mm thick with 20% infill, 4 perimeters and 4 top and bottom layers in PLA. To save some weight, I’ll probably go PETG (stronger) and go to 3 top and bottom layers and 3 perimeters.

I’ll try and get a preliminary design done soon and share it here. The plan is to fly the telemetrum and a lipo battery.

 

[R3verb]

I also finished up the motor mount yesterday. Epoxy instead of carpenters glue and the same Kevlar string that Leo was using for shock cord mounting. Mines not quite as perfect but I’ll take it. When I build my L1, I’ll use some slower setting epoxy to give me some extra working time so I can get everything perfect.

 

[SolarYellow]

The cord will chafe going over that sharp edge. Should be rounded with a radius equal or nearly so to the thickness of the plywood.

 

[R3verb]

The cord will chafe going over that sharp edge. Should be rounded with a radius equal or nearly so to the thickness of the plywood.

Yup, the final model will have big roundovers on the corners, this was just a quick and dirty test print.

 

[R3verb]

Ok people. I have a questions. So I have the kevlar attached to the motor mount as seen above. I'll put a loop in there so that I can attach my shock cord/chute to it. My questions is, what kind of shock cord should I be using??? I have the stretchy stuff from Estes, do I just tie a knot and use a quick link to attach it to the kevlar coming off the motor mount? What about the other side? that side will have the nosecone and the other side of the ebay. Any pictures/explainations of where everything should go and what kind of cord/knots/connectors should be used would be great. Thanks!

Casey Levinger

 

[Back_at_it]

Ok people. I have a questions. So I have the kevlar attached to the motor mount as seen above. I'll put a loop in there so that I can attach my shock cord/chute to it. My questions is, what kind of shock cord should I be using??? I have the stretchy stuff from Estes, do I just tie a knot and use a quick link to attach it to the kevlar coming off the motor mount? What about the other side? that side will have the nosecone and the other side of the ebay. Any pictures/explainations of where everything should go and what kind of cord/knots/connectors should be used would be great. Thanks!

Casey Levinger

I would use the same Kevlar that you are using on the motor mount. You'll want the total length to be about 4 times the length of the rocket.

To prevent zippering, you can do a couple of things. The first is to spread some epoxy around the first inch of the upper end of the body tube. Use a hair drier to warn it up so that it soaks into the tube. Wait a couple minutes then wipe off the excess with a paper towel lightly damp with alcohol.

You'll also want to add something on the cord itself right where it exits the body tube. This can be anything from a piece of plastic to a couple of wraps of tape. All you're trying to do is prevent that line from cutting into the tube.

 

[sr205347d]

To prevent zippering,

. . . use a JLCR. You’re going to need one anyway, flying a Star Orbiter on an E motor.

 

[R3verb]

. . . use a JLCR. You’re going to need one anyway, flying a Star Orbiter on an E motor.

This is going to be a full dual deploy setup anyways so a JLCR shouldn't be necessary right? Or are you saying use dual deploy for the drogue chute and then pop the main at like 1000’ and use the JLCR to open the main lower than that? I’m a little confused.

 

[sr205347d]

Right, JLCR would be redundant with dual deploy. Unless you were afraid of getting zippered when the drogue deploys, then a JLCR on the drogue would let things slow down before it opens.

Besides, JLCR and dual deploy would be overkill, no?

 

[R3verb]

Ok people, I’ve been hard at work on this one. Over the last few weeks I got the tubes fiberglassed, filled and sanded and they are now perfectly smooth.

Fiberglassing was a real adventure. My first one the ends started to warp and I got freaked out so I pulled the shrink wrap off while the epoxy was still wet. This gave me a super terrible finish. Luckily I was smart and started with the top tube (the one without the fin slots) so it was as simple as doing another 18” BT-60 tube which I already had on hand and had purchased enough glass to mess up twice. The second one did better though the shrink wrap tube was kinda a PITA. For the last one (with the fin slots) I went with the fiberglass sleeve but did a regular milar wrap and this gave me the best surface finish and will be my method going forward.

Once everything was glasses, I mixed up some epoxy with body filler, filled the low spots and sanded it back. Now they are perfectly smooth and ready for primer:


The other thing I’ve been working on is the e-bay. As I said, I wanted to do a fully 3D printed e-bay for this rocket. It took a couple of iterations but I finally am happy with the result:






Lastly, I got the switch ring cut and epoxied to the e-bay tube tonight:


Once this is cured (tomorrow) I’ll use my 3D printed hole jig to get the sheet pin and removable rivet holes drilled and I’ll finally be able to joint the upper and lower halves!



Next is motor mount and fins. I think I’m going to do one layer of tip to tip glass on them just for added strength but not go too crazy.

 

[dpower]

Looking good. I really need to learn how to FB stuff, did you use flat FB or the sleeves?

That was a killer deal, a Star Orbiter + a pack of D12-5 + a pack of 24/29 adapters for $16.19, I bought 3, plus a pack of wadding to get me over the free shipping threshold. Built 2 (stock), lost one on an F15-8, second one has yet to fly.

 

[sr205347d]

For the marginal MPR stuff, I like the Quest D22, E26, and E35 motors. Definitely more sauce for a greater safety margin on the bigger birds. And available affordably at AC Supply.

Given the investment he is putting into this bird, I would recommend he not go cheap with motors. Stay away from Quest motors. See the thread on Q-Jet Follies.

I would also recommend avoiding Estes BP motors for two reasons. I recently had a Star Orbiter destroyed in an E12 CATO.

Secondly, the "speed off guide" in ThrustCurve.org is too slow with Estes motors, even with a 6' guide, on my replacement Star Orbiter which is basically stock, with the addition of a quick link, nomex, a JLCR, and a 1 oz GPS tracker.

I plan on starting with an E20, then an F20 or F23. If it survives, then maybe an F25, and then a G40.

 

[R3verb]

Looking good. I really need to learn how to FB stuff, did you use flat FB or the sleeves?

That was a killer deal, a Star Orbiter + a pack of D12-5 + a pack of 24/29 adapters for $16.19, I bought 3, plus a pack of wadding to get me over the free shipping threshold. Built 2 (stock), lost one on an F15-8, second one has yet to fly.

I used the solar sleeves. Honestly very easy.

 

[dpower]

I used the solar sleeves. Honestly very easy.

Cool. I see many here have used the Soller sleeves, I'll have to read through those posts and give it a go.

 

[R3verb]

Small update today, got the motor tube epoxied into the main tube. Hopefully tomorrow will be the start of the fins.

 

[R3verb]

Wow, this build has been dragging on for WAY too long lol. Anyways, I got the fins in place. I will try and get the epoxy filets done this week and then we are finally on to painting/testing.



Using the 3d printed fin alignment jig makes this a breeze and hopefully these are lined up perfectly.



These are the upgraded plywood fins from vanderburn. After filets I plan on doing a single layer of tip to tip glass, basically just for practice. More to come!

casey levinger

 

[R3verb]

I did the tip to tip layup:

It was super messy but I learned a LOT and I can tell it added some strength. We're to the point that I'd need a lot of sanding to make this thing perfect so I made the call to say "as long as it looks good on the pad I'm ok. With that in mind, I sanded everything to 200 grit, ignored the imperfections and put a coat of primer on:




Hoping to sand and put the first coat of metallic silver on tonight!

 

[R3verb]

Well, we have an issue.

I did some pop tests today with mixed results. I'm using the Christmas lights ejection charge method (https://user.xmission.com/~jry/rocketry/mini-bulb-mortar/mini-bulb-pyros.html). The main worked perfectly with .5 grams of black powder. nosecone popped off, drug the chute out with it, perfect test. I then tested the drogue, no dice. Removed the 1 sheer pin, still no dice. Doubled the black powder charge to 1 gram, still no dice. Looking at the 2 ends, it seems like the black powder on the drogue isn't burning all the way since there's a LOT of what looks like unburnt black powder. I'm also curious if not having a motor in the motor mount is causing an issue (basically a giant 29mm hole at the bottom of the tube). Any ideas? I don't have any e-matches so going with like the glove tip method is out of the question for this weekend short of finding somebody locally with a few I can buy.

For reference, the tube is a BT-60 (1.3") at 18" long. I've used 1" and 2" of tubing which translates roughly to .5 and 1 grams of BP.

Thanks!

 

[waltr]

No motor in the MMT allows all the BP charge gas to exit out the back. One must block off the MMT with a used motor.
1.3" by 18" tube should only need about 0.6 to 0.8gram BP.

How are you containing the BP charge (picture)? The BP must be contained so the the burning builds pressure and burns all the BP.

 

[SolarYellow]

https://user.xmission.com/~jry/rocketry/mini-bulb-mortar/mini-bulb-pyros.html

Thanks for that link. I've seen other descriptions of using the mini bulbs, but that is a very thorough description. I like 100/$3.50 @ Walmart better than ematches.

 

[smstachwick]

Given the investment he is putting into this bird, I would recommend he not go cheap with motors. Stay away from Quest motors. See the thread on Q-Jet Follies.

I would also recommend avoiding Estes BP motors for two reasons. I recently had a Star Orbiter destroyed in an E12 CATO.

Secondly, the "speed off guide" in ThrustCurve.org is too slow with Estes motors, even with a 6' guide, on my replacement Star Orbiter which is basically stock, with the addition of a quick link, nomex, a JLCR, and a 1 oz GPS tracker.

I plan on starting with an E20, then an F20 or F23. If it survives, then maybe an F25, and then a G40.

I’ve flown a stock Star Orbiter on an F52C, nominal flight and only minor compression damage to the spiral seam (which actually happens on an Estes F15). A glassed tube should hold up fine at any thrust deliverable by a non-HPR motor.

 

[R3verb]

Thanks for the info everyone! I 3d printed a motor plug, tested 1 gram again and had a great separation. I'm not using any sheer pins but given the fit, I think we are good without them for now.

So, I think we are ready to fly! I am going to clean a few things up (heat shrink tubing on the loose ends of the shock cords, clean up the BP off of the ebay sled, etc). Close this up and hopefully fly this weekend! I'll post close-up photos here before Saturday!

The plan is to fly on an Estes F15-6 as it looks like that's the nominal flight config:



Thanks for all the help on this one!

 

[BEC]

I’ve flown a stock Star Orbiter on an F52C, nominal flight and only minor compression damage to the spiral seam (which actually happens on an Estes F15). A glassed tube should hold up fine at any thrust deliverable by a non-HPR motor.

Indeed. My Star Orbiters have a payload section that is created by using a coupler and a ply disk and cutting the upper several inches of the upper tube off to make it. Here is a flight on an F52C carrying a fairly heavy payload (three Eggtimer IONs, three PerfectFlite Pnuts and a FlightSketch Mini): https://flightsketch.com/flights/3731/

The only epoxy in my model is holding the Estes motor retainer in place. No problem.

This model typically flies to ~1600 feet carrying a lighter payload (one altimeter, not seven) and a Jolly Logic Chute Release on an Estes F15-8. The -6 is too short a delay for it (Estes delays tend to run a bit short of the nominal value).

 

[RocketTree]

Third flight on my Star Orbiter with G74-9W to 2180’ at 900kmh. Onboard 808 cam, 15” chute, aerotech shock cord. Otherwise completely stock. Held together fine on a small G with no issues at all. Assembled with Gorilla wood glue. Anybody have fin flutter analysis results on this model?

 

[R3verb]

Indeed. My Star Orbiters have a payload section that is created by using a coupler and a ply disk and cutting the upper several inches of the upper tube off to make it. Here is a flight on an F52C carrying a fairly heavy payload (three Eggtimer IONs, three PerfectFlite Pnuts and a FlightSketch Mini): https://flightsketch.com/flights/3731/

The only epoxy in my model is holding the Estes motor retainer in place. No problem.

This model typically flies to ~1600 feet carrying a lighter payload (one altimeter, not seven) and a Jolly Logic Chute Release on an Estes F15-8. The -6 is too short a delay for it (Estes delays tend to run a bit short of the nominal value).

Your thread was what inspired me to build this one! Can I ask, why so many altimeters on one flight? Do you have pictures? I feel like I'm basically at capacity with a single telemetrum so I'd love to see how you crammed all of that into a similarly sized e-bay.

I'm hoping the -6 works tomorrow. If I had a -8 I'd go that route but since the sim says I'm good I think I'm gunna go for it with the -6. The other thing is my model is considerably heavier because of all the fiberglass and epoxy so I'm assuming i'd want an earlier ejection than a stock star orbiter. Closed out the top and bottom of the rocket this morning.

Putting final touches on the ebay today and then it's go time!