Loc LaserLoc 163, Mach 1 on Level 1 motors (with modifications)

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mbeels

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I finished the primer today. I used just regular old household exterior latex primer. It goes on nicely with a brush, and sands pretty decently. Actually, it dry sands better than rusto filler-primer with very little sand paper clogging. It doesn't fill a whole lot, but it works well enough for a primer step. The best part is no odor, and I can do it indoors. And it dries super fast. After sanding with 400 grit, the brush marks are nearly completely gone.

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And when an opportunity presented itself, I quick grabbed a can of color and sprayed it. This is Krylon Pumpkin Orange. I've learned to get good results with Krylon, it likes two light coats. This is number 1.

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o1d_dude

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The Formula 54 rocket I’ve working on the past few days is a Halloween rocket as well: Blck NC and fins, pumpkin orange body tube.

Both of our rockets should be easy to find post flight...
 

mbeels

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The Formula 54 rocket I’ve working on the past few days is a Halloween rocket as well: Blck NC and fins, pumpkin orange body tube.

Both of our rockets should be easy to find post flight...
I like that color, they should really stand out and contrast pretty well where ever they land. As long as it isn't a highway safety cone storage facility or pumpkin patch, in that case we're both screwed.
 

Handeman

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Thanks! Yeah, there are so many things to do with Level 1 motors, I'm less interested in "leveling up" than I am in trying new things and seeing what I can do. For me, it is fun to pursue specific goals and try to optimize and learn along the way.
I am similar, my motivation for "leveling up" was LDRS coming to the east coast, Potter NY in '09 and MDRA in '15 and the fact I could get a great kit for 1/3 off.
I agree there are a many things you can do with L1, but you might want to consider L2, just because there are even more things to try with the extra power available. The Lo to Hi power of J motors alone give you a range of 640Ns vs. 480Ns for Lo to Hi in H & I motors. That will be the first thing you really learn flying L2, is the amount of power those motors have, that and how to fly your field. I found that my L1 usually stay below 4K ft. L2 usually run 4k to 7K and can easily push the limits of the field I fly at.

Good Luck and have fun!
 

mbeels

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I am similar, my motivation for "leveling up" was LDRS coming to the east coast, Potter NY in '09 and MDRA in '15 and the fact I could get a great kit for 1/3 off.
I agree there are a many things you can do with L1, but you might want to consider L2, just because there are even more things to try with the extra power available. The Lo to Hi power of J motors alone give you a range of 640Ns vs. 480Ns for Lo to Hi in H & I motors. That will be the first thing you really learn flying L2, is the amount of power those motors have, that and how to fly your field. I found that my L1 usually stay below 4K ft. L2 usually run 4k to 7K and can easily push the limits of the field I fly at.

Good Luck and have fun!
Thanks! I am having fun. I've had more then normal time for building lately, so now I'm just looking forward to getting to some launches.

I do definitely plan on getting my Level 2 at some point (I've already bought a motor case for it), so it's just a matter of time. I have family in Wichita, KS, so I'd also like to get out to the Kloud Busters field. I'm mostly a mid-power flyer, but flying the occasional H,I, (and even J) would be fun.
 

o1d_dude

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The 4" couplers from LOC were actually 5", which was a good thing, the Proton and battery would have fit within 4", but 5" gives it more room. How long is the one in your LOC kit?

Somebody somewhere has full length couplers, where did I see that....

Rocketarium has full length phenolic. But I think Mike is right:
The coupler in my LaserLOC 1.6 is 5” long.

Most likely an extremely tight fit for my RRC2+ and printed sled. That’s why I was looking for a 6” long coupler or even a full length tube I could cut to my needs.

What did you do for your shock cord anchor? I have a 38mm Giant Leap Hard Point and am considering using it. It is slightly undersized in diameter and requires one wrap of masking tape to fit snug. It would be a bit of a task to replace the shock cord but not impossible. One of those cross that bridge when I come to it things.

If you’re going full dual deploy and no delay charges, a bulkhead would work. A 38mm plugged tapped front closure would work, too.

For 29mm motors you could bond the shock cord to the motor mount adapter. I didn’t think of that until just now. D’oh!
 

mbeels

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What did you do for your shock cord anchor? I have a 38mm Giant Leap Hard Point and am considering using it. It is slightly undersized in diameter and requires one wrap of masking tape to fit snug. It would be a bit of a task to replace the shock cord but not impossible. One of those cross that bridge when I come to it things.
I haven't decided yet, each option requires some compromise. I'd also like to have the shock cord replaceable. I'd attach to the forward closure of the motor, but I'll probably mostly fly CTI, and they specifically state that their MD retainer adapter is not for attaching recovery gear. The other option would be to epoxy an eye bolt into the CTI forward closure, but that would be an extra required step for each flight.

I had to look up the GLR 38mm hard point, and boy, that looks very robust.
 

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I haven't decided yet, each option requires some compromise. I'd also like to have the shock cord replaceable. I'd attach to the forward closure of the motor, but I'll probably mostly fly CTI, and they specifically state that their MD retainer adapter is not for attaching recovery gear. The other option would be to epoxy an eye bolt into the CTI forward closure, but that would be an extra required step for each flight.

I had to look up the GLR 38mm hard point, and boy, that looks very robust.
The one I installed in my L1 dual deploy tube fin rocket is still going strong so as a sample of one person, I give it a thumbs up.
 

mbeels

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Paint is done (Krylon). Vinyl from Stickershock23.com is coming. Shear plates (?) for the shear pins are installed.

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All that is left is to finalize the AV bay, finish my tracker (Eggfinder mini), complete the nose cone bay, motor retention, and recovery attachment.
 

mbeels

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Time for motor retention and recovery attachment. My current plan is to use a single 5/16" threaded rod to connect the motor, airframe, and recovery harness together. I'm going to glue in a bulkhead with a 5/16" blind nut, and use different length threaded rods to accommodate different length motors, up to a maximum of CTI 4 grain. It leaves about 6" for the recovery harness, that will be tight, but I think it will just fit.

In principle this should provide positive motor retention, allow me to change the recovery harness, and still give me a place to attach the recovery harness when using DMS, SU, or 29mm motors that aren't compatible with MD retainers. The trick is going to be threading and unthreading the rod when it is sitting in the middle of the booster. I have a tool that I've used for situations like this, and I think it will work here as well. It is a length of angle aluminum with a hook on the end that can grab an eye nut and twist it. I'll keep the eye nut locked to the top of the threaded rod with a jam nut, and screw it down from the top. It will take some fiddling to get the length right for the motor retainer, but I think that this will work.

(I've said "I think" too many times, I'll get snagged by something)

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tOD

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The coupler in my LaserLOC 1.6 is 5” long.

Most likely an extremely tight fit for my RRC2+ and printed sled. That’s why I was looking for a 6” long coupler or even a full length tube I could cut to my needs.

What did you do for your shock cord anchor? I have a 38mm Giant Leap Hard Point and am considering using it. It is slightly undersized in diameter and requires one wrap of masking tape to fit snug. It would be a bit of a task to replace the shock cord but not impossible. One of those cross that bridge when I come to it things.

If you’re going full dual deploy and no delay charges, a bulkhead would work. A 38mm plugged tapped front closure would work, too.

For 29mm motors you could bond the shock cord to the motor mount adapter. I didn’t think of that until just now. D’oh!
Check the dimensions, but Balsa Machining may have 34" coupler stock in the diameter you need.
 

tOD

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Check the dimensions, but Balsa Machining may have 34" coupler stock in the diameter you need.
Check out their C60-34. I measured my Park Flyer EZE and it's 1.524 ID
 

mbeels

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I ran a simulation for the most extreme flight profile that I could imagine flying (I 470 WT). According to Rocksim, I could expect -30 Gs of acceleration at motor burnout (1500 ft/sec). I used this formula to estimate the drag separation forces. Even at a drag ratio of 0.1, I get a maximum separation force of only 10 N, so (2) 2-56 shear pins should have no trouble holding the rocket together.

1591375693459.png
 

o1d_dude

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Time for motor retention and recovery attachment. My current plan is to use a single 5/16" threaded rod to connect the motor, airframe, and recovery harness together. I'm going to glue in a bulkhead with a 5/16" blind nut, and use different length threaded rods to accommodate different length motors, up to a maximum of CTI 4 grain. It leaves about 6" for the recovery harness, that will be tight, but I think it will just fit.

In principle this should provide positive motor retention, allow me to change the recovery harness, and still give me a place to attach the recovery harness when using DMS, SU, or 29mm motors that aren't compatible with MD retainers. The trick is going to be threading and unthreading the rod when it is sitting in the middle of the booster. I have a tool that I've used for situations like this, and I think it will work here as well. It is a length of angle aluminum with a hook on the end that can grab an eye nut and twist it. I'll keep the eye nut locked to the top of the threaded rod with a jam nut, and screw it down from the top. It will take some fiddling to get the length right for the motor retainer, but I think that this will work.

(I've said "I think" too many times, I'll get snagged by something)

View attachment 419373
That looks like it will work.

I bought an Aerotech 38mm front closure (plugged/threaded)which will cover the MD flights but leaves me flying a different rocket for low and mid power SU motors. I’m okay with that.

A very short (2” at most) 38-29mm motor adaptor modified to accept a shockcord wrapped around the 29mm tube can be permanently mounted in the body/motor tube is also a possibility for you to consider. That’s pretty much how the LaserLOC 2.23 is set up from the factory. Kind of a pain to install the thing in place AND you cannot replace the shock cord so there are trade offs.
 

mbeels

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A very short (2” at most) 38-29mm motor adaptor modified to accept a shockcord wrapped around the 29mm tube can be permanently mounted in the body/motor tube is also a possibility for you to consider. That’s pretty much how the LaserLOC 2.23 is set up from the factory. Kind of a pain to install the thing in place AND you cannot replace the shock cord so there are trade offs.
Yeah, that'd be a good option as well. So many possibilities, and each one has its own list of trade offs and compromises. I've glued in the bulkhead with the 5/16" nut, so at this point I'm committed to the all-thread idea. I suspect it will be slightly less convenient, but it has other advantages.
 

mbeels

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Alright, 20 oz on the nose without dog barf, shear pins, and stickershock23 decals.

P6050525.JPG
 

o1d_dude

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Alright, 20 oz on the nose without dog barf, shear pins, and stickershock23 decals.

View attachment 419501
Use a Cesaroni H225 and you pull 33g’s off the pad, 1.5 sec motor burn, just break Mach, 100 feet shy of 1 mile at apogee, but probably burn off your decals from Stickershock23. The Cesaroni H100 gets you the mile but won’t break Mach (about .9) and the liftoff is much more reasonable at 12.5g’s.

Aerotech I195 gets both the mile and the Mach. Motor burn of 2.3 seconds, 32g’s at liftoff, and again you probably burn up your vinyl.

In any event, get a streamer so you see this toothpick at 5000’

Video/pics or it didn’t happen. LOL!
 

mbeels

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So now that I have the final weight, here are some of my motor options. I used a surface finish of "matte" which usually matches my flight results very well. These results are from Rocksim, I'll check RasAero as well.

MotorMax Velocity [mach]Apogee [ft]Max Acceleration [G]
F67 W0.26110013
G115 WT0.5280017
H225 WT0.88513030
I357 T1.01587050
I345 WT1.14630040
I470 WT1.34690052

I'll probably fly the F67 or G115 first, just to make sure that the tracker works, recovery goes smoothly, and all those things. Then, I'm not sure.
 

mbeels

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Use a Cesaroni H225 and you pull 33g’s off the pad, 1.5 sec motor burn, just break Mach, 100 feet shy of 1 mile at apogee, but probably burn off your decals from Stickershock23. The Cesaroni H100 gets you the mile but won’t break Mach (about .9) and the liftoff is much more reasonable at 12.5g’s.
Your sims are a little more optimistic than mine. Do you remember what surface finish you used?
 

o1d_dude

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Your sims are a little more optimistic than mine. Do you remember what surface finish you used?
My sims were simple ones done using the Thrustcurve app on my iPad.

I had already made up a “rocket” entry for my LaserLoc 1.6 and simply overrode the LOC Precision advertised weight with the actual weight from your post.

All other criteria are the basic ones John Coker wrote into the program. I have found Thrustcurve to be a good approximation for my rockets’ actual performance (visually).
 

mbeels

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Yeah, it is impressive how well Thrustcurve does, considering what little information it considers. It's definitely a really useful website.
 

mbeels

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Ras Aero results.

There is a pretty significant increase in altitude without the "launch shoes" (as RasAero calls them). I used 0.08950 sq. inches for the cross sectional area, they're small, but that makes a big difference in the simulation.

The max velocities from Ras Aero are very similar to Rocksim, however the apogee results are lower than Rocksim. I read elsewhere on this forum that the general consensus seems to be that RockSim underestimates altitude for Mach 1+ flights, and Ras Aero is higher and more accurate. So I'll be very curious to see the actual flight results. Either way, I've got a good idea what to expect. Enough simulating, time to go fly.....

MotorMax velocity [mach]Apogee [ft]Max V (without launch shoes)Apogee (without launch shoes)
G115 WT0.4924480.513041
I357 T1.0249701.096800
I470 WT1.3562001.438590
 

o1d_dude

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Ras Aero results.

There is a pretty significant increase in altitude without the "launch shoes" (as RasAero calls them). I used 0.08950 sq. inches for the cross sectional area, they're small, but that makes a big difference in the simulation.

The max velocities from Ras Aero are very similar to Rocksim, however the apogee results are lower than Rocksim. I read elsewhere on this forum that the general consensus seems to be that RockSim underestimates altitude for Mach 1+ flights, and Ras Aero is higher and more accurate. So I'll be very curious to see the actual flight results. Either way, I've got a good idea what to expect. Enough simulating, time to go fly.....

MotorMax velocity [mach]Apogee [ft]Max V (without launch shoes)Apogee (without launch shoes)
G115 WT0.4924480.513041
I357 T1.0249701.096800
I470 WT1.3562001.438590
By “launch shoes” I assume you’re referring to launch lugs.

Landru (Additive Aerospace) makes some very slick “fly away” rail guides that I’ve been looking at for my two LaserLOCs.

Just under $40 as I recall.

BTW, I just ordered a custom 25’ long alternating Neon Pink/Black streamer for my LaserLOC 1.6 from Bama Chutes to use as a drogue and visual reference point.

I hope to be able to see it when it’s a mile up. I carry a pair of 10x23 Nikon Travelite II binocs in my rocket box so I should be able to spot the streamer once it’s deployed.

Worst comes to worst, I should be able to see it on the ground.
 

mbeels

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By “launch shoes” I assume you’re referring to launch lugs.
It's what Ras Aero calls rail guides:

1591538634429.png


I looked at the fly away rail guides, it seems that they're prone to breaking when the hit the ground. Based on the sims, the rail guides will cut down the altitude quite a bit, but only have a small impact on the max velocity, which is better for me. I'd rather have a lower altitude, so some extra drag is ok.

BTW, I just ordered a custom 25’ long alternating Neon Pink/Black streamer for my LaserLOC 1.6 from Bama Chutes to use as a drogue and visual reference point.

I hope to be able to see it when it’s a mile up. I carry a pair of 10x23 Nikon Travelite II binocs in my rocket box so I should be able to spot the streamer once it’s deployed.

Worst comes to worst, I should be able to see it on the ground.
I really like streamers for visibility, especially the colored reflective mylar streamers that glint in the sun. Those are great for spotting a rocket from far off. Are you doing single deploy at apogee with the streamer? I barely have enough room for the shock cord in my booster, between the bulkhead and the av bay. It is super tight.
 

o1d_dude

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My plan is to use the 38mm plugged threaded front closure and a welded eyebolt to anchor the shock cord. I’ll pop the 25’ streamer at apogee and the small main at about 500’. Thinking about it, the 25’ streamer may be too long and permit the rocket to drift...

Anyway I only need to do this once...as long as I’m successful the first time.

Then I’ll go back to using the motor mount adapter with a shock cord attached and fly “sane” flights (F50’s - G80’S, etc.)

I asked Ben at BAMA Chutes to do the streamer for me on a custom basis. It has alternating 5’ long 6” wide neon pink and black panels for visibility and contrast. Price was quite reasonable. Whether it works as planned remains to be seen.

BTW, LabRat Rocketry sells a 38mm Minimum Diameter motor mount for threaded front closures. Intended for glass body tubes so I have no idea how or if it would work on a LOC paper tube. Just a thought and Chris B may be amenable to doing something for you on a custom basis.
 

mbeels

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I’ll pop the 25’ streamer at apogee and the small main at about 500’. Thinking about it, the 25’ streamer may be too long and permit the rocket to drift...
That's a BIG streamer!

I asked Ben at BAMA Chutes to do the streamer for me on a custom basis. It has alternating 5’ long 6” wide neon pink and black panels for visibility and contrast. Price was quite reasonable. Whether it works as planned remains to be seen.
Or is it 5'? Is this a different streamer? I've heard that BAMA Chutes has nice stuff, that should be great for visibility. I have ZERO room for anything else besides shock cord, my deployment charges, and maybe a bit of dog barf. But I'm leaving room for a 4 grain case, so that is what makes it tight.

Just a thought and Chris B may be amenable to doing something for you on a custom basis.
Yeah, I think that they're slightly different sizes. I think that my bulkhead with threaded nut will work, the only downside is that it is in a fixed position, so I can't move it around, or use motor ejection as a fall back. But that's alright, I'm building this rocket for one specific flight.
 

mbeels

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I spent some time reading through TRF and decided if anything, my coupler was probably the weak spot, so it gets a layer of fiberglass on the inside.

P6070526.JPG
 
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