Loc LaserLoc 163, Mach 1 on Level 1 motors (with modifications)

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
I like all sorts of rockets including odd-rocs, scale rockets, unique rockets, spectacle rockets. I like jet rockets, sci-fi rockets, and I love futuristic hypersonic planes.

But sometimes I just want to put a big motor in a rocket and send it.

When I got my Level one last year, I had several goals in mind. Besides just having fun and launching rockets, I wanted to accomplish some other goals:
  • 1+ mile Altitude, achieved with Mach 1 Rocketry Alien Interceptor. (This was easier than I thought it would be.)
  • Air start at least one motor (partial sucess with Skunk'd). I'll attempt this again.
  • Mach 1+ velocity. This is turning out to be a bit harder than I thought.
It turns out that the Alien Interceptor (being fiberglass) is too heavy to hit Mach 1 on level 1 motors. So I started drawing up plans for a cardboard 38mm MD rocket, with the goal of keeping it as light as possible. I realized I was nearly duplicating the LaserLoc 163, so I decided to just buy the kit. It is like buying the parts, and getting a nosecone and crenelated fins for free. I will modify some aspects of the kit, including the fin shape.

I started by weighing the contents and running simulations. I don't want the rocket to just dabble in the transonic zone, but I want to pretty decisively and unambiguously exceed Mach 1. So I'm shooting for 1.2+. Already just weighing the parts and electronics I plan to include puts me at 20 oz, which would require a pretty thrusty "I" motor to hit Mach 1.2. I will try to find places to save weight, without sacrificing significant strength.

Simulated maximum velocities (in Mach) with some random motors and rocket weights.
1589331506282.png


Already 20 oz, with tracker, Eggtimer Proton, batteries, and AV bay parts!

P5120439.JPG

This should be a fun challenge.
 
Last edited:

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,627
Reaction score
222
Location
Stafford, VA
Good luck. The whole project sounds fun.

I never did build anything specifically for exceeding mach. In my case it came as a by product of an altitude attempt. I was trying to hit 10K ft in my L2 cert rocket and put a Pro54 6GXL L935 in it. I didn't quite get 10K in the 4" rocket, but I did get mach 1.2.

I might have to look into building a mach buster...
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
I was trying to hit 10K ft in my L2 cert rocket and put a Pro54 6GXL L935 in it. I didn't quite get 10K in the 4" rocket, but I did get mach 1.2.
That is really up there. Did you hit 10k with a different size rocket?
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,627
Reaction score
222
Location
Stafford, VA
That is really up there. Did you hit 10k with a different size rocket?
No I haven't. Our waiver is 16K, but anything over 8K on most days and you're going to end up in woods, corn, creek bottoms, or other hard to find places.

I really didn't build anything for a while that would top that. My L3 rocket can, I just need the 98mm case for the EX load. But, I have a 3" with 54mm MMT and am finishing a 4" with 75mm MMT, finishing a 38mm sustainer stage I will probably put a 4" 75mm MMT booster under and another 4" with 75mm MMT that should all be able to bust that 10K level.
Now I just have to wait until we can fly again and the conditions are right.
 

o1d_dude

'I battle gravity'
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,758
Reaction score
619
Location
Urff
Dawg, you bought one!

I was looking at LOC today with the idea of buying a LaserLOC 3.13 to go with my LaserLOC 2.23 but I then started looking at the 1.63 instead ( quicker to build, less expensive, easier to go fast, etc. ). Got interrupted and it’s still sitting in my cart.

I’ll definitely be following your build. You come up with the slick solutions and I’ll use them, too.
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
Dawg, you bought one!

I was looking at LOC today with the idea of buying a LaserLOC 3.13 to go with my LaserLOC 2.23 but I then started looking at the 1.63 instead ( quicker to build, less expensive, easier to go fast, etc. ). Got interrupted and it’s still sitting in my cart.

I’ll definitely be following your build. You come up with the slick solutions and I’ll use them, too.
Yeah! I saw your post adapting down to 29mm with an aeropack retainer on the adapter, clever. That's a pretty slick and versatile setup.
 

dhbarr

Amateur Professional
Joined
Jan 30, 2016
Messages
6,314
Reaction score
981
Try the i600r or i540wt in your sims, you'll clear m1.5 easy.
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
Try the i600r or i540wt in your sims, you'll clear m1.5 easy.
Yeah, I looked at the I540, it does fit fine, the only reason I stopped at CTI 4 gr motors is that I have a 4 gr case already. The Aerotech single use I500 T is pretty darn close to the I54o, so I'd fly the SU.
 

wmay78

Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
19
Reaction score
22
I've got a pml phobos with a 38mm mount. In the simulator i can get it over mach, but I'm concerned with the plastic nose cone. Can it handle max dynamic q? Any opinions?
 

swatkat

Down these mean skies, a kat must fly!
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
1,609
Reaction score
243
Location
Sactown, CA
I435T should also do it no sweat. I'm actually surprised the Alien interceptor wouldn't do it on something like an I600 or I435. If you want a little fast dart, the AMW Purple Parrot in 38mm is a bullet and all Fiberglass. It currently holds the alt. record on an I motor...
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
I'm actually surprised the Alien interceptor wouldn't do it on something like an I600 or I435.
It sort of does, the simulation gets to Mach 1.0-something, so it sits in the transonic zone briefly. On my alien interceptor, the surface finish isn't that super, and I added rail buttons, so I'm not sure my velocity in real life would match the sim. Plus, I wanted an excuse to build another rocket.

I've got a pml phobos with a 38mm mount. In the simulator i can get it over mach, but I'm concerned with the plastic nose cone. Can it handle max dynamic q? Any opinions?
Is it the heavy duty plastic LOC nose cone? If so, that should do fine past Mach 1.

If you have a 38/480 case, look into the I1299.
That motor is insane! I don't have the 38/480 case, but was considering getting the 38/360 case for the H999. But it is nearly 200 G acceleration in this rocket!
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
I put a H999 in my High Tech. Weighing 40 oz on the pad, it pulled 97 g's.
Awesome. It's good to know that cardboard can take that. That's crazy fast...... I bet it just disappeared.
 

Rocketjunkie

Addicted to APCP
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
4,030
Reaction score
254
The flight: Alt 3388, Motor H999, Date 9-4-11, and Location Orangeburg, SC. And the Raven file:
We used LOC nose cones on the Cloudbuster rockets we flew at LDRS X on Vulcan L750s. (Earl Cagle, Ken Pritchett and I) CB54.jpg
They simulated a max velocity of Mach 2.3. No damage besides the lake stake from recovery failure. Altitude was in the 16,000 to 20,000 range depending on finish and delay selection. (Some were 25 sec, the rest 30 sec.)
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,627
Reaction score
222
Location
Stafford, VA
I love the I1299. Flew it twice in my L1 cert rocket. Once to 4000 ft and once to 4200 after it ripped the rail lugs off. I've got another one in the ammo can just waiting for the right day. I flew a lot of H & I motors in that rocket, but those are two flights I won't forget.
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
The flight: Alt 3388, Motor H999, Date 9-4-11, and Location Orangeburg, SC. And the Raven file
I'm not able to make sense of the Raven file, but I have no doubt it was fast. Are those cloudbuster rockets carbon, fiberglass, or cardboard?
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
The AV bay will need to fit entirely within 1 38mm coupler, I think that there is enough space, but it will require some planning.

P5130440.JPG

The Proton sits on one side of the sled, and the battery on the other.

P5130441.JPG

The battery is recessed in one layer of 1/8" plywood. My intent is to secure everything well and have all the heavy parts be captive, so nothing can move around. I'll build up a small wall around the battery.

It does fit. I'm debating either adding a small switch band, or having no switch band and using push rivets to hold it into the payload section. I'm not sure which would be better.

P5130442.JPG
 

Glasspack

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Messages
629
Reaction score
144
Good luck. The whole project sounds fun.

I never did build anything specifically for exceeding mach. In my case it came as a by product of an altitude attempt. I was trying to hit 10K ft in my L2 cert rocket and put a Pro54 6GXL L935 in it. I didn't quite get 10K in the 4" rocket, but I did get mach 1.2.

I might have to look into building a mach buster...
Handyman,

Can I ask what was your LVL 2 Model and was it fiberglass or cardboard tube. I am currently working on my LVL 2 Model. Scratch built 96" tall and 4.01 diameter 54mm Motor. I am trying to build it strong enough to handle MACH 1. Not sure I can get it to that..... but some of the Sims are showing its possible.


Paul
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,627
Reaction score
222
Location
Stafford, VA
Handyman,

Can I ask what was your LVL 2 Model and was it fiberglass or cardboard tube. I am currently working on my LVL 2 Model. Scratch built 96" tall and 4.01 diameter 54mm Motor. I am trying to build it strong enough to handle MACH 1. Not sure I can get it to that..... but some of the Sims are showing its possible.


Paul
My L2 cert was scratch built of LOC tubes with two layers of 6 oz glass on them. 4" with 54mm MMT It was a zipperless design (never again on a DD rocket). The fins were 1/4" plywood and foamed inside and tip to tip with 6 oz on the outside. That fin can was almost indestructible. It once dropped from 50+ ft with no damage when the power guy cut the shock cord to get it off the main power lines running into the farm.
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,627
Reaction score
222
Location
Stafford, VA
I'm debating either adding a small switch band, or having no switch band and using push rivets to hold it into the payload section. I'm not sure which would be better.
I've never liked the push rivets. Especially with a cardboard tube for the av-bay, I usually glue a small piece of hardwood (usually oak) to the inside and use a small wood screw or sheet metal screw through the payload tube to hold it in place. I thought the extra clamping pressure of the screw allowed a smaller screw to greatly increase the friction and hold the tube in place.

I built two rockets without a switch band. The ports were through the bottom of the payload tube and the av-bay. Now I always use the switch band. Just my preference.
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
I thought the extra clamping pressure of the screw allowed a smaller screw to greatly increase the friction and hold the tube in place.
That make sense.

Now I always use the switch band. Just my preference.
I'm leaning that way. I have two rockets without a switch band, and it is kind of annoying to get everything lined up right.
 

o1d_dude

'I battle gravity'
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,758
Reaction score
619
Location
Urff
Bought my LaserLOC 1.63 today.

Should arrive in a little less than a week.

In the meantime, I’ll be working on the 2.23 to get my chops up on laminating the fins. Although instructions say laminate first then add fillets, I’m going to follow the TRF advice of doing the fillets first and then doing the lamination. I’ll have to dig out my bubble roller as I have no mylar.
 

mbeels

Yes balsa
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2019
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
914
The kit fins get the job done, but it the shape does not really appeal to me. Deltas and clipped deltas are certainly functional (and have their advantages) but a secondary (primary?) goal is to exceed Mach 1 in style. I borrowed this shape from another rocket I really like, does anyone recognize it? They are slightly larger, and I'm shifting them forward a hair, so I expect this will be slightly slower, but looking good is important.

P5140443.JPG

P5140444.JPG

I cut the fins out of 1/8" ply, transferred the crenelations (??) with a razor saw, and cleaned up the cuts with a scroll saw and small file.

P5140446.JPG

I like this much better!

P5140445.JPG
 

tOD

Sinking in the quicksand of HPR
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
501
Reaction score
223
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
The AV bay will need to fit entirely within 1 38mm coupler, I think that there is enough space, but it will require some planning.

View attachment 416397

The Proton sits on one side of the sled, and the battery on the other.

View attachment 416398

The battery is recessed in one layer of 1/8" plywood. My intent is to secure everything well and have all the heavy parts be captive, so nothing can move around. I'll build up a small wall around the battery.

It does fit. I'm debating either adding a small switch band, or having no switch band and using push rivets to hold it into the payload section. I'm not sure which would be better.

View attachment 416399
That looks a little like the bay I built for my 1.63 IQSY Tomahawk. I used a Quark. Plus yours looks neater than mine.
 

Attachments

2
Top