mh9162013
Well-Known Member
I didn't say they were dishonest. I said they could have been more honest; there's a big difference there.But they weren't dishonest about it.
I didn't say they were dishonest. I said they could have been more honest; there's a big difference there.But they weren't dishonest about it.
If we are in this discussion because of Estes prices going up, does that really push you to composites? Maybe the prices become closer but do composite motors come with suitable igniters? I have a lot of Aerotech motors that did not come with suitable igniters so I have no way of launching them until I pony up quite a bit for new igniters. And I just remembered I bought a couple of Aerotech SU from a guy at the club who was getting out of rocketry, I didn't notice if they came with suitable igniters.Composites have very different characteristics from BP and offer a lot of variety. And with single-use motors it’s really no different from flying BP, logistics and effort-wise.
I think this strikes at the heart of the bellyaching in this thread. We’re coming to terms with the fact that something we used to be able to count on as always available at a good price is now going to be either a) something we get less of, or b) something that is only available occasionally when on sale.Regardless of the outcome of Estepocalypse (nice one!) the outcome for me will be the same - the number of kits and motors will be adjusted to fit my wallet
QJets come with suitable igniters, and they’re the best comparison to Estes BP engines.If we are in this discussion because of Estes prices going up, does that really push you to composites? Maybe the prices become closer but do composite motors come with suitable igniters?
I keep buying D and E engines when I go to Hobby Lobby on the, maybe mistaken, belief that their prices might go up also.
All the AT motors and reloads come with an igniter. They DON'T come with any spares.I have a lot of Aerotech motors that did not come with suitable igniters so I have no way of launching them until I pony up quite a bit for new igniters. And I just remembered I bought a couple of Aerotech SU from a guy at the club who was getting out of rocketry, I didn't notice if they came with suitable igniters.
By saying what? We're going to send you a bunch of crap you won't think is worth the price? I don't think they realistically could have been. Mystery boxes are often a way to get rid of old stock; this particular mystery box sale was no exception.I didn't say they were dishonest. I said they could have been more honest; there's a big difference there.
When I've had failures, Aerotech has warrantied them with replacements plus spares. Which were good to have, because they had a bad run of igniters for a while. Recent ones seem better, and treating them very gingerly, it's been a while since I've had one fail.If we are in this discussion because of Estes prices going up, does that really push you to composites? Maybe the prices become closer but do composite motors come with suitable igniters? I have a lot of Aerotech motors that did not come with suitable igniters so I have no way of launching them until I pony up quite a bit for new igniters. And I just remembered I bought a couple of Aerotech SU from a guy at the club who was getting out of rocketry, I didn't notice if they came with suitable igniters.
Right there with you, except I used to have one bird heavy enough to fly on the D12-5.I would totally do that if they stocked D12-7 and E12-8. But they don't, so I get -0, B6-6 and C6-7 there.
My 7x18 cluster has emptied multiple Hobby Lobbies of C6-7s multiple times
Estes could have done the following differently with their mystery box:By saying what? We're going to send you a bunch of crap you won't think is worth the price? I don't think they realistically could have been. Mystery boxes are often a way to get rid of old stock; this particular mystery box sale was no exception.
That's what came to my mind. I would think that a vendor of Estes rocket stuff can't advertise the "real" price of the item if it is lower than MSRP, but the vendor can offer the lower price once you put the item into your shopping cart. That is true for other industries, although I have not had to do "add the item to your cart to see our great low price" in a while.In other places where MAPs are enforced a common workaround is that one has to put an item in the shopping cart to see the actual price. I wouldn't be surprised to see some vendors do that here, if Randy's info is correct (and I've no reason to doubt his word).
I have a cart at AC Supply right now that I may enrich with more motors just to get ahead of this if it's true. One more business day to April 1st. *sigh*
Estes could have done the following differently with their mystery box:
1. They said the value was based on a retail price. Estes apparently meant the retail price on their website. In practice, Estes.com's prices aren't retail, they're MSRP. I know you disagree, but when someone asks how much a particular Estes rocket costs, most people are going to respond with prices they will typically see (Amazon, AC Supply, etc.), not what Estes is asking on its own website. I know that may not technnically be what the definition of "retail" is, but we're explaining people's expectations and why they were what they were, not what hornbook law is.
2. Estes didn't have to include two very similar products (like starter sets) in the same box.
3. Estes wasn't very clear about the type of rockets you might get in the mystery box. If I recall correctly, the website was set up so that you thought you had a reasonable chance of getting kits other than the same 3 or 4 start sets. But in reality, basically the bulk (value-wise) was 1 or more starter set(s).
4. There was talk that some of what you got in the mystery box wasn't complete, ie there were missing components/parts.
Given the above, I think it's understandable people were annoyed with their mystery boxes. Again, I'm not saying Estes lied or did anything unlawful, but I do think Estes could have handled the mystery box promotion better.
All that being said, I rarely buy mystery boxes because I'm always of the assumption that the person/company selling it will try to trick me. If I buy a mystery box, it's for the thrill, not what's inside.
It's the one in my avatar (photo courtway of Harry). It was started but never finished by a late DARS member named Bob Wilson I never had the pleasure of meeting. It had collected a lot of hanger rash before I adopted it from the DARS stash, so I significantly rebuilt it in the process of finishing it and bringing it to flight.At $21 plus tax per button press, I hope it's worth it. Remind me what the rocket is?
Yeah, I remember looking at that and thinking it was almost certain to be a bunch of junk I probably wouldn't want sitting around even if it was free. And then they sent me a Leaper that I didn't want sitting around even if it was free. But at least it was free.4. I'm sure Estes sent missing parts to those that asked; they do that for every other kit you buy from them.
I totally agree they "could have handled it better," and also to your reason you don't buy mystery boxes. It's like gambling; ultimately the house wins. That's also why I don't have much sympathy for people who were disappointed with their purchases.
Hmm? Suitable igniters?If we are in this discussion because of Estes prices going up, does that really push you to composites? Maybe the prices become closer but do composite motors come with suitable igniters? I have a lot of Aerotech motors that did not come with suitable igniters so I have no way of launching them until I pony up quite a bit for new igniters. And I just remembered I bought a couple of Aerotech SU from a guy at the club who was getting out of rocketry, I didn't notice if they came with suitable igniters.
Yes, but WHAT a button press! Seven C6’s all (hopefully) lighting at the same. I love clusters, but three at once is the most I have tried.At $21 plus tax per button press, I hope it's worth it. Remind me what the rocket is?
I cut my Aerotech teeth on the F42T and F67W, and I witnessed a lot of igniters where the pyrogen would flake off if you so much as looked at them wrong. Happily I've not run into that lately.Hmm? Suitable igniters?
Which Aerotech motors are you referring too?
I said "suitable igniter". In the old days Aerotech engines came with Copperhead igniters and back then nobody accepted them as suitable. Our local vendor gave away his homemade igniters with every engine sold and I never had a failure from them. I have quite a few of the old Copperhead igniters still in their little tubes. The igniters that Aerotech sells right now are about $6 each. If we are complaining about paying $10 each for Estes E12 and talking about switching to an Aerotech E30 instead consider that you have to spend another $6 per motor for an igniter. (But I love flying the E30.)All the AT motors and reloads come with an igniter.
If we are complaining about paying $10 each for Estes E12 and talking about switching to an Aerotech E30 instead consider that you have to spend another $6 per motor for an igniter.
Self-inflicted injury, and nobody but you knows you've done it. Besides, it's easily resolved by ordering igniters along with all the other garbage that most of us order from rocketry vendors all the time! Or simply ask your local vendor, if you have one.So the usual scenario is: you have a misfire, hurriedly "borrow" one from another motor/reload, have a good flight, forget you stole the igniter, a while later go another launch, complain about missing igniter ... REPEAT... Eventually you have a bunch of motors without igniters...
Plenty of other places to get more reliable igniters, or just simply 'spares' for significantly less than that! Here's one of them:The igniters that Aerotech sells right now are about $6 each. If we are complaining about paying $10 each for Estes E12 and talking about switching to an Aerotech E30 instead consider that you have to spend another $6 per motor for an igniter. (But I love flying the E30.)
True, especially since AT went away from Crapperheads to a standard igniter.I don’t understand this need. AT's igniters have been as reliable as Estes igniters for me.
True, especially since AT went away from Crapperheads to a standard igniter.
You know, I don't really get all the hate towards the copperhead igniters
During my first foray into HPR, copperheads were the standard for AT. I had a couple short out. The trick was to deburr the sides with an X-Acto knife and separate the strips and try to keep them insulated on the pad. I went to LDRS 19 in 2000 where Gary and crew were handing out the new AT igniters and they worked beautifully.You know, I don't really get all the hate towards the copperhead igniters. They were already on their way out by the time I was getting into HPR, but of the dozen or so older stock motors with copperheads that I flew until they were depleted, the only one that failed to light the motor was one that fell out and burned on the ground because I didn't secure it well enough.
I said "suitable igniter". In the old days Aerotech engines came with Copperhead igniter....
Maybe newer ones were better? I never even heard of deburring the sides of them or peeling them. I just stuck them in and used the piece of tape on each side trick, and they worked fine.During my first foray into HPR, copperheads were the standard for AT. I had a couple short out. The trick was to deburr the sides with an X-Acto knife and separate the strips and try to keep them insulated on the pad. I went to LDRS 19 in 2000 where Gary and crew were handing out the new AT igniters and they worked beautifully.
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