Need Suggestions for Rebuilding a Estes 1:100 Apollo Saturn V #1969 (Long)

[Joe Maguire]

I'm looking for suggestions on how I can make lemonade from a self-inflicted lemon, or more accurately, remake a Saturn V that became a highly-detailed lawn dart.

Since they say a rocket is not truly a rocket until you fly it, in mid-September I decided to launch my Estes #1969 Apollo Saturn V that I had built pre-COVID. Because I overbuilt the model to make it more sturdy and used some third-party parts to make it look more realistic, I decided to make its first flight on an Aerotech E20-4 rather than an Estes E15. I had briefly considered going straight to an F motor (one of the changes I made was using a 29 mm tube to accommodate larger engines), but I went with the E20. Bad mistake! As soon as it cleared the launch rod and started arcing over, I knew it was in trouble. The Saturn V as I built it was still too heavy even for the Aerotech motor. The delay was 4 seconds, and the ejection charge fired just before or as the Saturn V went nose-first into the ground. Fortunately, the lower part (S-I and S-II stages) survived intact thanks to the ejection charge firing in time to save that section, but now I face the challenge of rebuilding the upper section.



Although Sirius Rocketry is currently out of stock on the 1:100 LES/CM one-piece resin cast assembly, I found another one on Shapeways that is a bit more expensive but a good substitute. The same source also has a molded Block II Service Module that can replace the Estes plain SM tube (which is actually better than the SM wrap sticker I had used to mimic the silver/aluminum sections and white radiators).

I still have the patterns for the cardboard "base" for the transition between the S-II second stage and S-IV-B third stage that the plastic wrap would cover (the pattern in the Estes kit is a scooch too short/small, which is a known issue, but I found a pattern online that works thanks to Rocketry Forum, and I made a couple of copies just in case I had botched cutting it out the first time). I also can make the upper and lower centering rings for the coupler that attaches to the bottom of that transition that slides into the main body. I believe I can still get decals/stickers from Stickershock for that model (they actually were easier to apply than the Estes decals), so I'm in good shape there. Finally, Estes does sell a replacement LM shroud for the transition from the S-IV-B third stage to the CSM.

This is where my problems begin.

Online, Estes also sold the plastic wraps set for the #1969 kit. While they sell the body tube for the lower part (S-I and S-II stages), they did not offer the body tubes for the S-IV-B and Apollo SM. I sent them two E-mails a week apart inquiring about the availability of the tubes, and they still haven't replied to them. I held off ordering the LM shroud and plastic wraps so as to save postage should the tubes become available. Guess what? In the month that I have been waiting for a reply, that plastic wraps set is now sold out! I fear that since they are no longer selling the #1969 kit (they only have the Skylab Saturn V available now), those wraps are the last of the production run and won't be available again.

So, now I have to figure out how to rebuild or source:

• The body tube for the S-IV-B
• A coupler to fit in the main body
• The plastic wraps for the upper and lower part of the S-IV-B
• The plastic wrap for the S-II to S-IV-B transition

The Estes instructions show a six-digit SKU number for that tube, but it does not describe it as a BT-XX tube as they once did back in the day, so I have no idea if that tube is even available in a length I can cut down. Remember, it has to be not just long enough for the third stage, but it goes down to the base of the coupler Perhaps Estes does have that, and if they return my voice mail or answer one of my E-mails, perhaps I'll see if it is available somehow.

I've looked online for that transition or even the S-IV-B as a 3-D printed part, but I've had no luck, at least in 1:100 scale.

I was thinking that it would be pretty easy for someone to reproduce that coupler via 3-D printing; it's just a straight forward tube, and I can get its inside/outside dimensions and length by measuring the surviving part (which appears to have been undamaged); it might also be possible to salvage the coupler if I cut it out carefully with a hobby knife or my Dremel tool. There might be hope for the S-IV-B tube, too; maybe I could get that "printed" by using the outside diameter of the LM shroud coupler to determine the inside diameter of the tube, and the lip where the LM coupler meets the tube as its outside diameter. I can get the length of the tube by measuring what was crushed and also relying on scale drawings and figuring the length at 1:100 scale (also allowing for the part of the tube that extends down into the coupler).

The tricky part is going to be the wraps. I don't want to just paint the patterns on bare paper or plastic; after all the trouble I went through to upgrade the model with better scale parts, I don't want to go low-tech. I could do it the hard-way and cut/apply stringers to simulate the ribbed metal represented by the wraps; yes, that's tedious, but I suppose I have all winter until my club starts flying again in April. ; ) Another thought I had was to trim salvageable parts of those wraps to be used as a pattern and get those "printed" in 1" or 2" length sections and piece multiple sections together, and then glue antennas, thrusters, etc. to those "wraps."

What other suggestions might you have for replacing or replicating those four items? (Believe me, once I rebuild it, I will weigh it and run a RockSim to estimate what motor I will need. Lesson learned.)

 

[kuririn]

Body tube for the SM is a BT-58.
The S IVB is a BT-80.
The main tube is a BT-101, so you want a coupler for that.
Erockets has those three parts:
https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-cou...g-1pk-craft-paper-sem-cpl-101-6-discontinued/https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-body-tube-bt-58-1-75-long-sem-bt-58my/https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-body-tube-bt-80-8-81-long-sem-bt-80sv/
As for wraps, there was a guy who was selling vacuformed wraps of the Saturn V around ten years ago, but I don't know if he still does that. You can try PMing him here or at Ye Olde Rocket Forum. His user name is grafgulch.
Otherwise Apogee sells generic corrugated plastic wraps.
If you're really ambitious and patient, you can glue individual strips of styrene to simulate the corrugations.
http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-scratch-building-plastic-supplies#str_s=rodsGood luck.

 

[Alan15578]

You sound like you have a good handle on this, so I will not give any specific suggestions. I have seen one that had nosed in and was rebuilt as a Skylab launcher, but of course now there is a kit for that. You might also enjoy looking through NIRA's The Leading Edge newletter archives for a series by Mark Bundick, "This Old Rocket."

 

[Joe Maguire]

Body tube for the SM is a BT-58.
The S IVB is a BT-80.
The main tube is a BT-101, so you want a coupler for that.
Erockets has those three parts:
https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-cou...g-1pk-craft-paper-sem-cpl-101-6-discontinued/https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-body-tube-bt-58-1-75-long-sem-bt-58my/https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-body-tube-bt-80-8-81-long-sem-bt-80sv/
As for wraps, there was a guy who was selling vacuformed wraps of the Saturn V around ten years ago, but I don't know if he still does that. You can try PMing him here or at Ye Olde Rocket Forum. His user name is grafgulch.
Otherwise Apogee sells generic corrugated plastic wraps.
If you're really ambitious and patient, you can glue individual strips of styrene to simulate the corrugations.
http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-scratch-building-plastic-supplies#str_s=rodsGood luck.

The leads on those tubes really helps! That will take care of a lot of the problems. As I mentioned, if I have to make my own corrugated sections using stringers, I have all winter to do that. ;-)

 

[Raptor 2]

I had the same experience when I launched my scratch built Delta IV Heavy. Will be repairing it over winter. No shelf queens here.

 

[mikeyd]

You might be interested in these
https://estesrockets.com/products/lem-shroud-saturn-vhttps://estesrockets.com/products/vacuum-formed-parts-saturn-vmaybe Estes will have the vacuum-formed wraps back in stock soon, you might email them.

 

[Joe Maguire]

You might be interested in these
https://estesrockets.com/products/lem-shroud-saturn-vhttps://estesrockets.com/products/vacuum-formed-parts-saturn-vmaybe Estes will have the vacuum-formed wraps back in stock soon, you might email them.

I am well aware of the LM shroud being available. I’m angry that while waiting for them to respond about the tubes, the wraps went out-of-stock. Since the #1969 kit is out of production, I can’t see them firing things up just to make a few wraps sets.

I E-mailed them twice about a month ago and left a phone message for them this week. I still have not heard back from them. This is bad customer service. It’s not like Estes is a part-time sole proprietor operating out of a garage on evenings and weekends; I “get” the customer service challenges of a mom-and-pop operation, but Estes has been around since 1958, so I’d have thought they’d have this customer service thing figured out by now. Are they so overwhelmed by inquiries that it takes a month or more to respond?

 

[Astrobuf]

I am well aware of the LM shroud being available. I’m angry that while waiting for them to respond about the tubes, the wraps went out-of-stock. Since the #1969 kit is out of production, I can’t see them firing things up just to make a few wraps sets.

I E-mailed them twice about a month ago and left a phone message for them this week. I still have not heard back from them. This is bad customer service. It’s not like Estes is a part-time sole proprietor operating out of a garage on evenings and weekends; I “get” the customer service challenges of a mom-and-pop operation, but Estes has been around since 1958, so I’d have thought they’d have this customer service thing figured out by now. Are they so overwhelmed by inquiries that it takes a month or more to respond?

I wonder if this is a consequence of a remote work policy? I have found the quality of all sorts of supplier customer service providers I deal with has really pranged in the last 4 years.

Thx Dr Covid!

 

[JPalmer621]

Erockets has the capsule bt58 and the bat 80. Estes still has wraps. Look up Apollo in the search field

 

[Joe Maguire]

Update: Estes finally replied to me about a month later; they waited until they could scrounge enough parts together (I do wish they had told me "Let me see what we can do" early on; it felt as if they were ignoring me, which generated my frustration). They sent me almost everything I needed to rebuild the entire upper section. The only thing they did not have was the wrap for the S-IVB; I am going to have to either do it by hand (not looking forward to carving the individual corrugations out of pencil lead-thin basswood!) or perhaps get someone with a 3D printer to at least recreate the corrugations and I can then create/carve and glue on the various motors, antennae, etc. that would have been built into that vacuum section.

Unfortunately, Estes is sold out of the complete vacuum parts set, so I am grateful to at least have the transition wrap for the S-II to S-IVB, not to mention the appropriate tubes and centering rings. I genuinely appreciate that Estes sent those to me gratis, even though I was willing to pay for the parts. Hopefully, I will be able to fly my rebuilt Saturn V at my club's "Fillible's Folly" launch in September near Sheridan and McMinnville, OR.

 

[ReynoldsSlumber]

When you get to the escape tower, you could make it more survivable against breaking off (in normal landings!) by spring-loading it, like a hood ornament.

 

[Joe Maguire]

Interesting idea... perhaps I'll make a couple of CSM/LES sets and use that spring-loading technique on one of them!

 

[lw_hughes]

You need a Bambu lab printer, with free online files or a few mins in tinkercad you can make any parts you need!

 

[Bravo52]

One option is to just rebuild it to fly. You can use the standard body tubes and build to the original shape. Then use paper printed wraps to "look" the part. When I build Estes Sat Vs, I always put a rod in the NC to the Escape tower for a more ridge support. That will add some nose weight to the end and a lot of rigidity. I use a piece of coat hanger wire.