Estes going to MAP = MSRP for all online sellers 4/1?

[SolarYellow]

If I was ACS and wanted my new system to be robust, I would be talking with a web developer about coming up with something like individualized coupon codes emailed to each customer with an active account created on the site and only functional for that customer's account, only on Estes products. Codes would only be seen to be effective after Estes items were added to the customer's cart.

A key goal would be to eliminate the sharing of coupon codes and posting them on the web. I would kick off the program with an email to every account holder with a "click here to receive your code" link. New customers would receive the kickoff email by fully setting up an account on the site with ship-to and bill-to addresses, email, phone, etc. Codes would work durably and be reusable, obviously. It would be possible on the backend of the site to easily update the standard discount accessed by the code for all customers.

I'm pretty sure that would get around even reasonably stringent existing legal MAP requirements as I've had them explained to me in the past.

 

[Rob Campbell]

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[4regt4]

When I was a kid, there were "Fair Trade Laws", where retailers must sell Fair Trade items at full retail. It wasn't just advertise at retail, the price was actually fixed at retail. No discounts, no special sale prices. Might have been just an Oregon thing, not sure. Anyway, a chain of membership only discount department stores opened. Membership was a joke, it was like a one time fee of $10 for lifetime. You had to show your card to be "buzzed" through the gate. I still have my card from 1974. But everything was at a substantial discount to everywhere else.

A few years later, the Fair Trade Laws were seen as restraint of trade, and rescinded. Meaning that the other stores started matching the membership store's prices.

Hans.

 

[BEC]

The price increase has brought the cost of Estes motors within a dollar or so per motor of AeroTech composites. I know which one's I'd rather be flying.

E16-4 - $25.49
E30-4 - $28.89
F15-6 - $29.99
F44-8 - $33.14

This is interesting, but the second two, in particular, are so different in performance as to hardly be comparable. The Estes F15 is a 50 N-s motor that burns for over 3 seconds - long and slow. The Aerotech F44 is barely an F at 41 N-s and spends its energy in a quick kick of less than one second.

But your point is well taken that this MAP thing, if it holds, makes Q-Jets and small Aerotech-branded motors much more cost-per-flight competitive.

I have lots of BP motors on hand (and lots of 18mm Q-Jets) so I can wait to see how the dust settles. My ordered-just-before-April 1st order from AC Supply should be here Friday. It has A3-6Ts, A10-0Ts and Q-Jet E26-7Ws in it mostly.

 

[SolarYellow]

I once heard of someone getting into serious legal trouble for selling certain groceries too inexpensively in their convenience store in California in what would have been the '80s.

 

[jmasterj]

This is interesting, but the second two, in particular, are so different in performance as to hardly be comparable. The Estes F15 is a 50 N-s motor that burns for over 3 seconds - long and slow. The Aerotech F44 is barely an F at 41 N-s and spends its energy in a quick kick of less than one second.

But your point is well taken that this MAP thing, if it holds, makes Q-Jets and small Aerotech-branded motors much more cost-per-flight competitive.

I have lots of BP motors on hand (and lots of 18mm Q-Jets) so I can wait to see how the dust settles. My ordered-just-before-April 1st order from AC Supply should be here Friday. It has A3-6Ts, A10-0Ts and Q-Jet E26-7Ws in it mostly.

The morning appropriate F15 comparisons are the F20W and F27R, longer-burning motors with ~50 Ns of impulse. They retail at $44 but are available from Hobbylinc for less than $35, no Hazmat.

 

[gdjsky01]

Hobby Lobby is great and I totally agree with their business plan . . . My wife and I often find ourselves singing along to the wonderful music, played in the store !

Same thing goes for Chick-Fil-A . . . Excellent business plan, moral backbone, and great food . . . We go there often !

Dave F.

Can't respond or I'll get censored. Whatever. You made a typo... I am sure you meant immoral backbone. Dollars talk. I have enough kits to last a lifetime. Estes be gone. And HL? Well of course barcodes are the work of the... oops... there I go... HL and Chick a filet.. LOL!

 

[tsmith1315]

This may be my Kick in the ass to finally get into Composites.

You’ll be glad you did!

 

[tbonerocketeer]

I think that’s going to be where we end up eventually though I am a bit surprised that the initial reaction from some of the big online retailers was to just set their prices at the Estes MSRP.

Unless they were’t given much notice. I’d have expected something other than that. But I have zero experience with online retail sales software - setting up “in cart” pricing may take way more resources than just clicking a selection on a menu.

Its not even an option on my cart. Stuff like that is custom development

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Does Hobby Lobby not use regular distributors?

They buy direct

 

[Sooner Boomer]

They buy direct

Not only does HL buy direct from Estes, but the packaging is specific to them, with the price(s) now pre-printed on the card inside the package.

This whole thing makes me so mad I'm going out next weekend and burn some Estes motors in protest! See what they have to say about *that*!

 

[PDawg]

I just stocked up with enough for at least a year, once it runs out I may just build bigger stuff for Club launches and eliminate the 150+ launches I do locally. I’ve got other hobbies.

 

[neil_w]

This may be my Kick in the ass to finally get into Composites.

Even if you were to keep buying Estes BP motors, there’s absolutely zero reason not to fly composites *also*. I mean, zero.

Composites have very different characteristics from BP and offer a lot of variety. And with single-use motors it’s really no different from flying BP, logistics and effort-wise.

About the only thing that’s different is the need for a beefier launch controller for the composite igniters. Not an issue if you fly with a club.

 

[Pem Tech]

For those old enough to remember, the reason that WM stopped carrying rockets was that rockets are classified as "toys" in their purchasing/stocking scheme and the new "toy buyer" for WM didn't want them any longer. Maybe sales were too low, I never heard a rationale, only that they decided not to carry them. IIRC, this was the same toy buyer that stopped carrying most plastic models as well as Testors model paints.

Gone are the days one would cruise up and down the model aisle ogling all those colorful, shrink-wrapped goodies. Both sides of the aisle!
*sigh*

 

[Bill S]

All of you talking about going with Q-Jets had better be sure you get the "new clay formulation", and then even then its a crapshoot as to whether you get a CATO or not. With the old
formulation, I had about a 1 in 3 CATO rate, wasn't at all pleased about that. So factor in the higher probability of an CATO and having to repair or replace rockets more often if you go that route.

That being said, some of my best rockets do so much better on Q-Jets than black powder engines, but I'm no longer willing to roll the dice.

 

[mh9162013]

Even if you were to keep buying Estes BP motors, there’s absolutely zero reason not to fly composites *also*. I mean, zero.

The initial runs of Q-jets were a bit too big and had other problems, if I recall. Sure, they've been fixed, but who knows if what you're buying is the new or old stuff.

Then there's the issue of chuffing and the "thingy" sticking out the top (ejection charge). This can cause problems for some rocket builds (not most, but a few), and insertion has to be done just right if usingn an engine hook.

Lastly, I'm not sure what use an spent composite engine casing has. Spent BP casings are very useful...to me at least, as I never have enough.

Not saying composite are bad or worse then BP, but they're not perfect.

 

[Pem Tech]

Boycotting Estes is a worthwhile consideration . . .

Dave F.

If anyone would like to come across with venture capital we'd be willing to take them on.

 

[SolarYellow]

Several of us here could really use a chill pill. We're on Day 5 of the Estepocalypse. I have enough motors to last six months, easily. I'll worry about the future that I can't really do anything about anyway when I start not being able to fly my rockets with the motors I want without paying MSRP. (I don't really expect that to happen.)

 

[Scott_650]

Several of us here could really use a chill pill. We're on Day 5 of the Estepocalypse. I have enough motors to last six months, easily. I'll worry about the future that I can't really do anything about anyway when I start not being able to fly my rockets with the motors I want without paying MSRP. (I don't really expect that to happen.)

Regardless of the outcome of Estepocalypse (nice one!) the outcome for me will be the same - the number of kits and motors will be adjusted to fit my wallet

 

[speed]

Can't respond or I'll get censored. Whatever. You made a typo... I am sure you meant immoral backbone. Dollars talk. I have enough kits to last a lifetime. Estes be gone. And HL? Well of course barcodes are the work of the... oops... there I go... HL and Chick a filet.. LOL!

...

 

[Pappy]

my own love affair with estes ended when they sent me a mystery box full of junk and their customer service guy basically told me to shut up and enjoy the gruel they're force feeding me. i don't have disdain for them, but the twinkle in my eye has disappeared. there's no shortage of kits available on ebay, and Aerotech is certainly digesting all this rapidly, and with aplomb i imagine. i've said it before but it bears repeating... when one guy drops the ball, another picks it up for the scoop and score.

 

[Pappy]

can we not do this divisive s* right now? i'm having fun bashin' estes.

 

[bad_idea]

Several of us here could really use a chill pill. We're on Day 5 of the Estepocalypse.

I speedran the stages of grief in a couple of hours Saturday morning. Initially I was horrified, but by early afternoon, I was delighted at the prospect of the steeply discounted Qjets now sold at AC Supply, especially my current crush, the E35.

Kits are a very small part of what I buy (and generally only as cheap parts when on sale or as donors for hard-to-find nosecones), so it's mainly the motors that mattered to me, and AC still has me covered, just with different - and in some ways better - motors.

 

[SolarYellow]

Jeez, we need to hang out one of these days.

 

[jmasterj]

my own love affair with estes ended when they sent me a mystery box full of junk and their customer service guy basically told me to shut up and enjoy the gruel they're force feeding me.

Yeah, they really forced you to buy a mystery box, didn't they.

 

[Ulexis]

Mmmmmmm.....gruel.

 

[mh9162013]

Yeah, they really forced you to buy a mystery box, didn't they.

To be fair to @Pappy, I think Estes could have been a little bit more honest about the value of what was in the mystery box. But then again, buying mystery boxes is always a crapshoot. So I think some blame can go both ways.

 

[jmasterj]

To be fair to @Pappy, I think Estes could have been a little bit more honest about the value of what was in the mystery box. But then again, buying mystery boxes is always a crapshoot. So I think some blame can go both ways.

They were honest; it was a certain retail value. It didn't take a genius to figure out that $55 launch sets were going to pad those numbers. People shouldn't complain when they get exactly what it said on the tin.

That said, I think it was a bad marketing decision from Estes. They should have known it was going to produce a high rate of complaints. But they weren't dishonest about it.

 

[SolarYellow]

Mmmmmmm.....gruel.

Not quite.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

I keep buying D and E engines when I go to Hobby Lobby on the, maybe mistaken, belief that their prices might go up also.