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Rubr_Duky

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I have made a rocket that when complete weighs less than 454g, and uses less than 113g of propellant, but by design it is intended to reach nearly 13,000'.

Now, technically, according to FAA regulations, and NAR rules, that does not require any certification or notification to fly, but 10k is controlled airspace by the FAA< and you are supposed to get permission to enter it (this is what a waiver allows) but in this case, with this rocket, do I need it?

And what are the penalties if I do fly without a waiver, and someone decides they don't like it? I'm not NAR or TRA, and there will only be some family there, not a club launch. Am I going to get F-16s circling, trying to shoot my rocket down?

Anyone?

Thanks

:D
RD
 

BlueNinja

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I can't answer your question, for safety's sake i would go ahead and apply for a wavier.



What kind of motor are you using?
 

shockwaveriderz

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If the model in question is indeed a model rocket, ie < 454 grams total weight, < 113 g total propllant weight, then by definition it is a model rocketry and you can launch it without a waiver to any altitude .......the FAA waivers are based on weight and propellant not how high it is going to go as far as model rocket are concerned......

Just besure to scan the sky before launching..........and if you are within 5 miles of an airport I would still notify them with a courtesy call .....
 

shreadvector

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Model Rockets as defined in the FAR are specifically exempted AS LONG as you do not present a hazard to aircraft or persons.

There is nothing to get a waiver of. In other words, there are no sections of the FAR that you want them to allow you to exceed (that is what a "waiver" is - you ask them to "waive" parts of the regulations). You can NEVER waive the part about presenting a hazard to aircraft or persons. Simply DO NOT launch in a hazardous manner. In other words, do not launch into a busy traffic path (line of jets going into major airport or in-line with a small airport runway) and don not launch when you see ANY aircraft in the area.

They exempted Model Rockets for a reason. You should be good to go as far as the FAA is concerned. Now all you have to worry about is launching it from a legal spot on the ground with adequate recovery area within the area you have permission to be using.

Originally posted by Rubr_Duky
I have made a rocket that when complete weighs less than 454g, and uses less than 113g of propellant, but by design it is intended to reach nearly 13,000'.

Now, technically, according to FAA regulations, and NAR rules, that does not require any certification or notification to fly, but 10k is controlled airspace by the FAA< and you are supposed to get permission to enter it (this is what a waiver allows) but in this case, with this rocket, do I need it?

And what are the penalties if I do fly without a waiver, and someone decides they don't like it? I'm not NAR or TRA, and there will only be some family there, not a club launch. Am I going to get F-16s circling, trying to shoot my rocket down?

Anyone?

Thanks

:D
RD
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by Rubr_Duky
Now, technically, according to FAA regulations, and NAR rules, that does not require any certification or notification to fly, but 10k is controlled airspace by the FAA< and you are supposed to get permission to enter it (this is what a waiver allows) but in this case, with this rocket, do I need it?
If 10K is controlled airspace (or you are in any other way encroaching on controlled airspace) then despite being below the size limitations, you must comply with all of 101.25, which is the notification clause.

The answer is: yes, if 10K is controlled, you need it. It's free for the asking, so there's no reason not to. If you need it and don't get it and fly anyway, you're violating a federal regulation. If you do that an get caught, you go to federal court. If that happens, it'll come out that you could have had clearance for the asking but didn't, and they'd be quite likely to forbid you from owning or flying rockets. At minimum.

Even when you don't "need" it, you can ask for it, if for no other reason than to offer protection to any aircraft by making notice available to them through ATC. If they don't want to bother, you tried.

Figure: mid-level legal beagles are always trying to make a name and career for themselves. They're the ones tasked with taking care of such things as this hypothetical violation. They tend to come down as hard as they can for reasons beyond simply carrying out the law. With the Patriot Act in force, they can come down much harder and with less control than they could before. Don't think they won't. They used this act to come down on a strip club owner in Nevada for license violations. It got shot down, but they caused him a great deal of trouble. You don't want this kind of trouble, much less the likely results with or without Patriot being called to use.

Here's a text copy of the unmanned rocket FAA regs.
 

jerryb

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Originally posted by DynaSoar

Here's a text copy of the unmanned rocket FAA regs.

THANKS for the info... if I'm reading this correct... NO flights between sunset and sunrise.... hmmm... guess that scraps the night launches....
 

gerbs4me

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its better to be safe than sorry, if this rocket your lunching weighs less then a pound and goes 13,000' I doubt you'll get it back.
 

Missileman

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Based on propellant weight, after looking around the Aerotech website, and if it is an ACPC motor, you are in the H impulse range.
The Tripoli record for H motors is just over 10,000 ft'
If you can get 13,000 you could set a new record at a Tripoli launch and not have to worry about a waiver.
PS: you also need a waiver if you are within 5 miles of an airport.
 

shreadvector

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No, No, No.

"Model Rockets" below the listed weight limits are EXEMPT as described.

You only wuoted and linked to a small part of the FAR.

The Model Rocket exemption is near the beginning. Read the entire FAR for complete context and meaning.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.15&idno=14

Read 101.1 (it's at the beginning and tells you what IS and IS NOT cevered by the regulations.



Originally posted by DynaSoar
If 10K is controlled airspace (or you are in any other way encroaching on controlled airspace) then despite being below the size limitations, you must comply with all of 101.25, which is the notification clause.

The answer is: yes, if 10K is controlled, you need it. It's free for the asking, so there's no reason not to. If you need it and don't get it and fly anyway, you're violating a federal regulation. If you do that an get caught, you go to federal court. If that happens, it'll come out that you could have had clearance for the asking but didn't, and they'd be quite likely to forbid you from owning or flying rockets. At minimum.

Even when you don't "need" it, you can ask for it, if for no other reason than to offer protection to any aircraft by making notice available to them through ATC. If they don't want to bother, you tried.

Figure: mid-level legal beagles are always trying to make a name and career for themselves. They're the ones tasked with taking care of such things as this hypothetical violation. They tend to come down as hard as they can for reasons beyond simply carrying out the law. With the Patriot Act in force, they can come down much harder and with less control than they could before. Don't think they won't. They used this act to come down on a strip club owner in Nevada for license violations. It got shot down, but they caused him a great deal of trouble. You don't want this kind of trouble, much less the likely results with or without Patriot being called to use.

Here's a text copy of the unmanned rocket FAA regs.
 

Rubr_Duky

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jerryb - unless your waiver says you can, and there are usually illumination requirements for those night launches, aren't there?

Gerbs - That's what RDF is for. ;-)

DynaSoar - I am going to apply to get one anyways, but in case they say no, I believe that I am still safe because I am adhering to the regulations. Shreadvector I think, is right. That class of model rockets, wehghing less than one pound, and using less than 113g of propellant are exempt:

From 101.1:

(3) Any unmanned rocket except:
(i) Aerial firework displays; and,
(ii) Model rockets:
(a) Using not more than four ounces of propellant;
(b) Using a slow-burning propellant;
(c) Made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic, containing no substantial metal parts and weighing not more than 16 ounces, including the propellant; and
(d) Operated in a manner that does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.

missileman - The impulse range is still within 'Model Rocketry' according to NAR, being >320Ns

From NAR Model Rocket Safety Code, Pt. 7:

Size. My model rocket will not weigh more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces) at liftoff and will not contain more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant or 320 N-sec (71.9 pound-seconds) of total impulse. If my model rocket weighs more than one pound (453 grams) at liftoff or has more than four ounces (113 grams) of propellant, I will check and comply with Federal Aviation Administration regulations before flying.

and is classified as "two G's"

http://nar.org/NARmrsc.html

I have 2 motor configs:
D13, F20, G40 = 205Ns & 102.2g propellant
D24, F50, G80 = 220Ns & 104.4g propellant

4 oz = 113.5g

The nar high power code defines 160.01 - 320.00Ns to be an H as well, but they do show that range to be "Two G's" in their model safety code.

:D
RD
 

Rubr_Duky

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Someone posted that "H Impulse is not a Model Rocket"

Except that it really is. 'Model Rockets' must use motors that have propellant weights less than 113.5g, and a total impulse of less than 320Ns.

A single motor with these dimensions requires certification to obtain, but a cluster or stages totalling less than those dimensions not only are considered to be within the range of 'Model Rockets' but do not require a waiver. You could use as much as 125g of propellant, and less than 320Ns, and it is still considered to be a 'Model Rocket' according to the NAR safety code & FAA regulations.
 

Stymye

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that was me , and I was just making an observation
NFPA 1122 and 1127 define a "high power" rocket
A rocket is considered a "high power rocket" if at least one of the following is true:

1)It contains any motor with more than 160 Newton-Seconds of total impulse (a full G).

it than lists the other rules you have already mentioned

so I guess high power can still be a model rocket
 

Missileman

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Also in addition to what Stymye said.
Any motor or combination of motors exceeding 80ns of average thrust is considered High Power.
The 160ns and 80ns rules are from NFPA1127
The G80 you mentioned is a High Power rocket motor because it has 80ns average thrust.
I know it is splitting hairs.
Can you buy these motors without cert? probably, I can buy just about any HPR motor without any questions asked (I have never been asked for proof I am certified or even if I was certified)
Can you fly it as mid power? Probably, Most launches I have attended are pretty lax and not alot of questions have been asked.
About the only problem you are likely to encounter are with any local authority that may ask questions or if your rocket crashes causing property damage or injury.
 

Rubr_Duky

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I suppose not being a TRA or NAR member, I'd have trouble if any rocket crashed and caused damage.

That's why I'm going to do it out in the middle of nowhere, and the only people that will be there is my launch party who understands the risks.
 

shreadvector

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A G80 IS a Model Rocket Motor.

A G81 would NOT be a Model Rocket Motor.

An F101 is NOT a Model Rocket Motor.

Up to an including 80 newtons of average thrust is Model Rocket.

Anything over 80 newtons of average thrust exceeds the definition of Model Rocket motor.

Again, this is NFPA and CPSC related, and the FAA has different definitions. Exceeding any one of the various characterisitcs defined for a Model Rocket or a Model Rocket Motor will move you beyond that classification.

Originally posted by missileman
Also in addition to what Stymye said.
Any motor or combination of motors exceeding 80ns of average thrust is considered High Power.
The 160ns and 80ns rules are from NFPA1127
The G80 you mentioned is a High Power rocket motor because it has 80ns average thrust.
I know it is splitting hairs.
Can you buy these motors without cert? probably, I can buy just about any HPR motor without any questions asked (I have never been asked for proof I am certified or even if I was certified)
Can you fly it as mid power? Probably, Most launches I have attended are pretty lax and not alot of questions have been asked.
About the only problem you are likely to encounter are with any local authority that may ask questions or if your rocket crashes causing property damage or injury.
 

shockwaveriderz

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exactly and precisely G101/104 motors are not model rocket motors......ANY rocket motor like the G33(?) that has more than 62.5g propellant is not a model rocket motor....if you fly a model rocket with an H motor its not amodel rocket its a high power rocket.... If you fly a model rocket ( weight <=16 oz total weight) and total propellant > 113 g then its not a model rocket. The NAR allows you to fly model rockets with engines no more than 160NS total per rocket motor(and less than 62.5 g) or clusters or staged G model rockets with up to 320NS in power(with 113g total propellant weight)......

In other words, if you stick an H motor in a 16oz total weight(with the H engine weight) its a HPR and a Waiver is required... There are a number of H motors that have less than 113 g of propellant but still have more than 160 NS of power......they are still HPR rocket motors due to their total impulse....

Model rockets are completely exempt from ANY FAA waiver requirements UNless the model rockets in question are being flown in such a way or place that it might cause an accident or damage.....
 

DynaSoar

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There are too many rules that are too different in too many different places. Some of them seem to disagree on certain points. "It depends" is acceptable in rocket science. It is not acceptable when trying to figure out which rules apply or to follow.

I'd like to see them collated into a single list.
 

Rubr_Duky

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well, this was a can of worms for my first thread, eh?

:D
RD
 

shreadvector

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It has been collated. I don;t remember where and I don't have time to look right now (work, work, work...).

It really is pretty simple. Exceed any limit for "Model Rocket" as defined by an agency and you are no longer a "Model Rocket" in the eyes of that agency.

Originally posted by DynaSoar
There are too many rules that are too different in too many different places. Some of them seem to disagree on certain points. "It depends" is acceptable in rocket science. It is not acceptable when trying to figure out which rules apply or to follow.

I'd like to see them collated into a single list.
 

bobkrech

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The various rules and regulations on rocketry are not that complicated to understand, but you do have to read them. Different rules apply for different agencies. Do not read any more or less into a regulation than what is stated in the regulation.

The only federal government agency that regulates FLIGHT in US airspace is the FAA. The FAA recognizes 3 classes of amateur rockets: model rockets: large model rockets; and high power rockets.

The FAA definition of a model rocket is: 1.) total weight 1 pound or less; and 2.) total propellant weight 113 grams or less. PERIOD!

These model rockets are exempt from any FAA notification or authorization requirements provided they are flown in a safe manner. The FAA does not care if the propellant is contained within 1 or more motors nor do they care about the total impulse or average thrust, or the altitude, and yes, an H-impulse motor with not more than 113 gm of propellant in a rocket weighting less than 1 pound is considered a model rocket under FAA regulations!

If a rocket weight more than 1 pound but not more than 1500 grams and contains more than 113 grams of propellant but not more than 125 grams of propellant, it is classified as a large model rocket by the FAA. The flight of a large model rocket require a NOTIFICATION to the nearest FAA control center not less than 24 hours nor more tha 48 hours before the launch. Air facilities within 5 nm must also be notified. This is not a waiver request - it is a notification - you do not need the FAA's permission to fly a large model rocket, but you must comply with the FAA rules for large model rocket notifications and operations.

Any rocket weighing more than 1500 grams or with more than 125 grams of propellant is a high power rocket according to the FAA regulations and requires a formal written waiver (permit) to fly in controlled airspace (which is most of the US). A 4 pound rocket with 2 G80s is a high power rocket by FAA regulations as is a 15 ounce rocket with 130 gm of propellant.

That's all there is as far as the FAA is concerned unless you get to the really big stuff, or your total burn time is > 15 seconds, or the sectional density of your rocket exceeds 12 psi.

Other federal, state, and local agencies regulate the sale and possession of the engines which is totally independent of the flight rules.

The sale and possession of rocket motors is controlled by the CPSC and the BATFE. The CPSC regulations prohibits the sale of high power and reloadable motors to anyone under 18, and their definition of high power is any motor with greater than 62.5 gm propellant, and/or 80 NS impulse and/or 80 N average thrust. The BATFE limits the sale and possession of Class B explosives to holders of a Low Explosives Users Permit.

State regulations may further restrict the possession of rocket motors. Some states have adopted NFPA 1122 model rocket and NFPA 1127 high power rocket codes into their laws. The NFPA model rocket motor definition by these codes is: 1.) maximum 62.5 gm propellant; 160 NS impulse: and 80 N average thrust.

If you fly at an event sponsored by either NAR or Tripoli, you must abide by their safety rules (basically NFPA 1122 and 1127). You must use only certified engines (unless Tripoli EX), and if you fly high power you must meet their certification standards.

If you fly by yourself, you do not have to meet NAR or Tripoli certification requirements, and may fly any motors that you are legally entitled to possess, provided you follow the FAA rules and regulations.

Bob Krech
 

Rubr_Duky

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I'm winded from reading it, but that is the most concise way of saying "no" I've ever heard.

Thanks Bob.

:D
RD
 

shreadvector

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N.F.P.A. 1122, not 1121 for Model Rockets. There is also another one for manufacturing the motors. That's N.F.P.A. 1125.

Excellent summary!

Originally posted by bobkrech
The various rules and regulations on rocketry are not that complicated to understand, but you do have to read them. Different rules apply for different agencies. Do not read any more or less into a regulation than what is stated in the regulation.

The only federal government agency that regulates FLIGHT in US airspace is the FAA. The FAA recognizes 3 classes of amateur rockets: model rockets: large model rockets; and high power rockets.

The FAA definition of a model rocket is: 1.) total weight 1 pound or less; and 2.) total propellant weight 113 grams or less. PERIOD!

These model rockets are exempt from any FAA notification or authorization requirements provided they are flown in a safe manner. The FAA does not care if the propellant is contained within 1 or more motors nor do they care about the total impulse or average thrust, or the altitude, and yes, an H-impulse motor with not more than 113 gm of propellant in a rocket weighting less than 1 pound is considered a model rocket under FAA regulations!

If a rocket weight more than 1 pound but not more than 1500 grams and contains more than 113 grams of propellant but not more than 125 grams of propellant, it is classified as a large model rocket by the FAA. The flight of a large model rocket require a NOTIFICATION to the nearest FAA control center not less than 24 hours nor more tha 48 hours before the launch. Air facilities within 5 nm must also be notified. This is not a waiver request - it is a notification - you do not need the FAA's permission to fly a large model rocket, but you must comply with the FAA rules for large model rocket notifications and operations.

Any rocket weighing more than 1500 grams or with more than 125 grams of propellant is a high power rocket according to the FAA regulations and requires a formal written waiver (permit) to fly in controlled airspace (which is most of the US). A 4 pound rocket with 2 G80s is a high power rocket by FAA regulations as is a 15 ounce rocket with 130 gm of propellant.

That's all there is as far as the FAA is concerned unless you get to the really big stuff, or your total burn time is > 15 seconds, or the sectional density of your rocket exceeds 12 psi.

Other federal, state, and local agencies regulate the sale and possession of the engines which is totally independent of the flight rules.

The sale and possession of rocket motors is controlled by the CPSC and the BATFE. The CPSC regulations prohibits the sale of high power and reloadable motors to anyone under 18, and their definition of high power is any motor with greater than 62.5 gm propellant, and/or 80 NS impulse and/or 80 N average thrust. The BATFE limits the sale and possession of Class B explosives to holders of a Low Explosives Users Permit.

State regulations may further restrict the possession of rocket motors. Some states have adopted NFPA 1121 model rocket and NFPA 1127 high power rocket codes into their laws. The NFPA model rocket motor definition by these codes is: 1.) maximum 62.5 gm propellant; 160 NS impulse: and 80 N average thrust.

If you fly at an event sponsored by either NAR or Tripoli, you must abide by their safety rules (basically NFPA 1121 and 1127). You must use only certified engines (unless Tripoli EX), and if you fly high power you must meet their certification standards.

If you fly by yourself, you do not have to meet NAR or Tripoli certification requirements, and may fly any motors that you are legally entitled to possess, provided you follow the FAA rules and regulations.

Bob Krech
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by shreadvector
N.F.P.A. 1122, not 1121 for Model Rockets. There is also another one for manufacturing the motors. That's N.F.P.A. 1125.

Excellent summary!
Yes, it is. Thanks. Bob.

I think there's a few other details that could use the same treatment, but this covers things nicely.

The problem to me is not what "some" agency says about a certain point, but what all applicable agencies say in response to that particular point.

Frinstance, isn't there some things applying to 113g of propellant and another to 125g?

What I also find more trouble than necessary is the FAA's definitions sometimes using "less than" and others using "more than".

If you run across that compiled list you mentioned, please let me know. I saw onew site that had some of these listed, but it wasn't comprehensive.
 

SwingWing

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Originally posted by jerryb
THANKS for the info... if I'm reading this correct... NO flights between sunset and sunrise.... hmmm... guess that scraps the night launches....
Night launches require a waiver. Not totally scrapped, but a bit more complicated. Best done in club situations.
 

Micromeister

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Originally posted by DynaSoar
There are too many rules that are too different in too many different places. Some of them seem to disagree on certain points. "It depends" is acceptable in rocket science. It is not acceptable when trying to figure out which rules apply or to follow.

I'd like to see them collated into a single list.
Good grief Dyna:
Shockie just gave you EXACTLY what the FAA specifies. FAR101 is like most sets of guideline rules covering a multitude of vehicles types and conditions. They cannot cover every aspect and condition so some interpretation is almost always required:(
That being said, Model rockets under 454g and 113g of propellant ARE experssly EXEMPT from all FAA Reqs during daylight operaitons.

Night flights of ANY size, weight or motor currently require a full Waiver from the sunset/sunraise prohibition. This night flight restriction is currently being reviewed by FAA HQ in Washington. How do I know this? I'm currently working with the FAA on the specifics to extend our daytime exemption to include Night operaitons with some additional vehicle illumination and safety provisions. This is a long and SLOOOOW process. I don't see any "written" change coming for at least a couple years. but we're working on it:)
 

shockwaveriderz

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Originally posted by bobkrech

These model rockets are exempt from any FAA notification or authorization requirements provided they are flown in a safe manner. The FAA does not care if the propellant is contained within 1 or more motors nor do they care about the total impulse or average thrust, or the altitude, and yes, an H-impulse motor with not more than 113 gm of propellant in a rocket weighting less than 1 pound is considered a model rocket under FAA regulations!

This is why I advocate that the NAR/TRA finally get around to updating the various NFPA rules to coincide with the FAA requirements. For example in my world The FAA limit would not B 113-125 it would be a simple 125g.. ie any combination of engine(s) that contain 125g or less of total or combines propellant mass would be considered a model rocket. This means of course that low H size motors then would become model rocket motors, NOT HPR motors. SO the current L1 certification would start at least at the I level. I have advoctared that the NAR/TRA define a Large Model Rocket motor as a rocket motor that is > 62.5 g and <= 125 g total propellant weight... These LMR motors would only be able to be sold to those 18 yrs old and above BUT no certification would be required. This would satisfy the CSPC vis a vis the G motor limit for those < 18 as is now... and since these motors are expressely designed to be sold only to adults, the CSPC would have No input as to their sales or availabilty...


The point is legally per the FAA you can currently launch model rocket with low H power motyors.....but if you happen to be a NAR/TRA member you can't do this as you are actually flying a HPR model due to the NAR/TRA requirements that you obey the NFPA codes and the Safety Codes ( NFPA 1127 Code for HPR IS the Safety Code for the TRA and the NAR HPSC is a derivative from that same code...)... as the NAR says, obey all local,state and federal laws......


what do you people think about my proposals?
Define in the NFPA codes a Large Model Rocket motor => 62.5 and <= 125 g ie low H as Large Model Rocket Motors....in other words define a completely new class of Model Rocket motor for adults only? Making the Certs start at I instead of H? Require testing at the new L1 level instead of waiting to test at the L2 level?


Just looking for possible pros and cons on these issues from other people....
 

Micromeister

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Nope! NFPA-1122 defines model rocketry, not to mention our buddies at DOT and BATF are pretty stuck on the 62.5gram motor situation. NFPA-1127 was written specifically to address the HPR situation.
Large model rocket (LMR) and High power rockets (HPR) have set and distinct differences which should remain. 454g /113 model rocket, 455-1500g/125g large model rockets, everything above 1500/125g is HPR.
There is very little wiggle room in these designations, I can recall only two G motors that fail the 62.5g limit and most LMR folks rarely exceed H anyway. Personally I only fly Clustered BP LMR's to the 125g limit (5- D12's) Which is more than enough power for this side of the Mississippi;)
We keep trying to mess with these various government agencies who really do not understand rocketry as a whole. Dealing with at least two of these fine bodies has given me a fondness for leaving well enough alone....ever time we start messing with one of these agencies, it comes back to bit us hard in the butt.

By the way WE (model rocketry) only have a seat on the NFPA board as a courtesy, the Fire protection folks write the rules with suggestions and input from our Rep. but THEY decide what goes into the finial document. I say this to remind folks WE (model rocketry) are a VERY small part of what the various agencies are looking at. Like that annoying little nat flying around your ears at the range, we too can become a little nuisance that may just get a swift swat.
 
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