Aerotech F44 "Econo-Max" 24mm x 70mm ???

[Winston]

Since I got a PM and obviously folks have not read all the words in this PDF, I suggest you stop, take several minutes to calm down and take deep breaths and meditate or do whatever you need to do, then open the document, print it if necessary, and read all of the words in the order they are written and do not skip any of the words.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

All rocket motors with pyrotechnic propellant and pyrogen tipped igniters are "HAZMAT" items, but some can be shipped by USPS by following the procedures explained in the PDF.

The igniters included with motors are covered by the same rules, and are part of the motor system. Replacement igniters are also covered, but igniters made by another company that does not make motors and does not include igntiers with those motors are not considered part of the motor system or replacement parts.

Estes pyrogen igniter packs can be shipped just like their 30 gram or less propellant motors, but that means strictly following the USPS regulations with lots of markings and paperwork.

Estes Starters have no pyrogen and can be mailed in an unmarked envelope or package with no HAZMAT restrictions of any kind.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

I've read the PDF a long time ago, but I checked it again and I see no reference in it specific to igniters. That's why I didn't relate motors and igniters, but since they both conatin hazardous materials, just less in the case of the igniters, I see what you're taking about. And the development of pyrogen free igniters allows shipping without the “Toy Propellant Devices, Handle With Care” and “Surface Mail Only” marking, also allowing something other than ground shipment. I clearly see the advantage in that.

 

[shreadvector]

You need to very, very slowly read it again. The word "igniters" is not important. The PDF tells you in the first few words what you need to know.

The first thing that matters is if the item has pyrotechnic materials.

Motors and pyrogen tipped igniters have pyrotechnic materials.

I've read the PDF a long time ago, but I checked it again and I see no reference in it specific to igniters.

 

[Winston]

You need to very, very slowly read it again. The word "igniters" is not important. The PDF tells you in the first few words what you need to know.

The first thing that matters is if the item has pyrotechnic materials.

Motors and pyrogen tipped igniters have pyrotechnic materials.

See my edit above, made while you created your post. Everything now makes sense including the effort by Eetes to develop a pyrogen-free ignitor.

 

[samb]

New here, but wanted to reply to the thread. I bought 4 of the F44's from Tower a few weeks ago and launched two of them this past weekend in the night fury (black rocket) and Meatlug (the 3" bodied large rocket). They go up hot and fast... but Rocksim altitudes and my own observations show them not that much off of the AT E50. I put an order in for the G74s as well, but those have not been delivered yet.
For the F44's, no Hazmat fee. All rockets in the photos
View attachment 175651

Welcome, and excellent first post ! Got this thread back to the original new motor discussion. Do you fly mostly scratch builds ?

 

[Winston]

"And the development of pyrogen free igniters allows shipping without the “Toy Propellant Devices, Handle With Care” and “Surface Mail Only” marking, also allowing something other than ground shipment. I clearly see the advantage in that."

By which I meant, the shipment of igniters by themselves with no motors.

 

[Winston]

New here, but wanted to reply to the thread. I bought 4 of the F44's from Tower a few weeks ago and launched two of them this past weekend in the night fury (black rocket) and Meatlug (the 3" bodied large rocket). They go up hot and fast... but Rocksim altitudes and my own observations show them not that much off of the AT E50. I put an order in for the G74s as well, but those have not been delivered yet.
For the F44's, no Hazmat fee. All rockets in the photos
View attachment 175651

The F44 is barely an "F" and the E50 is very nearly an "F" based upon their total impulse, so they should sim and fly nearly the same.

 

[shreadvector]

yes, and that is why Estes changed the name of the product (and the UPC) to "Starter".


Shipping "Estes Solar Starters" is easy.

Shipping "Estes Solar Igniters" or "Estes Sonic Igniters" is not so easy.

Other companies may call their products igniters or starters or initiators. If they have a pyrogen, then they are not easy to ship.

And as for the E50, have they made that motor in the last 10 or 20 years? It was actually certified as an F class motor based upon the total impulse.
EDIT: I see it was decertified a long, long time ago....
https://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html


The Economax F44 is a clever product that will (hopefully) sell very, very well. Yes, it is barely an F, but it does have a decent amount more total impulse than the E20 which is also sold in twin retail packs designed to be hung and sold next to Estes or Quest kits that can easily accept and use them.

"And the development of pyrogen free igniters allows shipping without the “Toy Propellant Devices, Handle With Care” and “Surface Mail Only” marking, also allowing something other than ground shipment. I clearly see the advantage in that."

By which I meant, the shipment of igniters by themselves with no motors.

 

[Winston]

yes, and that is why Estes changed the name of the product (and the UPC) to "Starter".


Shipping "Estes Solar Starters" is easy.

Shipping "Estes Solar Igniters" or "Estes Sonic Igniters" is not so easy.

Other companies may call their products igniters or starters or initiators. If they have a pyrogen, then they are not easy to ship.

It all becomes clear...

And as for the E50, have they made that motor in the last 10 or 20 years? It was actually certified as an F class motor based upon the total impulse. EDIT: I see it was decertified a long, long time ago....
https://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html

I had to look it up as I don't have the data sheet for it among my files. I found it at EMRR and the total impulse figure (over 41 N-s) should have made it an F, so I assumed the data there was in error and that the average of the batch actually tested for certification was just below 40. Looks like it was an F incorrectly sold as an E.

The Economax F44 is a clever product that will (hopefully) sell very, very well. Yes, it is barely an F, but it does have a decent amount more total impulse than the E20 which is also sold in twin retail packs designed to be hung and sold next to Estes or Quest kits that can easily accept and use them.

I like and use the E20 a lot and will definitely find the F44s useful and will buy many as long as there aren't any hazmat shipping fees (I buy HPR motors locally). I would like a 6 second delay option available, though, instead of just 4 and 8.

 

[swatkat]

SAMB: I build all my own stunts.... I mean rockets. These were for the kids. I used to be well into it back in the 90's and built a lot of the original LOC rockets, then had other interests and am now returning and using the kids as an excuse, hence the How to Train Your Dragon themed rockets for this last month. I think the "kids" now have 12 total rockets, half of them mid-power.

 

[swatkat]

It's been a while since I was last involved with rocketry, the E50 was my go-to high impulse mid-power when I left off. I also remember an E28-8 from AT, but I don't see that one anywhere on the charts... hmm.

yes, and that is why Estes changed the name of the product (and the UPC) to "Starter".


Shipping "Estes Solar Starters" is easy.

Shipping "Estes Solar Igniters" or "Estes Sonic Igniters" is not so easy.

Other companies may call their products igniters or starters or initiators. If they have a pyrogen, then they are not easy to ship.

And as for the E50, have they made that motor in the last 10 or 20 years? It was actually certified as an F class motor based upon the total impulse.
EDIT: I see it was decertified a long, long time ago....
https://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html


The Economax F44 is a clever product that will (hopefully) sell very, very well. Yes, it is barely an F, but it does have a decent amount more total impulse than the E20 which is also sold in twin retail packs designed to be hung and sold next to Estes or Quest kits that can easily accept and use them.

 

[Winston]

It all becomes clear...

I need to add, in my final off-topic comment about it in this thread (thank goodness, right?), that while I now understand the nuances of this topic, I still don't agree with it and feel that it is an example of excessive regulation for a non-existent problem while much more hazardous items that I've pointed out in other threads don't require hazmat handling simply because of the political power of their constituencies and, yet, the world hasn't ended.

One more example of the microscopic hazard of rocketry hazmat components compared to other far more commonly used and far more, in this case, impact sensitive products. While these DO legally require hazmat shipping fees, consider how many millions if not billions have been shipped illegally like those linked to below with apparently no accident serious enough to cause a crackdown. I thought to look for these because my brother had a job in a grocery store while in high school and once accidentally dropped an entire shipping box full of these on one of its corners. It began to smolder, and he was lucky enough to be right next to a stockroom exit door to quickly throw it outside just before it violently burst into flame:

Diamond Strike Anywhere Matches - 10 boxes of 32 ($4.99 + Free Shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ASRGX2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Diamond GreenLightTM Kitchen Matches - 3 Pack - 300 Matches per Pack x 3 = 900 Match - Strike anywhere ($5.90 + $3.95 shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004B5KAF0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Diamond Strike Anywhere "Greenlight" Matches 300 Ct ($6.50 + Free Shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005Y2J05A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[swatkat]

Ahhh, found the E28-8 on that link you posted above. 1998... has it really been that long? https://www.nar.org/SandT/releases/r52.html

 

[TopRamen]

I need to add, in my final off-topic comment about it in this thread (thank goodness, right?), that while I now understand the nuances of this topic, I still don't agree with it and feel that it is an example of excessive regulation for a non-existent problem while much more hazardous items that I've pointed out in other threads don't require hazmat handling simply because of the political power of their constituencies and, yet, the world hasn't ended.

One more example of the microscopic hazard of rocketry hazmat components compared to other far more commonly used and far more, in this case, impact sensitive products. While these DO legally require hazmat shipping fees, consider how many millions if not billions have been shipped illegally like those linked to below with apparently no accident serious enough to cause a crackdown. I thought to look for these because my brother had a job in a grocery store while in high school and once accidentally dropped an entire shipping box full of these on one of its corners. It began to smolder, and he was lucky enough to be right next to a stockroom exit door to quickly throw it outside just before it violently burst into flame:

Diamond Strike Anywhere Matches - 10 boxes of 32 ($4.99 + Free Shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ASRGX2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Diamond GreenLightTM Kitchen Matches - 3 Pack - 300 Matches per Pack x 3 = 900 Match - Strike anywhere ($5.90 + $3.95 shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004B5KAF0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Diamond Strike Anywhere "Greenlight" Matches 300 Ct ($6.50 + Free Shipping)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005Y2J05A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Those green ones are supposedly garbage. I buy the red Diamond Brand Strike Anywhere Matches at ACE Hardware.
Just throwing that out there incase anyone is thinking about ordering those.

 

[samb]

SAMB: I build all my own stunts.... I mean rockets. These were for the kids. I used to be well into it back in the 90's and built a lot of the original LOC rockets, then had other interests and am now returning and using the kids as an excuse, hence the How to Train Your Dragon themed rockets for this last month. I think the "kids" now have 12 total rockets, half of them mid-power.

Very good. My girls are "29 y.o. and holding" now so I have to use other peoples kids as my excuse: "Honey, got another cub scout launch this Saturday , gotta show'um the new F44 !"

 

[pyrobob]

SAMB: I build all my own stunts.... I mean rockets. These were for the kids. I used to be well into it back in the 90's and built a lot of the original LOC rockets, then had other interests and am now returning and using the kids as an excuse, hence the How to Train Your Dragon themed rockets for this last month. I think the "kids" now have 12 total rockets, half of them mid-power.

I can related. My "kids" are totally into rocketry and therefore I must follow their lead.............

 

[pyrobob]

Very good. My girls are "29 y.o. and holding" now so I have to use other peoples kids as my excuse: "Honey, got another cub scout launch this Saturday , gotta show'um the new F44 !"

I'm taking notes.........

 

[samb]

I'm taking notes.........

She let me play my games, God bless her !

 

[pyrobob]

She let me play my games, God bless her !

Indeed. I met my now wife in college. She was there for some static testing of hybrids and a solid actually. It's safe to say she knew what she was getting into..........

 

[Winston]

I emailed Hobbylinc on 25 Jun to tell them that their listed hazmat fee requirement for the Econo-max F44s is in error, gave them a link to Tower Hobby's listing for the item that doesn't mention hazmat, and told them to get with Aerotech for confirmation. Just checked and the F44s on Hobbylinc no longer have the hazmat shipping notice, only the proper 3rd Class Ground one.

 

[swatkat]

Second flight today on the F44's. I really wish that I'd picked up the 4 second delay version instead of the 8 second. Rocksim said that 5.39 was the ideal delay for my large rocket, but I'm thinking 4 is more like it. I do have one comment, these things are REALLY Loud. we've launched a steady stream of AT E's from this site and never had anyone take notice. A concerned neighbor from 1/4 mile away came by today. She ended up staying for the next launch and liked it, but these are loud and fast.
Non-ripstop nylon chute ripped on the long fall from apogee to deploy and rocket popped a fin on impact on this launch... but nothing that can't be repaired. With the right rocket though, these engines would be epic. Friend has a 13" all carbon fiber rocket we'll try on the next launch. Should be good for 5k feet and a transonic flight.

 

[shreadvector]

We need an F44-6, for average models and also for TARC. The F44-4 has way to short a delay time for TARC or for average models and the F44-8 has way, WAY too long a delay time for TARC or average models.

The F44-4 is perfect for "heavy" model rockets.

The F44-8 is perfect for very light model rockets (but they will need strong fins that are attached well).

 

[Winston]

We need an F44-6, for average models and also for TARC. The F44-4 has way to short a delay time for TARC or for average models and the F44-8 has way, WAY too long a delay time for TARC or average models.

The F44-4 is perfect for "heavy" model rockets.

The F44-8 is perfect for very light model rockets (but they will need strong fins that are attached well).

I agree. I asked Aerotech why there wasn't an F44-6 available, a delay I'd prefer for most of my stuff, and they said something about their motors all being hand made which I did not get the relevance of. They said they'd make them in six second delays if there was a demand, so please email them and ask for that.

Anyone had any CATO issues with the F44? At the latest NARAM I heard someone say they had one (or was it two) CATO which led to give their other F44s away to club members willing to take the risk.

 

[chadrog]

I agree. I asked Aerotech why there wasn't an F44-6 available, a delay I'd prefer for most of my stuff, and they said something about their motors all being hand made which I did not get the relevance of. They said they'd make them in six second delays if there was a demand, so please email them and ask for that.

Anyone had any CATO issues with the F44? At the latest NARAM I heard someone say they had one (or was it two) CATO which led to give their other F44s away to club members willing to take the risk.

Saw one blow the forward end off under thrust last Saturday, wasn't pretty. Maybe Paul will chime in with more details. His old Arapahoe was still smoldering ten minutes after the flight.

 

[Initiator001]

I flew an AeroTech F44-8W in my Quest Mean Green model at NARAM-56.

Holy cow did that thing move!

Sadly, the wind carried it far away past the canyon never to be seen again.

 

[Daddyisabar]

I bought a pack from Hobbylinc and put one in my TLP Rapier. Kaboom at launch. Blew by the delay and lit the ejection charge. Nose cone and chute slowed the rocket just off the rod as the motor lost pressure. Gave a good TLP zipper then the trifold mount gave way, The rocket continued end over end and hit the grass just off the range. Pad Fuhrer was very unhappy. Then I gave the remaining motor to a friend with a huge warning. He tried it at NARAM in his D Region Tomahawk and Kaboom! This one blew off the front plastic closure and fried the rocket. I saw some other SU F44s work just fine. This is my first and last purchase of the new style AT SU motors. Guess I am just unlucky with AT SU motors as this is not the first time I have seen this happen. Use at your own risk or stick to the reloads.

 

[swatkat]

Hmmm, I've had three successful launches on the F44-8W's from Tower Hobby. I've got three motors left, so hopefully the odds are with me. The 8 second delay though is a little long for the rockets I'd like to use them with. And I'm nervous about putting them in my lighter rockets. Rocksim says trans-sonic flight and 4k+ feet.

 

[shreadvector]

You used the igniter that the twin pack came with, correct? (Just eliminating a variable...)

I bought a pack from Hobbylinc and put one in my TLP Rapier. Kaboom at launch. Blew by the delay and lit the ejection charge. Nose cone and chute slowed the rocket just off the rod as the motor lost pressure. Gave a good TLP zipper then the trifold mount gave way, The rocket continued end over end and hit the grass just off the range. Pad Fuhrer was very unhappy. Then I gave the remaining motor to a friend with a huge warning. He tried it at NARAM in his D Region Tomahawk and Kaboom! This one blew off the front plastic closure and fried the rocket. I saw some other SU F44s work just fine. This is my first and last purchase of the new style AT SU motors. Guess I am just unlucky with AT SU motors as this is not the first time I have seen this happen. Use at your own risk or stick to the reloads.

 

[dshmel]

... At the latest NARAM I heard someone say they had one (or was it two) CATO which led to give their other F44s away to club members willing to take the risk.

I had one of the new AT DMS G80's CATO (in addition to a CTI H410 described in another thread). Balsa Machining took care of the G80, I am working with CTI and Wildman on the H410.

Back to ECONOMAX - I did have a couple of G74-9's (purchased from Hobbylinc) that would NOT light. I tried the igniters that came with the motors to no avail. I tried 3 other igniters of my own making that I am confident would light a stubborn 38mm reload. Still nada. I have not yet reached out to Hobbylinc on the G74's.

 

[Daddyisabar]

You used the igniter that the twin pack came with, correct? (Just eliminating a variable...)

Yes. Both times the supplied igniter worked fine.

 

[billspad]

Back to ECONOMAX - I did have a couple of G74-9's (purchased from Hobbylinc) that would NOT light. I tried the igniters that came with the motors to no avail. I tried 3 other igniters of my own making that I am confident would light a stubborn 38mm reload. Still nada. I have not yet reached out to Hobbylinc on the G74's.

I pushed the button on several of your attempts. When we tested these motors at S & T they lit quickly every time. The only thing that's different is 6 months and a few thousand feet of altitude. Puzzling.