mh9162013
Well-Known Member
I didn't say they were dishonest. I said they could have been more honest; there's a big difference there.
Estes going to MAP = MSRP for all online sellers 4/1?
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If we are in this discussion because of Estes prices going up, does that really push you to composites? Maybe the prices become closer but do composite motors come with suitable igniters? I have a lot of Aerotech motors that did not come with suitable igniters so I have no way of launching them until I pony up quite a bit for new igniters. And I just remembered I bought a couple of Aerotech SU from a guy at the club who was getting out of rocketry, I didn't notice if they came with suitable igniters.
I think this strikes at the heart of the bellyaching in this thread. We’re coming to terms with the fact that something we used to be able to count on as always available at a good price is now going to be either a) something we get less of, or b) something that is only available occasionally when on sale.Regardless of the outcome of Estepocalypse (nice one!) the outcome for me will be the same - the number of kits and motors will be adjusted to fit my wallet
And we’re doing it in proper online fashion, by complaining very loudly about how unfair it is, and swearing off things we know we’ll buy again when the dust settles.
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QJets come with suitable igniters, and they’re the best comparison to Estes BP engines.
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I would totally do that if they stocked D12-7 and E12-8. But they don't, so I get -0, B6-6 and C6-7 there.
All the AT motors and reloads come with an igniter. They DON'T come with any spares.
So the usual scenario is: you have a misfire, hurriedly "borrow" one from another motor/reload, have a good flight, forget you stole the igniter, a while later go another launch, complain about missing igniter ... REPEAT... Eventually you have a bunch of motors without igniters...
By saying what? We're going to send you a bunch of crap you won't think is worth the price? I don't think they realistically could have been. Mystery boxes are often a way to get rid of old stock; this particular mystery box sale was no exception.
When I've had failures, Aerotech has warrantied them with replacements plus spares. Which were good to have, because they had a bad run of igniters for a while. Recent ones seem better, and treating them very gingerly, it's been a while since I've had one fail.
Quest motors in the Q-pick era have worked for me so far, but the sample size has only been a handful of motors, I forget how few, but maybe only three or five so far. I need to get flying more again.
Right there with you, except I used to have one bird heavy enough to fly on the D12-5.
My 7x18 cluster has emptied multiple Hobby Lobbies of C6-7s multiple times
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At $21 plus tax per button press, I hope it's worth it. Remind me what the rocket is?
mh9162013
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Estes could have done the following differently with their mystery box:
1. They said the value was based on a retail price. Estes apparently meant the retail price on their website. In practice, Estes.com's prices aren't retail, they're MSRP. I know you disagree, but when someone asks how much a particular Estes rocket costs, most people are going to respond with prices they will typically see (Amazon, AC Supply, etc.), not what Estes is asking on its own website. I know that may not technnically be what the definition of "retail" is, but we're explaining people's expectations and why they were what they were, not what hornbook law is.
2. Estes didn't have to include two very similar products (like starter sets) in the same box.
3. Estes wasn't very clear about the type of rockets you might get in the mystery box. If I recall correctly, the website was set up so that you thought you had a reasonable chance of getting kits other than the same 3 or 4 start sets. But in reality, basically the bulk (value-wise) was 1 or more starter set(s).
4. There was talk that some of what you got in the mystery box wasn't complete, ie there were missing components/parts.
Given the above, I think it's understandable people were annoyed with their mystery boxes. Again, I'm not saying Estes lied or did anything unlawful, but I do think Estes could have handled the mystery box promotion better.
All that being said, I rarely buy mystery boxes because I'm always of the assumption that the person/company selling it will try to trick me. If I buy a mystery box, it's for the thrill, not what's inside.
That's what came to my mind. I would think that a vendor of Estes rocket stuff can't advertise the "real" price of the item if it is lower than MSRP, but the vendor can offer the lower price once you put the item into your shopping cart. That is true for other industries, although I have not had to do "add the item to your cart to see our great low price" in a while.
I don't recall seeing those somewhat Ron Popeil-ish come ons like, "Our Prices are Too Low to Advertise! Click here to see your low price!" ads in while.
1. It would make no sense for "retail" to mean anything other than the price on Estes' website. Any misunderstanding on that point is 100% on the buyer.
2. Sure, but any expectation about this is again 100% on the buyer, especially given your #3.
3. They were intentionally not clear - it was a mystery box!
4. I'm sure Estes sent missing parts to those that asked; they do that for every other kit you buy from them.
I totally agree they "could have handled it better," and also to your reason you don't buy mystery boxes. It's like gambling; ultimately the house wins. That's also why I don't have much sympathy for people who were disappointed with their purchases.
It's the one in my avatar (photo courtway of Harry). It was started but never finished by a late DARS member named Bob Wilson I never had the pleasure of meeting. It had collected a lot of hanger rash before I adopted it from the DARS stash, so I significantly rebuilt it in the process of finishing it and bringing it to flight.
Currently in pieces from a bad packing job on its last flight kept the laundry stuck. Even using a heavy BT-70 variant for which I've been unable to find an exact dimensional match, it telescoped enough that I had to cut the tube into multiple segments to rejoin. Fortunately I had one spare tube with the rocket. Between shrouding the originally exposed motor tubes when I finished it and now rebuilding the body, the spare tube will be expended.
Will be rebuilt with a layer or two of glass and likely with the tubes vented so it can fly with a nice, predictable apogee charge.
Originally taken on to gain experience clustering, it's the rocket that taught me how much stupid fun flying clusters is. Totally worth the cost of motors.
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Yeah, I remember looking at that and thinking it was almost certain to be a bunch of junk I probably wouldn't want sitting around even if it was free. And then they sent me a Leaper that I didn't want sitting around even if it was free. But at least it was free.
On point 4, they even sent me a replacement nose cone when I just asked hypothetically would it be possible to obtain one without buying a whole new kit. It was just a hypothetical - I don't actually have the ARF it's a replacement for. So now I kinda feel obliged to put it on the front of one of their tubes and make some kind of fins so I can launch it.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Hmm? Suitable igniters?
I've used a number of Aerotech motors (F42T-4's, F52-5's, E20-4's) and the ignitors that came with them worked just fine. That being said, I use a Go-Box powered by a full size 12V car battery.
Which Aerotech motors are you referring too?
Re. mystery boxes, they're either a pleasant surprise that builds reputation or a rude disappointment that erodes reputation. I steer clear of them, but seeing what others got from that Estes mystery box, it seemed like a slap in the face to their fans who'd subscribed to their mailing list and unlikely to benefit their corporate goodwill. Boneheaded fumble in my book. Even if they don't need their biggest fans (as the MAP move indicates), it seems poorly judged to insult and exploit them.
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Gee... the thread is wandering... how'd that happen??? 
Point is we (well I) vote with our (my) dollars. If that makes no difference to Estes, who cares? Langford was one of us. Apparently not anymore. It was no skin off his nose if places deep discounted. I am certain he's not such a d-bag as to sell kits wholesale at a loss. Oh wait... rockets need... what... let me think... oh! Motors!!! And we now sell those for $3+ each. And it costs us? Lets bet 50 cents is the answer. And that is shipped.
I used to work at company called Kodak. Long since gone... (for all tense and purposes) but in the day they would stand on the corner and GIVE you a camera, if you promised to buy Kodak film and have the film use Kodak Processing on Kodak Paper. Because they made film and paper for pennies and sold it for dollars.
Lets hope, I guess, Estes does not go the way of Kodak. Tho I wish Quest would make it so. But IIRC Aerotech (aka Quest) makes most of its dough in commercial motors. As does CTI. So again, we are a little backwater that AT (and still CTI? its looking dicy) takes pity on because Gary bless his AP heart(!) is "One of Us". And IIRC he started as "One of Us". And so maybe still is, "One of Us".
PS: This must make TVM ecstatic! He sells good products, but at a decent markup OVER even MSRP (for non TVM products).
Point is we (well I) vote with our (my) dollars. If that makes no difference to Estes, who cares? Langford was one of us. Apparently not anymore. It was no skin off his nose if places deep discounted. I am certain he's not such a d-bag as to sell kits wholesale at a loss. Oh wait... rockets need... what... let me think... oh! Motors!!! And we now sell those for $3+ each. And it costs us? Lets bet 50 cents is the answer. And that is shipped.
I used to work at company called Kodak. Long since gone... (for all tense and purposes) but in the day they would stand on the corner and GIVE you a camera, if you promised to buy Kodak film and have the film use Kodak Processing on Kodak Paper. Because they made film and paper for pennies and sold it for dollars.
Lets hope, I guess, Estes does not go the way of Kodak. Tho I wish Quest would make it so. But IIRC Aerotech (aka Quest) makes most of its dough in commercial motors. As does CTI. So again, we are a little backwater that AT (and still CTI? its looking dicy) takes pity on because Gary bless his AP heart(!) is "One of Us". And IIRC he started as "One of Us". And so maybe still is, "One of Us".
PS: This must make TVM ecstatic! He sells good products, but at a decent markup OVER even MSRP (for non TVM products).
I
Yes, but WHAT a button press! Seven C6’s all (hopefully) lighting at the same. I love clusters, but three at once is the most I have tried.
I cut my Aerotech teeth on the F42T and F67W, and I witnessed a lot of igniters where the pyrogen would flake off if you so much as looked at them wrong. Happily I've not run into that lately.
I said "suitable igniter". In the old days Aerotech engines came with Copperhead igniters and back then nobody accepted them as suitable. Our local vendor gave away his homemade igniters with every engine sold and I never had a failure from them. I have quite a few of the old Copperhead igniters still in their little tubes. The igniters that Aerotech sells right now are about $6 each. If we are complaining about paying $10 each for Estes E12 and talking about switching to an Aerotech E30 instead consider that you have to spend another $6 per motor for an igniter. (But I love flying the E30.)
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I’ll probably start building more ASP, Rocketarium and Semroc kits. As far as BP motors, I mostly fly composites anyway.
I don’t understand this need. AT's igniters have been as reliable as Estes igniters for me.
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Self-inflicted injury, and nobody but you knows you've done it. Besides, it's easily resolved by ordering igniters along with all the other garbage that most of us order from rocketry vendors all the time! Or simply ask your local vendor, if you have one.
Plenty of other places to get more reliable igniters, or just simply 'spares' for significantly less than that! Here's one of them:
https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/wildman-brand-lighters/products/tiny-lighters
https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/wildman-brand-lighters/products/little-uns-sm-lighters
https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/wildman-brand-lighters/products/big-uns-lg-lighters
There are at least 3 other vendors on the web who sell them as well for similar prices. I know of at least 2 other vendors who sell them but have limited web presence, so they're probably either at your field, or can be acquired easily. And don't forget that you can also get the kits to roll your own at home and have exactly what's available commercially for less than $1 each if you're willing to put in the work.
With today's retail environment (especially for rocketry stuff) being significantly online, all you have to do is make 2 or 3 extra clicks the next time you're ordering stuff and you're set for a full flight season.
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True, especially since AT went away from Crapperheads to a standard igniter.
You know, I don't really get all the hate towards the copperhead igniters. They were already on their way out by the time I was getting into HPR, but of the dozen or so older stock motors with copperheads that I flew until they were depleted, the only one that failed to light the motor was one that fell out and burned on the ground because I didn't secure it well enough.
You know I flew old reloads with the supplied Copperheads at the last 2 GRITS launches!
The only Copperhead fail (my fault) I can recall was with my first one. After learning to clean the “hairs” from the edges and to peel the layers rather than use the clip, I don’t think I had another failure. I used them for virtually all LPR/MPR flights. No hate here.
During my first foray into HPR, copperheads were the standard for AT. I had a couple short out. The trick was to deburr the sides with an X-Acto knife and separate the strips and try to keep them insulated on the pad. I went to LDRS 19 in 2000 where Gary and crew were handing out the new AT igniters and they worked beautifully.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
But you are talking about "old days". Has anybody here had issues with the current Aerotech igniters? I've found them to be flawless thus far.
I don't understand all the bashing of Estes in this thread? The way the economy and job market is nowadays I'm just glad they are still in business. I love their BP motors and if the MAP is what they need to do to keep the ship sailing then tip of the hat to them for keeping the ship afloat.
Maybe newer ones were better? I never even heard of deburring the sides of them or peeling them. I just stuck them in and used the piece of tape on each side trick, and they worked fine.
You can see the little “hair” circled in this pic. No big deal, but they could short to the opposite side.
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