Can you build J and higher motors at home without having a Level 1 Certification?

[Ez2cDave]

I just wanted to know if you can build J and higher solid motors at home without Level 1 Certification. Also if there are any federal or state regulations in the California, US that prohibit it.

(1) What previous rocketry experience do you have ?
(2) "Build" - Are you talking about commercially-produced motors or do you want to make your own motors?
(3) Are you aware that no US motor vendor will sell you motors, without proof of certification ?
(4) Why "J motors & higher" and what are you intending to fly these in ?
(5) Are you aware that your post is "highly suspicious" ?

Dave F.

 

[NateB]

Exactly. The OP's question is analogous to someone asking for flight training but stating they have no interest in learning to land. I think we should not be educating people who ask questions like this at all, not even explaining what the applicable laws and regulations are to do things safely and legitimately. This just gives information to help them on their journey to bad outcomes.

I understand your point, but mostly disagree. There's no easy solution to vet people, but gatekeeping information also leads to people turning to less reliable sources. Education is important, especially when safety of concerned.

 

[sl98]

IMO someone asking on their first post ever if they can make J motors without being L1 certified ...

or they are trolling

 

[Ez2cDave]

I understand your point, but mostly disagree. There's no easy solution to vet people, but gatekeeping information also leads to people turning to less reliable sources. Education is important, especially when safety of concerned.

What would your sentiments be, if the OP had asked "How much motor do I need to carry a 25lb. payload, downrange, to a "designated landing area" ?

Dave F.

 

[samb]

I just wanted to know if you can build J and higher solid motors at home without Level 1 Certification. Also if there are any federal or state regulations in the California, US that prohibit it.

HEY ROCKETMAN1234. Please come back and explain yourself. If not then be branded a bot and a troll for all time. Suffer the ignominy of having your very first thread on TRF locked. SHAME!

 

[Douglas]

That is because the OP is a bot or someone lurking for nefarious purposes and everyone falls for it.

Lots of that going on lately. Lots of new members who are immediately fishing for information on questionable things.

I cannot imagine someone with nefarious intentions asking an international forum about the legalities of building a rocket of any size. I really do not think that this forum needs to concern itself with such things. The author is obviously concerned about breaking the laws or imposed restrictions of rocketry.

 

[Banzai88]

I cannot imagine someone with nefarious intentions asking an international forum about the legalities of building a rocket of any size. I really do not think that this forum needs to concern itself with such things. The author is obviously concerned about breaking the laws or imposed restrictions of rocketry.

Until you realize that at least during one phase of that late unpleasantness in the middle east a metric butt ton of those things that we picked up out of the desert that were fired at us looked an awful lot like many of the US domestic commercial rocket kits that we take for granted.

 

[boatgeek]

Until you realize that at least during one phase of that late unpleasantness in the middle east a metric butt ton of those things that we picked up out of the desert that were fired at us looked an awful lot like many of the US domestic commercial rocket kits that we take for granted.

That's a new one on me. Do you have a source for that? I'm not doubting the account; I'd just like to learn more.

Exactly how many people who lobbed Minnie Maggs at US troops do you think asked on a public forum whether it's legal to mix motors without an L1 cert? That's the root of the issue. I have no doubt that people who mean harm (really to anyone) look stuff up on the internet. I have zero problem with the TRF rules keeping motor formulation questions tightly locked down in the Research subforum. I just don't see how asking about the legality of motor mixing in the US can possibly lead to terrorist acts.

 

[Ez2cDave]

I cannot imagine someone with nefarious intentions asking an international forum about the legalities of building a rocket of any size. I really do not think that this forum needs to concern itself with such things. The author is obviously concerned about breaking the laws or imposed restrictions of rocketry.

Frankly, I took his question to mean, " Can I buy J motors, or larger, or the ingredients to make them myself, without being certified ( registered, licensed, identified )". To me, that sounds like someone wanting "fly under the radar" , regardless of their "intentions" . . . It is highly suspicious.

Dave F.

 

[Banzai88]

That's a new one on me. Do you have a source for that? I'm not doubting the account; I'd just like to learn more.

I'll PM you so as not to have any potential of running afoul of any rules.

 

[boatgeek]

Frankly, I took his question to mean, " Can I buy J motors, or larger, or the ingredients to make them myself, without being certified ( registered, licensed, identified )". To me, that sounds like someone wanting "fly under the radar" , regardless of their "intentions" . . . It is highly suspicious.

Dave F.

If you are set on reading it that way, I guess it could be. Or it could be any of a dozen other kids who come on here who have just made their first sugar motors off of King of Random YouTube and want to go to space next year. Teenagers everywhere try to get around the rules. Smart teenagers try to rules-lawyer getting around the rules. Terrorists try to bring as little attention to themselves as possible.

I'll PM you so as not to have any potential of running afoul of any rules.

Thanks.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Most states have adopted NFPA 1127 as law. Among the prohibited acts described by NFPA 1127 is possession, use, or storage of a high power rocket motor or reload by someone who is not a certified user other than for use in certification.

I was not aware of this. You are saying that certification is linked to the law via NFPA 1127? My understanding is certification is only relevant for insurance and flying at NAR/Tripoli launches. Please clarify.

 

[wsume99]

I just don't see how asking about the legality of motor mixing in the US can possibly lead to terrorist acts.

I happen to think it's quite unlikely that this question would lead to terrorist acts. However I do think there is a non-zero probability it could. Regardless of how small that probability is it's non-zero. The question asked proved to me that the person at a minimum understands HPR motors are regulated and that experimental motors are even more tightly controlled. Maybe they are a teenager or a newbie trying to get around the rules. Does that mean we should explain everything clearly to them so they can find a way around the rules so easily? I don't think so. With a few notable exceptions I cannot see any reason to produce EX motors without being L2 certified. If it's not clear to me the person is asking for legitimate reasons I will assume they don't have one and refrain from responding until it's clear to me they have one.

 

[Handeman]

IMO someone asking on their first post ever if they can make J motors without being L1 certified is definitely a potentially dangerous situation. The fact that our safety regulations basically say you shouldn't be making any motors at all unless you are L2 certified confirms I'm not way off base in that assessment.

What safety regulation say you have to be certified to make motors? I think you are confusing flying research motors with making them.

You have to be L2 to fly your own motors at a Tripoli sanctioned, insured, launch, but Tripoli is not involved in any way with regulating the making of motors and I don't believe they want anything to do with regulating the making of motors.

TRF has their own rules for their own reasons for the restricted research forum, but again, they are not regulating the making of motors, only controlling what is said about it, and who can say it on their forum.

NFPA 1125 Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors Code para 1.1.7 says that 1125 does NOT apply to individuals making motor for their own use. 1122 & 1127 are about the safe flying of rockets. Making rocket motors is like brewing beer, as long as you do it for yourself, don't sell any, and don't make too much as to be considered commercial, it is unregulated.

 

[Banzai88]

Making rocket motors is like brewing beer, as long as you do it for yourself, don't sell any, and don't make too much as to be considered commercial, it is unregulated.

As an avid home brewer, to be clear, both the US CFR and many states have laws capping the quantity (and in some cases ABV) of home brew beer one can make on an annual basis. https://homebrewacademy.com/state-federal-homebrewing-laws/

Unpoliced/unpoliceable is not the same as unregulated.

However, you are correct in that there appears to be no regulation of the making of HP motors for personal use.

 

[Handeman]

As an avid home brewer, to be clear, both the US CFR and many states have laws capping the quantity (and in some cases ABV) of home brew beer one can make on an annual basis. https://homebrewacademy.com/state-federal-homebrewing-laws/

Unpoliced/unpoliceable is not the same as unregulated.

However, you are correct in that there appears to be no regulation of the making of HP motors for personal use.

I agree, and like the quantity of beer brewed, I think there is something in 1127 about having more than 50 lbs. of propellant puts you into a "commercial" range. And you are also right about local AWJ having their own rules.

 

[Steve Shannon]

NFPA 1125 Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors Code para 1.1.7 says that 1125 does NOT apply to individuals making motor for their own use. 1122 & 1127 are about the safe flying of rockets. Making rocket motors is like brewing beer, as long as you do it for yourself, don't sell any, and don't make too much as to be considered commercial, it is unregulated.

However, you are correct in that there appears to be no regulation of the making of HP motors for personal use.

Well, sort of.
Look at the Prohibition section in NFPA 1127. Making motors for one’s own use is specifically mentioned there with and exception for members of an organization studying new technologies or something like that.
As I mentioned before it’s highly unlikely that someone would be charged but it’s not impossible.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Well, sort of.
Look at the Prohibition section in NFPA 1127. Making motors for one’s own use is specifically mentioned there with and exception for members of an organization studying new technologies or something like that.
As I mentioned before it’s highly unlikely that someone would be charged but it’s not impossible.

NFPA isn’t available without paying for it. (Correction, the codes are available, through a sign in.) I am surprised it is actual law beyond guidance. For example I have no way to *easily* use publicly available material to verify or deny your above post. If you could, can you look into this further?

 

[Titan II]

NFPA isn’t available without paying for it. I am surprised it is actual law beyond guidance. For example I have no way to use publicly available material to verify or deny your above post. If you could, can you look into this further?

That is not correct. Maybe you should view the site again. You were on a thread in April where it was mentioned that it is free to view.

 

[samb]

NFPA isn’t available without paying for it. I am surprised it is actual law beyond guidance. For example I have no way to use publicly available material to verify or deny your above post. If you could, can you look into this further?

NFPA codes can be viewed for free at nfpa.org. Create an id and sign in. Painless

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

That is not correct. Maybe you should view the site again. You were on a thread in April where it was mentioned that it is free to view.

I actually just looked and I was going to post here again to correct and then saw these posts. Yes, I stand corrected that the codes are free but require a sign in. Ie, not fully accessible.

 

[Joekeyo]

You can do anything you want on your last day.

If you live in California you should know almost everything is illegal, esp. in a city.

Not cannabis

 

[samb]

We've surely scared off ol' RocketMan1234 by now.

 

[wsume99]

What safety regulation say you have to be certified to make motors? I think you are confusing flying research motors with making them.

You have to be L2 to fly your own motors at a Tripoli sanctioned, insured, launch, but Tripoli is not involved in any way with regulating the making of motors and I don't believe they want anything to do with regulating the making of motors.

TRF has their own rules for their own reasons for the restricted research forum, but again, they are not regulating the making of motors, only controlling what is said about it, and who can say it on their forum.

NFPA 1125 Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors Code para 1.1.7 says that 1125 does NOT apply to individuals making motor for their own use. 1122 & 1127 are about the safe flying of rockets. Making rocket motors is like brewing beer, as long as you do it for yourself, don't sell any, and don't make too much as to be considered commercial, it is unregulated.

Read NFPA 1127, Section 6.1, Note 5

It doesn't mention TRA specifically but what other "recognized national user organization" is there that permits the use of experimental rocket motors? I'm not sure how you can argue your purpose of building EX motors is to experiment with TRA if you are not TRA L2 certified. Maybe you are a TRA member and working towards your L2 certification? In my mind NFPA 1127 indirectly says you need to be TRA L2 to even make a HPR EX motor. If you are not then you better have a good story.

It also only limits the prohibition to HPR motors, so unless there is a restriction elsewhere you can experiment with MPR and below with no issues as far as I can tell.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Read NFPA 1127, Section 6.1, Note 5

So I found this because I am curious. It states you are allowed to make rocket motors for a national organization aka Tripoli, or an AHJ. The AHJ is the authority having jurisdiction. The AHJ in many instances is the land owner. In other words, what you do on your property is your business. If you are on your land, and you are the AHJ, you are good. At least that is how I am reading NFPA 1127.

A few points. The AHJ language is vague and if the original poster works with the fire department and wants to both make and statically-test rockets motors, the fire department can almost certainly can approve the activity without any Tripoli certifications. Also this thread is a bit silly since nobody with any sense should play with rocket propellant without a mentor who know safety procedures and local regulations.

Definitely check with a lawyer before doing anything and everything I am saying is from what I am reading from the codes with zero legal background.

Also Steve is right about local states adopting NFPA. I find it strange given that the codes are not "point and click" available and they have a copyright too, but I checked Massachusetts and that appears correct.

Lastly as odd as this is, I think having NFPA linked to real law is great for us. It gives Tripoli fliers who follow the codes legitimacy so that is awesome.

 

[cerving]

There IS a place in CA where you can make and fly research motors... FAR. They have the motor-making equipment, shop facilities, and launch site all in one convenient place. They also conduct classes, so you'll know 110% what you are doing. Of course, "What goes on at FAR stays at FAR", so you better commit to spending some time there... you can't take your work home with you.

 

[jderimig]

Certification is required to possess high power motors except for purposes of certification. This is the kind of law that probably never would result in charges unless something bad has already happened, but it’s important that our members know and understand the laws.

I am not sure that this is a general law. Is this specifically a CA statute? NFPA as you said is not a law it is code. Enforcement of code violation has to exist in specifically define law along with definitions and penalties.

I can wire my own home freely in violation of electrical codes. However the building department can condemn by home by revoking the COO if they find a violation or an insurance company may not pay my claim if an inspection finds a code violation. Those penalties are not spelled out in the code, they are in statutes or contracts you make with private parties.

 

[dhbarr]

How many newton seconds can an angel mix on the head of a pin?

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I am not sure that this is a general law. Is this specifically a CA statute? NFPA as you said is not a law it is code. Enforcement of code violation has to exist in specifically define law along with definitions and penalties.

I am wondering this too, but after reading through NFPA and the MA statute, I think it is a law and I think this is very weird. My prior interpretation was that Tripoli makes a nice "path" for fliers like myself to follow and stay within the rules. If someone wanted to "do it themselves", I thought they could but they would then need to work it out with all the agencies to get all the various permissions. I *think* this is true for home built motors but for commercial motors I am not sure.

 

[cls]

I find it strange given that the codes are not "point and click" available and they have a copyright too, but I checked Massachusetts and that appears correct.

yes, it is true, we have secret laws in our United States. grumble.