AeroTech Open Thread

[jd2cylman]

You people and your colored casings. Me? There is no way I could possibly care less for the case color. They be could anodized hot pink and it would not dissuade my decision to purchase one bit. They disappear into the rocket which is why I have never ever understood why case color matters. Ever.

Actually, think how hard it would be to lose a hot pink case. You loan that sucker out, you know they'll bring it back...
You kick it out on the grass, it'll show...
Kick it out in a corn field, yeah, it's gone...

 

[heada]

Actually, think how hard it would be to lose a hot pink case. You loan that sucker out, you know they'll bring it back...
You kick it out on the grass, it'll show...
Kick it out in a corn field, yeah, it's gone...

If AT were to switch to pink, over time everyone who had one would have a pink one...thus no stigma in having a pink case and no issue with lack of returned loaners.

 

[jd2cylman]

If AT were to switch to pink, over time everyone who had one would have a pink one...thus no stigma in having a pink case and no issue with lack of returned loaners.

True. Although... I got my dad a special edition set of Snap On pink screwdrivers for Christmas a few years ago. I had gotten him a green set a couple of years before that and they were always missing one or two. The pink ones stayed in the toolbox. When he moved to town, he left those too...
However, I'd still buy the hot pink ones... They're hard to lose in the dirt.

 

[blackjack2564]

. This is a key element for 29mm minimum diameter airframes not wanting to use a hardpoint style recovery anchor.

Simple solution: drill hole for 4-40 machine screw. cover threads with plastic straw to prevent threads from chaffing cord.
Done;


Wildman has boxes full of AT 29-38 54mm hardware...just in .....call him for your needs.ith more on the way.

 

[jjwb22101]

That's odd, 38mm is in stock and has been shipping regularly. 29/180 and 29/240 are in stock now and the others will be in next week. What dealers do or do not have in stock is not necessarily a reflection of what we do or do not have in stock.

Quite frankly, as a business person, I'm sure you understand that while you may have items in stock, if we can't get them from our vendors, and they claim it's an issue on your end, that looks bad for you. Let's say I wanted to get my L2 cert, and wanted to use a reloadable motor to do this. Let's further assume I'm on any sort of a budget, which basically restricts me to the 38/720 casing (there really isn't much reason to spend more money on a bigger casing). I'll take a look at a few vendors to see what they have in stock. Performance Hobbies only has the forward seal disk in stock, and doesn't have any reloads. Apogee Components has reloads, but no hardware (only the forward seal disk is in stock). Balsa Machining Service has closures and the seal disk, but again doesn't have the casing, and half the reloads are sold out. Chris' Rocket Supplies doesn't have the casing, but has closures and reloads. Bay Area Rocketry has the casing and forward closure (and reloads), but no aft closures. Of all the vendors I looked at, the only one who had everything in stock was Wildman. The other thing I noticed is that it's not just that hardware has been hard to find, but a number of vendors appear to be having trouble keeping reloads in stock as well - including my typical on-site vendors (I'd rather not pay hazmat if I can avoid it).

I remember it was only a couple years ago that I could go up to a vendor and ask for a specific motor (say... an I357), and they'd have a box full of them. Now I'm lucky if they've got anything that will fit in that casing in stock. It isn't just an issue with HPR loads, either - the difficulty in finding anyone with E and F motors in stock for TARC has also been increasing, which, quite frankly, is a bit baffling to me. The rules for the year practically dictate the popular motors (2 eggs and the F39 will be the most commonly used motor, 1 egg and it's the E28), and since the rules are released at the finals of the previous competition, there's PLENTY of time to ramp up production and ensure a stock of reloads for the next January-March qual flight spree, when those reloads vanish off the face of the Earth.

I know all of this may not be entirely within your hands to control, but you have to understand that all of these issues are ultimately going to impact how AT is viewed as a company, and will push people towards competitors. If that means finding additional machinists who can manufacture to the correct tolerances, or streamlining the warranty process (and prioritizing warranty replacements over orders, as well as better communications with people filing warranty claims), or looking at the market to better predict when demand will be high for certain products, or making sure that your vendors not only have a stock of product, but also that there's a backstock of everything in case there's a production problem, then do all those things! At the very least you'll be improving the company, which is never a bad thing.

I've been flying Aerotech motors for years (that cert special thing you were doing for a while was a hard deal to pass up on), and don't plan on changing that any time soon - you guys make great, high-quality motors and I hope that never changes - just wish it was easier to get my hands on more of them!

 

[grouch]

Umm, I'd buy some pink cases.

 

[Ez2cDave]

On the subject of anodizing . . .

Why not just clear anodize them and call it a day ?

Dave F.

 

[Banzai88]

Quite frankly, as a business person, I'm sure you understand that while you may have items in stock, if we can't get them from our vendors, and they claim it's an issue on your end, that looks bad for you. Let's say I wanted to get my L2 cert, and wanted to use a reloadable motor to do this. Let's further assume I'm on any sort of a budget, which basically restricts me to the 38/720 casing (there really isn't much reason to spend more money on a bigger casing). I'll take a look at a few vendors to see what they have in stock. Performance Hobbies only has the forward seal disk in stock, and doesn't have any reloads. Apogee Components has reloads, but no hardware (only the forward seal disk is in stock). Balsa Machining Service has closures and the seal disk, but again doesn't have the casing, and half the reloads are sold out. Chris' Rocket Supplies doesn't have the casing, but has closures and reloads. Bay Area Rocketry has the casing and forward closure (and reloads), but no aft closures. Of all the vendors I looked at, the only one who had everything in stock was Wildman. The other thing I noticed is that it's not just that hardware has been hard to find, but a number of vendors appear to be having trouble keeping reloads in stock as well - including my typical on-site vendors (I'd rather not pay hazmat if I can avoid it).

I remember it was only a couple years ago that I could go up to a vendor and ask for a specific motor (say... an I357), and they'd have a box full of them. Now I'm lucky if they've got anything that will fit in that casing in stock. It isn't just an issue with HPR loads, either - the difficulty in finding anyone with E and F motors in stock for TARC has also been increasing, which, quite frankly, is a bit baffling to me. The rules for the year practically dictate the popular motors (2 eggs and the F39 will be the most commonly used motor, 1 egg and it's the E28), and since the rules are released at the finals of the previous competition, there's PLENTY of time to ramp up production and ensure a stock of reloads for the next January-March qual flight spree, when those reloads vanish off the face of the Earth.

I know all of this may not be entirely within your hands to control, but you have to understand that all of these issues are ultimately going to impact how AT is viewed as a company, and will push people towards competitors. If that means finding additional machinists who can manufacture to the correct tolerances, or streamlining the warranty process (and prioritizing warranty replacements over orders, as well as better communications with people filing warranty claims), or looking at the market to better predict when demand will be high for certain products, or making sure that your vendors not only have a stock of product, but also that there's a backstock of everything in case there's a production problem, then do all those things! At the very least you'll be improving the company, which is never a bad thing.

I've been flying Aerotech motors for years (that cert special thing you were doing for a while was a hard deal to pass up on), and don't plan on changing that any time soon - you guys make great, high-quality motors and I hope that never changes - just wish it was easier to get my hands on more of them!

Agreed on so many points. But, we're talking to a company that hasn't updated it's consumer catalog in, what, 9 years or so? As a BAR several years ago, THAT ALONE is what sent me to the other guys (up to date information). Having to piece together information from the date of the catalog-to-current for a new guy is neither easy nor safe, considering that without some full time hands on mentorship, early on you don't even know what you don't know. By comparison, I found learning to reload metallic cartridges an order of magnitude easier than understanding rocket reloads.

And it's always been the 'vendor's issue' (in this thread), no matter what, and frankly that excuse is as old as it is exhausted. Over the last 3 years, it's been easier to source Dr Rocket stuff than new AT, so something has gone astray. That includes shopping locally, online, and awaiting BF sales/deliveries.

I'm guessing that business is SO GOOD for AT that those of us new to their products, crossing over, or BAR.......just aren't enough of a money stream to matter. We're L1s or L2s, typically casual fliers, non-TARC, and not going to drop serious coin for multiple $100+ level motors a year, although our total purchases might well exceed what an L3 flier might spend in a year. Me, I'm spending $100-$300/month on rockets, motors, electronics, and supplies. About to hit my L2 and step that up to get to where I want to be.

Not going to throw my AT stuff in the ditch and I don't want AT going anywhere but up, but I find myself not being able to get what I want to fly my field, and thus either not flying or going with another consumer product. AT's response, as stated here multiple times is "Goodbye and good luck". It's such a repeated drum beat that I would be less offended with just being given the middle finger.

3 years since venturing into amateur rocketry, no changes, none on the horizon. Just frustrated. That's why I left RC cars after 15 years of regional/national levels of competition.....for them, if you're not 'serious enough to buy a new platform every year, you're not serious enough to warrant our notice". I'm seeing a similar attitude in amateur rocketry from the the motor manufacturers, and to a lesser extent, the larger kit manufacturers.

Vendors.....they're AWESOME. My local guys ROCK, and those that attend things like Red Glare have me as a devoted customer for life.

 

[gldknght]

Agreed on so many points. But, we're talking to a company that hasn't updated it's consumer catalog in, what, 9 years or so? As a BAR several years ago, THAT ALONE is what sent me to the other guys (up to date information). Having to piece together information from the date of the catalog-to-current for a new guy is neither easy nor safe, considering that without some full time hands on mentorship, early on you don't even know what you don't know. By comparison, I found learning to reload metallic cartridges an order of magnitude easier than understanding rocket reloads.

And it's always been the 'vendor's issue' (in this thread), no matter what, and frankly that excuse is as old as it is exhausted. Over the last 3 years, it's been easier to source Dr Rocket stuff than new AT, so something has gone astray. That includes shopping locally, online, and awaiting BF sales/deliveries.

I'm guessing that business is SO GOOD for AT that those of us new to their products, crossing over, or BAR.......just aren't enough of a money stream to matter. We're L1s or L2s, typically casual fliers, non-TARC, and not going to drop serious coin for multiple $100+ level motors a year, although our total purchases might well exceed what an L3 flier might spend in a year. Me, I'm spending $100-$300/month on rockets, motors, electronics, and supplies. About to hit my L2 and step that up to get to where I want to be.

Not going to throw my AT stuff in the ditch and I don't want AT going anywhere but up, but I find myself not being able to get what I want to fly my field, and thus either not flying or going with another consumer product. AT's response, as stated here multiple times is "Goodbye and good luck". It's such a repeated drum beat that I would be less offended with just being given the middle finger.

3 years since venturing into amateur rocketry, no changes, none on the horizon. Just frustrated. That's why I left RC cars after 15 years of regional/national levels of competition.....for them, if you're not 'serious enough to buy a new platform every year, you're not serious enough to warrant our notice". I'm seeing a similar attitude in amateur rocketry from the the motor manufacturers, and to a lesser extent, the larger kit manufacturers.

Vendors.....they're AWESOME. My local guys ROCK, and those that attend things like Red Glare have me as a devoted customer for life.

I've basically been saying this same thing over the last few weeks, but when I have, I get beat over the head for "not paying attention" or I'm attacked by members on the site for having an issue with Aerotech. I also have been a loyal Aerotech customer for at least two decades. If I can't get the hardware and reload supplies from a few of the vendors I use regularly, I simply don't have the time to shop 7 different vendors to put together a couple cases and 3 reloads to fly, not to mention the budget for all that extra shipping.

Aerotech says they are shipping hardware. I've spoken to some vendors about this over the last few days. One major vendor says they haven't received hardware from Aerotech in months, with some unfilled back-orders going back over a year.

Another major vendor I spoke with says they get a few items from Aerotech from time to time, but nothing near what they need to get orders out to the customers.

Yesterday or the day before, I sent a message to ATGM ( the Aerotech guy that started this thread) here and encouraged him to reach out to these vendors personally and try to find out where this disconnect is happening. I also sent him the direct links to some vendor websites that show all their aerotech hardware being listed as "out of stock".

If he follows up on that message I will keep you all posted. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Eljay]

I gotta say this tactic of blaming the vendors is really backfiring, with me anyway. The level of customer service in the hobby is very high, we are extremely fortunate to have these guys, for sure. So trying to make them the scape goat strikes me as kind of a desperation move.

 

[DAllen]

Wildman has boxes full of AT 29-38 54mm hardware...just in .....call him for your needs.ith more on the way.

Which gives more evidence that AT is catering to the big orders and ignoring the little guys. Nice.

 

[jd2cylman]

Which gives more evidence that AT is catering to the big orders and ignoring the little guys. Nice.

Not necessarily.... Maybe AT wasn't involved at all.... Just sayin... Be patient...

 

[Jmhepworth]

Interesting to watch this thread. See something I don’t understand (I can’t get the hardware I want from my favorite vendor). Tell myself a story (AT hates my favorite vendor). Enlist others to hate AT.

My experience with AT has always been good. My local vendor (huzzah for Das Rockets) has always had what I needed or could get it. My go to on-line vendor (huzzah for Wildman) has allays been able to get me what I asked for. And AT customer service has been great for a really small company (fewer than 20 employees, if I recall correctly).

Joe

 

[pendrin2020]

I'll be totally honest, I'm waaaaay too lazy to read the last few pages to get a FULL idea of what's being discussed, but I'll go ahead and chip in my only gripe about AT.

Their website is about as informative as a dumpster fire... there, I said it.

I get SIGNIFICANTLY better information about their products from Chris Short's website than I ever have from the AT website.

 

[tfish]

Nathan, I disagree. I'm amazed at the amount of info on Aerotech's and RCS web sites.

Tony

 

[pendrin2020]

I should have thought a bit more about what I posted. There IS a lot of information there, but it's not actually on the website. It's in the mish-mash of PDF's littered everywhere. On Chris' site, when I click on the motor, I get all of the information I need, right there, and I don't have to scroll through the whole pdf catalog, and squint to see which colored line on the thrust curve chart is the actual motor I'm looking for.

That said, It's fully possible I'm being unreasonable here. I am a software dev. lazy UI's and lackluster presentation get under my skin a bit. lol. To each their own.

Mr. tfish, I'm gonna send you a PM here in a minute. It's friendly, I promise. XD

 

[jjwb22101]

Interesting to watch this thread. See something I don’t understand (I can’t get the hardware I want from my favorite vendor). Tell myself a story (AT hates my favorite vendor). Enlist others to hate AT.

My experience with AT has always been good. My local vendor (huzzah for Das Rockets) has always had what I needed or could get it. My go to on-line vendor (huzzah for Wildman) has allays been able to get me what I asked for. And AT customer service has been great for a really small company (fewer than 20 employees, if I recall correctly).

Joe

The problem is that it seems like you're the only one with that experience, and that Wildman is the ONLY person who seems to get hardware and reloads. I don't live in the midwest, and quite frankly, would rather not pay the extra $30 on hazmat shipping, and since I've got onsite vendors at my launches, I shouldn't have to. Also, yes AT has fewer than 20 people. They're also easily in the top 3 biggest companies in model and HPR (only ones bigger are Estes and CTI), and I've gotten much faster responses from both those larger companies and significantly smaller ones. This may be simply a luxury of the rocketry community, but I'm surprised if I ever have to wait more than a day to hear back from anyone, and AT always seems to take much longer.

I gotta say this tactic of blaming the vendors is really backfiring, with me anyway. The level of customer service in the hobby is very high, we are extremely fortunate to have these guys, for sure. So trying to make them the scape goat strikes me as kind of a desperation move.

Exactly - I've never had a poor customer service experience with ANY of the vendors I've worked with in the past, and since this seems to be a problem that persists across vendors, I'm inclined to believe them.

 

[grouch]

So what's the fix? All this hand wringing has to lead to something? People refuse to fly AT yet they show up in the AT to air out their undies. The real solution is to diversify. Have enough hardware from each manufacturer to fly what you want when you want it. If AT is having supply issues, fly CTI or Loki until the AT stuff you want is available. What's wrong with that?

I can remember when you couldn't get a CTI load for love or money. If you didn't know a vendor with a trailer full of loads you were out. Loki? Yup, you'll go through months of going without certain loads at any given time.

Remember guys, this is a hobby and it's suppose to be fun. Please stop and try to remember there are people out there with much more serious problems than not getting a reload or a case when they "need it".

 

[Eljay]

If AT is having supply issues, fly CTI or Loki until the AT stuff you want is available. What's wrong with that?

Well, I think that's actually kind of the point, I've been flying AT mostly because that's what existed when i was back in college, and as a BAR I went back to them just from inertia. 24mm cases, 29mm cases, 38 mm cases. Now I'm in the market for 54mm cases and I'm looking at CTI motor options for the first time. Probably never would have bothered otherwise. But it definitely feels like time to get my eggs out of one basket.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

The problem is that it seems like you're the only one with that experience, and that Wildman is the ONLY person who seems to get hardware and reloads. I don't live in the midwest, and quite frankly, would rather not pay the extra $30 on hazmat shipping, and since I've got onsite vendors at my launches, I shouldn't have to. Also, yes AT has fewer than 20 people. They're also easily in the top 3 biggest companies in model and HPR (only ones bigger are Estes and CTI), and I've gotten much faster responses from both those larger companies and significantly smaller ones. This may be simply a luxury of the rocketry community, but I'm surprised if I ever have to wait more than a day to hear back from anyone, and AT always seems to take much longer.



Exactly - I've never had a poor customer service experience with ANY of the vendors I've worked with in the past, and since this seems to be a problem that persists across vendors, I'm inclined to believe them.

I've been receiving motors and hardware as well. You just need to watch for it as it usually sells immediately, as was the case for my last 6 38mm combos, and all of the cases I received.

 

[Dave A]

My observation is AT has allowed there to be too many vendors. So you have a small handful of vendors that have a lot of inventory, you need that because there are so many pieces of hardware and a slew of reloads.
There is not enough being manufactured to supply a lot of the little guys then their business suffers. Select regions for most of the vendors and keep them supplied.
2 things that hurt vendors:
1) (In general, not just motor companies) Manufacturers directly competing against their own vendors, online and at launches is bad business. If a manufacturer wants to sell direct, sell at RETAIL. That way you spend more time making the product and keeping your dealers supplied. Let them make the sales.
2) I believe in a free economy but if a vendor has a distributor status, keep some of your dealers supplied and make a decent profit selling to customers. Don't do 30% off sales to run all over others that only get dealer pricing. Manufacturers and dealers should come up with a plan to make it fair for everyone. You may get that great deal once a year at 30-35% off and that is awesome. But, that small dealer you like to chat with at the launch will be gone and you'll be paying shipping and hazmat next time.
If you have a local dealer, buy from them. If a manufacturer of anything that has a volume high enough to supply many dealers, don't undercut your dealers. It seems to me a single shipment on a pallet is easier for a business than packing and shipping 60 individual boxes. There used to be something called a "dealer network."

 

[grouch]

Good points Dave.

 

[jjwb22101]

I've been receiving motors and hardware as well. You just need to watch for it as it usually sells immediately, as was the case for my last 6 38mm combos, and all of the cases I received.

That's kinda the problem we're trying to get addressed - I remember a couple years ago at NSL, your trailer was packed to the brim with reloads and hardware. For the more popular reloads, you had literal boxes full of them (I remember specifically a very large box filled to the brim with H128's), and you had at least a couple of even the really obscure reloads. And you had multiple of a lot of the hardware in stock too! (Thanks for the 38/360 casing, by the way - it's seen a lot of use!)

The issue seems to be that while certain vendors appear to actually have enough stock of items, most don't have anything stocked up, so they'll get a shipment, it will sell out almost immediately, and then the vendor will be out of stock until the next shipment comes in. This is an issue for the consumer, because we aren't able to get motors/hardware on our own schedule, we have to plan around whenever AT ships stuff to our local vendors, and it seems like Aerotech isn't doing anything to address this.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

That's kinda the problem we're trying to get addressed - I remember a couple years ago at NSL, your trailer was packed to the brim with reloads and hardware. For the more popular reloads, you had literal boxes full of them (I remember specifically a very large box filled to the brim with H128's), and you had at least a couple of even the really obscure reloads. And you had multiple of a lot of the hardware in stock too! (Thanks for the 38/360 casing, by the way - it's seen a lot of use!)

The issue seems to be that while certain vendors appear to actually have enough stock of items, most don't have anything stocked up, so they'll get a shipment, it will sell out almost immediately, and then the vendor will be out of stock until the next shipment comes in. This is an issue for the consumer, because we aren't able to get motors/hardware on our own schedule, we have to plan around whenever AT ships stuff to our local vendors, and it seems like Aerotech isn't doing anything to address this.

Im still packed on motors, and the few that I'm out of are because they just sold. Bottom line is if the dealer places the order, Aerotech will fill it assuming the dealer pays for it. I have about 1500lbs of motors(propellant) in stock, and there are 2 x70lb boxes coming on Tuesday. Shipments are regular to the dealers.

 

[swatkat]

I just try and buy a few year's supply when it is available so I'm not dependent on the dealers. I'm thinking I've likely got 70lbs or more in just 24, 29 and 38 reloads, which with our fields is mostly what I'm able to fly. With the price increases as well over the last few years, it also makes sense...
Hardware though can be hard. I remember a year or so back, 24/40 and hobbyline 29 cases were scarce. I think I've been able to get hold of 8 total in the last two years though, but only by hitting the dealers as the stock came in as Chris says...our local guy also had a few.

 

[rharshberger]

My observation is AT has allowed there to be too many vendors. So you have a small handful of vendors that have a lot of inventory, you need that because there are so many pieces of hardware and a slew of reloads.
There is not enough being manufactured to supply a lot of the little guys then their business suffers. Select regions for most of the vendors and keep them supplied.
2 things that hurt vendors:
1) (In general, not just motor companies) Manufacturers directly competing against their own vendors, online and at launches is bad business. If a manufacturer wants to sell direct, sell at RETAIL. That way you spend more time making the product and keeping your dealers supplied. Let them make the sales.
2) I believe in a free economy but if a vendor has a distributor status, keep some of your dealers supplied and make a decent profit selling to customers. Don't do 30% off sales to run all over others that only get dealer pricing. Manufacturers and dealers should come up with a plan to make it fair for everyone. You may get that great deal once a year at 30-35% off and that is awesome. But, that small dealer you like to chat with at the launch will be gone and you'll be paying shipping and hazmat next time.
If you have a local dealer, buy from them. If a manufacturer of anything that has a volume high enough to supply many dealers, don't undercut your dealers. It seems to me a single shipment on a pallet is easier for a business than packing and shipping 60 individual boxes. There used to be something called a "dealer network."

I concur Dave, in this area we have 2 dealers, one Washington and one Oregon, for neither is it a short drive to get to our field (3hours for one and about 5 or so for the other), yet a dealer from California drives up to the larger launches and cuts the pie into even smaller pieces. The cause is that the two smaller dealers are slowly getting cut out of the business, and they are our bread and butter dealers (we see them several launches each year) and the big dealer only at the bigger launches each year.

 

[Eric]

I concur Dave, in this area we have 2 dealers, one Washington and one Oregon, for neither is it a short drive to get to our field (3hours for one and about 5 or so for the other), yet a dealer from California drives up to the larger launches and cuts the pie into even smaller pieces. The cause is that the two smaller dealers are slowly getting cut out of the business, and they are our bread and butter dealers (we see them several launches each year) and the big dealer only at the bigger launches each year.

I believe I know that bigger dealer that makes that drive for your big launches. And I believe he makes it all the way down to southern California. I believe he supports at least 5 clubs in CA and is always there for them. And I know exactly how the smaller dealers feel. The bigger dealer you see only a couple times a year. Is getting his pie cut in half at several of his launches, by an even bigger dealer that goes across the country.

I know that several of these venders are trying to make a living by supporting our hobby. Even being on a budget I try to support them at full MSRP. But when there is a shortage, it leaves me buying elsewhere.

 

[crossfire]

I concur Dave, in this area we have 2 dealers, one Washington and one Oregon, for neither is it a short drive to get to our field (3hours for one and about 5 or so for the other), yet a dealer from California drives up to the larger launches and cuts the pie into even smaller pieces. The cause is that the two smaller dealers are slowly getting cut out of the business, and they are our bread and butter dealers (we see them several launches each year) and the big dealer only at the bigger launches each year.

You know your club can limit who you want as far as vendors at your launches. We at QCRS have voted to keep Wildman as our only vendor at our launches . Tim or Jackie come to each launch no matter what. From the middle of winter or if there are only 5 flyers they are there. Its the same for WOOSH or TWA they come to each launch. Its up to a club do you want a vendor at each launch or just once a year for your big launches. I myself don't want to buy a years worth of motors at once. And i perfer not to have them shipped.

 

[blackjack2564]

If you have too many dealers showing up at your large launch,cutting into your regular dealers business, start doing exclusive vendor privileges only & let your membership vote on it to be fair.

 

[gldknght]

So what's the fix? All this hand wringing has to lead to something? People refuse to fly AT yet they show up in the AT to air out their undies. The real solution is to diversify. Have enough hardware from each manufacturer to fly what you want when you want it. If AT is having supply issues, fly CTI or Loki until the AT stuff you want is available. What's wrong with that?

I can remember when you couldn't get a CTI load for love or money. If you didn't know a vendor with a trailer full of loads you were out. Loki? Yup, you'll go through months of going without certain loads at any given time.

Remember guys, this is a hobby and it's suppose to be fun. Please stop and try to remember there are people out there with much more serious problems than not getting a reload or a case when they "need it".

This may be the best option we have for the time being. Or permanently going forward.

I want to clarify something. I am absolutely not trying to blame any one for this situation with AT supplies. Maybe it's not my place, but I've been trying to actively help resolve this issue. AT says they are shipping hardware. The vendors (not "little guys" actually I've spoken to a couple major vendors) I've spoken to say "no they're not, not to us anyway."

Maybe Grouch has the right idea. If we all stop buying AT hardware for a while and use other options, the demand will drop quite quickly, giving everyone a chance to catch their breath and catch up on back orders, warranty issues, etc.

Maybe then when everything settles down, we start buying AT stuff again if we want to.