Come on, Boeing.
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boatgeek
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The picture is from an internal text discussing the interior reinstallation that would happen on the second shift (text sent 1839 local time).
That was quite the read... and I agree, it does seem that Boeing really dropped the ball on this one.
The NTSB report was the top of the front page of the Seattle Times today with another extensive story by Dominic Gates.
Basically the NTSB confirmed the only plausible (to me, at least) mechanism for this to have happened. There are going to be some interesting times down at the end of whichever of the three final assembly lines this airplane rolled out from. There probably should be some interesting times on all three lines (and the now on-hold fourth line up in Everett) actually.
Since they had to pull insulation and interior pieces for access, those discrepant rivets weren't noticed, or at least dealt with, in the first position the fuselages are put into after they come off the train — which is where the insulation goes in along with wiring and such — but some time later. So not only did the bolts get "lost" in the handoff between shifts (and between Spirit- and Boeing-badged mechanics) it also happened further down the line than it should have. Or so it seems to me.
What a mess!
Basically the NTSB confirmed the only plausible (to me, at least) mechanism for this to have happened. There are going to be some interesting times down at the end of whichever of the three final assembly lines this airplane rolled out from. There probably should be some interesting times on all three lines (and the now on-hold fourth line up in Everett) actually.
Since they had to pull insulation and interior pieces for access, those discrepant rivets weren't noticed, or at least dealt with, in the first position the fuselages are put into after they come off the train — which is where the insulation goes in along with wiring and such — but some time later. So not only did the bolts get "lost" in the handoff between shifts (and between Spirit- and Boeing-badged mechanics) it also happened further down the line than it should have. Or so it seems to me.
What a mess!
There was an initial report about a woman traveling with her son, and the son lost his shirt. Then I didn't hear anything else about it. No idea how old the son was, if the shirt was somehow removed from him by the wind (suction), or if perhaps it was an outer shirt that he was holding or was not fully fastened.
@BEC, I thank you for you even-handed professionalism through all of this. I still "root" for my former company and have friends there, of course. It looks like the trigger was the non-conforming rivets requiring the plug to be opened. Interesting that the possibility of a bad hand-off over shift change and crews under two different badges (and, I take it, two different supervisors). That's definitely a potent place for "gotcha's" to occur. But still, as unacceptable as it is, it's still a true "lightning bolt" event with respect to passenger safety. I'd get on one of those planes in a heartbeat if I needed to take to the air for some reason.
Thanks, Tom.
The Seattle Times story again today cited the lost shirt bit, when I thought I'd seen something that said it wasn't quite that bad earlier. I don't doubt that as the airplane decompressed through that large hole that a mighty wind was felt for a short time.
But I have to get pedantic: not suction, blowing from the inside of the plane.
The bad hand off between crews (and computerized tracking systems) was described in painful detail in a comment to a leeham.net story about this incident. I haven't been back to that story to see what's there now, but I'm sure Scott Hamilton captured the info and with all the reporters that wanted to get in touch (including the aforementioned Mr. Gates) I don't think that info is just going to disappear.
As I have said several times before in this thread: *sigh*
And that the ejected plug did not turn anyone on the ground into a pancake.
Much like Congress...
To pick up on what @BEC said, I would say he's correct. Outside air is ambient, the cabin air is pressurized, so the cabin air blows out, it is not sucked out.
Think of a pitot tube. The opening in the front picks up dynamic pressure, the side openings pick up static (ambient) pressure. There is no Venturi effect to lower the pressure at the door opening below ambient.
So BEC can be a pedantic, and I'll be the old blowhard!
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The same place all the bolts holding number 3 on 1862 went.
To be a bit more pedantic: I think you've been victimized by autocorrect. Of course you meant pitot tube, not pilot tube....
(sorry)
boatgeek
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A couple of new stories out today:
Boeing has 90 days to give the FAA a plan for improving quality:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...prove-safety-manufacturing-quality-rcna141168
The plug blowout may jeopardize Boeing's non-prosecution agreement with the Dept of Justice dating back to the Max crashes.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/29/business/boeing-justice-department-investigation/index.html
I'm not sure how seriously DOJ is about possibly re-opening prosecution. We'll find out in roughly June, when DOJ has to give a final report on the agreement to a court. I believe the court then has to approve closing out the agreement.
Boeing has 90 days to give the FAA a plan for improving quality:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...prove-safety-manufacturing-quality-rcna141168
The plug blowout may jeopardize Boeing's non-prosecution agreement with the Dept of Justice dating back to the Max crashes.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/29/business/boeing-justice-department-investigation/index.html
I'm not sure how seriously DOJ is about possibly re-opening prosecution. We'll find out in roughly June, when DOJ has to give a final report on the agreement to a court. I believe the court then has to approve closing out the agreement.
NTP2
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The executives are definitely feeling the pain for this.
boatgeek
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I would like to believe that they are, but executives rarely feel the pain that their policies cause. There was one guy who got fired, but everyone else is sitting relatively pretty. Even if criminal charges are contemplated, it's unlikely they will go to the top tier.
NTP2
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the reputation loss will cost them money in the future.
Great. I’m walking around singing “Who left the bolts out” at the top of my voice.
Thanks. I guess.
boatgeek
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Aaaaand now there’s a criminal investigation open. Which may also reopen criminal charges from the MCAS crashes. Boeing can’t find any records of the plug being opened. This more or less confirms whistleblower accounts.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/boeing-find-work-records-related-door-panel-blew-107965215
There was also reporting in the Seattle Times today that after a Congressional hearing where the NTSB complained that Boeing wasn’t providing names of workers, Boeing’s lobbyist sent out an email to some Congresscritters saying that the company had complied with everything but very recent requests for info.
When contacted by the Times, the lobbyist said that the email had been sent accidentally and without his knowledge. Boeing disclaimed any knowledge of the email. Oops.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/boeing-find-work-records-related-door-panel-blew-107965215
There was also reporting in the Seattle Times today that after a Congressional hearing where the NTSB complained that Boeing wasn’t providing names of workers, Boeing’s lobbyist sent out an email to some Congresscritters saying that the company had complied with everything but very recent requests for info.
When contacted by the Times, the lobbyist said that the email had been sent accidentally and without his knowledge. Boeing disclaimed any knowledge of the email. Oops.
The engine is a CFM International product and likely maintained by United or a third party. Boeing is in all likelihood blameless.
I think I heard that the 737 with the landing gear issue was about 20 years old, any number of maintenance or operational failures could have occurred in that time to cause it.
I don’t know anything about the 777 that lost the wheel, but if the aircraft is of some age, that also could have been a maintenance error.
When I read a press report of an "engine fire", I've remapped my neurons to immediately think "compressor stall". On that particular flight, the crew did an excellent job (per their training) returning to the airport, landing safely.
Any news report with "Boeing" in it seems to be sensationalized.
All UAL, eh? Well, who is taking care of those airplanes then?
AV Web is claiming that the engine fire occurred after the engine sucked in bubble wrap on the runway, of all things.
Now, to be fair, it might have been a big, heavy roll of it and not just the single sheet you certainly imagined as you read that sentence, the article didn’t say. It might have caused FOD, it might have just produced airflow issues in the engine after getting stuck in a compressor stage, there might have been other weaknesses already that it aggravated. The point is that we don’t know yet and we’ll have to wait for a report to be published.
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news...-with-string-of-aircraft-incidents-this-week/
Now, to be fair, it might have been a big, heavy roll of it and not just the single sheet you certainly imagined as you read that sentence, the article didn’t say. It might have caused FOD, it might have just produced airflow issues in the engine after getting stuck in a compressor stage, there might have been other weaknesses already that it aggravated. The point is that we don’t know yet and we’ll have to wait for a report to be published.
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news...-with-string-of-aircraft-incidents-this-week/
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So a few thoughts on these recent events.....
the engine "fire" 737 was a 737-900 that was delivered new to Continental in 2002. And it has had a few engine changes by now at that age.
I will say this much, at the moment, I am sure glad that I no longer work for Boeing! I work onsite in Everett for a Boeing vendor, but not the big B any more!
The 737 in Houston was a MAX-8, and it was delivered in June of 2023. Initial reports point to a crew error. Attempting to exit the runway at a high speed, and causing a runway excursion and gear collapse.
The 777 in question that lost the main landing gear wheel was a 777-200, and was delivered to United back in 2001. I'm guessing this bird just recently had a #10 tire change, and the axle nut wasn't torqued back on to spec. (250ft/lb if my memory is correct.... its been a while since I've replaced a wheel on a777)
the engine "fire" 737 was a 737-900 that was delivered new to Continental in 2002. And it has had a few engine changes by now at that age.
I will say this much, at the moment, I am sure glad that I no longer work for Boeing! I work onsite in Everett for a Boeing vendor, but not the big B any more!
My mistake, I mixed up those two 737s. That all makes perfect sense, thanks for that correction.
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