Come on, Boeing.

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ThirstyBarbarian said:
So, this is basically all your fault!
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Nope, my products are much smaller overall compared to the size of the plane. My product are flap supports and landing gear beams.
So if your flaps fall off, or your main gear fall off, then that may be my fault. (no I have nothing to do with a 25 year old 757!)
I am pretty conscientious and have indeed stopped our production line a time or two.
Once I had a second level production manager try to over ride me. I warned him that if he did it again I would get the production ticket pulled. It was not a threat. I would have done so.
The guy bent over backwards for me after that!
(I know you are just being sarcastic, I hope!!!)
 
tsmmiller said:
Nope, my products are much smaller overall compared to the size of the plane. My product are flap supports and landing gear beams.
So if your flaps fall off, or your main gear fall off, then that may be my fault. (no I have nothing to do with a 25 year old 757!)
I am pretty conscientious and have indeed stopped our production line a time or two.
Once I had a second level production manager try to over ride me. I warned him that if he did it again I would get the production ticket pulled. It was not a threat. I would have done so.
The guy bent over backwards for me after that!
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Good job doing a good job 👍
 
jderimig said:
Just because it fits on the CAD/CAM model doesn't mean it will fit in production. Match drilling on large structures is a common, economical and robust technique to get assemblies to fit.
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Bingo! I think you’ve nailed it. The guy’s building 737’s should be mentored by the guys who built 727s and knew what to match drill and read a drawing and the guys building 727s were mentored by the 707 guys who were mentored by the B-47 guys who were mentored by the B-17 guys and gals. All the financial guys could see was high priced older labor which they felt could be replaced by younger cheaper labor with no experienced guidance as they were either layoffs or retired. There was no, “Son I was building these aircraft before you were born, so let me show you a few things.”
 
cls said:
The hits just keep coming. Wrong holes, 50 airframes need rework.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/04/business/boeing-737-max-holes-hnk-intl/index.html
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Maybe this is just me, but I feel like this is a quality control system working. Yes, it would be better if Spirit hasn't mis-drilled the holes, but they found the issue and are implementing a fix.
g.pitts said:
How much drilling is by hand these days (requiring GD&T interpretation)? I would have guessed it is largely done in a CNC-like manner since Spirit produces so many of these airframes for Boeing. I'm sure that @BEC could weigh in on this question.
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This is a completely different production rate and level of support from equipment suppliers, but just about every foundation drawing I've done for a boat tells the yard to template/confirm the mounting holes from the actual equipment. We get too many surprises from equipment suppliers to fully trust the drawings when drilling into heavy plate.
 
boatgeek said:
Maybe this is just me, but I feel like this is a quality control system working. Yes, it would be better if Spirit hasn't mis-drilled the holes, but they found the issue and are implementing a fix.

This is a completely different production rate and level of support from equipment suppliers, but just about every foundation drawing I've done for a boat tells the yard to template/confirm the mounting holes from the actual equipment. We get too many surprises from equipment suppliers to fully trust the drawings when drilling into heavy plate.
Click to expand...
Quote from the article:

“‘These employees are absolutely right. We need to perform jobs at their assigned position,’ he said. ‘We have to maintain this discipline within our four walls and we are going to hold our suppliers to the same standard.’”

You’d think it would be easier to just make stuff in-house where supervisors and workers are directly accountable and can advocate for what they need, instead of just hoping that the subcontractor takes care of all that for you.
 
smstachwick said:
Quote from the article:

“‘These employees are absolutely right. We need to perform jobs at their assigned position,’ he said. ‘We have to maintain this discipline within our four walls and we are going to hold our suppliers to the same standard.’”

You’d think it would be easier to just make stuff in-house where supervisors and workers are directly accountable and can advocate for what they need, instead of just hoping that the subcontractor takes care of all that for you.
Click to expand...
B-b-b-but if you have a straightforward corporate structure with owned major assets and make-or-buy decisions made at the part or minor subassembly levels only (not major assembly level), how are you going to keep all of those corporate structuring consultants busy? If Boeing doesn't hire them, they might only be able to afford one family vacation to the tropics this quarter. Won't someone think of them?!
 
smstachwick said:
You’d think it would be easier to just make stuff in-house where supervisors and workers are directly accountable and can advocate for what they need, instead of just hoping that the subcontractor takes care of all that for you.
Click to expand...
True.
The responsible parties may well be looking at it as a situation of:
there's an entire supply chain, maybe several supply chains, we now don't have to hassle with
there's fixed plant utilities we now don't have to hassle with
there's fixed plant building maintenance we now don't have to hassle with
there's production line machinery and tools we now don't have to hassle with
there's employee hiring we now don't have to hassle with
there's employee benefits we now don't have to hassle with
there's document keeping for all of the above we now don't have to hassle with
there's accounting for all of the above we now don't have to hassle with
 
smstachwick said:
Quote from the article:

“‘These employees are absolutely right. We need to perform jobs at their assigned position,’ he said. ‘We have to maintain this discipline within our four walls and we are going to hold our suppliers to the same standard.’”

You’d think it would be easier to just make stuff in-house where supervisors and workers are directly accountable and can advocate for what they need, instead of just hoping that the subcontractor takes care of all that for you.
Click to expand...
perverse incentives for management. mid level mgrs are evaluated and promoted by dollars under their mgmt, easiest way to increase that is by contractors. management resumes have summaries like "$XXX million department budget, 12 subcontracts, 25 staff", no mention of on time under budget high quality achievement.
 
cls said:
no mention of on time under budget high quality achievement.
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That’s amazing.

Whenever people ask about my Eagle project (small potatoes, I know, bite me), I always mention that it was done on-time and under budget, and that it exceeded the targeted benefits to the beneficiary. That’s on top of the nature and overall scope of the project. What is the point of getting not even half the picture?
 
g.pitts said:
How much drilling is by hand these days (requiring GD&T interpretation)? I would have guessed it is largely done in a CNC-like manner since Spirit produces so many of these airframes for Boeing. I'm sure that @BEC could weigh in on this question.
Click to expand...
Thanks, but no, I can't. The details of the build at that level were not my area of knowledge.

Eric is right — if they're finding this stuff, the system is working.

Some of my best (former) colleagues are (or were) at Spirit and before that Boeing Wichita....and I really wonder what has happened there that has caused their slide. And I really hope that Pat Shanahan can at least get them started back toward being the dependable and creative partner in designing and building the airplanes that they once were.

added: that CNN story gives no clue about what the actual problem is (where in the airplane, what the holes are for, that sort of thing). Without that it's really difficult to tell whether this is just a minor thing or something more.

There's nothing about this in today's Seattle Times. Perhaps Dominic Gates will have some more detail in tomorrow's edition.
 
BEC said:
Thanks, but no, I can't. The details of the build at that level were not my area of knowledge.

Eric is right — if they're finding this stuff, the system is working.

Some of my best (former) colleagues are (or were) at Spirit and before that Boeing Wichita....and I really wonder what has happened there that has caused their slide. And I really hope that Pat Shanahan can at least get them started back toward being the dependable and creative partner in designing and building the airplanes that they once were.

added: that CNN story gives no clue about what the actual problem is (where in the airplane, what the holes are for, that sort of thing). Without that it's really difficult to tell whether this is just a minor thing or something more.

There's nothing about this in today's Seattle Times. Perhaps Dominic Gates will have some more detail in tomorrow's edition.
Click to expand...
Did the news affect Boeing's stock price negatively? For a news organization it's a win-win. We get to do some attention grabbing fear mongering, and our execs get to buy stock at a discount!

Sorry to be so cynical...
 
Bravo52 said:
That's not cynical....that's the modern media. It's very emotional. The click-bait is not to affect Boeing stock, its to affect CNN's stock. They are a "for profit" company.
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Did you buy any Boeing stock? Buy on the dips; buy low, sell high.
 
tsmmiller said:
So if your flaps fall off, or your main gear fall off
Click to expand...
I hope my flaps and main gear never fall off.

Buster said:
All the financial guys could see was high priced older labor which they felt could be replaced by younger cheaper labor with no experienced guidance
Click to expand...
One of my clients pulled that stunt (but replace the word "labor" with "engineers".) We told them it would not end well, and it did not end well. This was a large company with offices in several cities. I'm really surprised that the company survived. Never underestimate the power of marketing.
 
cls said:
Mini-haha. Good deflection. But still, all hat and no cowboy.
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Deflection? Are you asking if I ran out and bought Boeing stock during their latest struggles? Then, no, I did not. If you’re asking if I own Boeing stock then it could be part of my Nunya Fund. I’m not really sure because I have a kind Nigerian Prince handling all of my financial transactions.
 
I have this weird feeling that all of the FAA intense scrutiny and oversight efforts may, in an odd way, be designed to help Boeing, a major US exporter. The oversight and “redoubled efforts” of the FAA will instill confidence in the flying public that Boeing’s planes are safe to fly on.
 
Bravo52 said:
Deflection? Are you asking if I ran out and bought Boeing stock during their latest struggles? Then, no, I did not. If you’re asking if I own Boeing stock then it could be part of my Nunya Fund. I’m not really sure because I have a kind Nigerian Prince handling all of my financial transactions.
Click to expand...

Is this Nigerian accepting new clients? Could you pass him my contact info?
 

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