Your thoughts and opinions on UPS strike

[modeltrains]

Unions are a lot like humans, they can help you, they can do childish things, and sometimes concurrently.

(somewhere around here in a box is the information from when I was in the CWA in the 1990s, saw it some months ago while looking for something else)

 

[cls]

I do often wonder why Right to Work isn't the law of the land

because it is not the right tool for every job. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[RobertH3]

It is an economic question, not political. Numbers don't lie. A single person working a job like delivery has no chance of anything.

Family? Home ownership? Really? At 200.00 a square foot for a new home being a bargain? Retirement isn't even in the picture.
Given present cost of living, apartment rent, health insurance, etc. a blue collar worker is doomed without a union. I was in one before I was promoted to EE and there were lots of problems with it, but the "at the time" decent wage and health insurance kept some people in a little bit of dignity.

Run the numbers for someone in your area with a 30-40 dollar an hour wage. Doomed. No way they can "max" a 401(k) for retirement.
Run the numbers for a person with 4 years of college starting out at 70K and carrying debt from education. Just as bad.
Even a couple with college degrees has it tough.
The only ones that are doing well are those with a sugar family. The rest are in a fight for their lives.

I personally don't want to live in a third world setting with haves and have nots. If anyone is interested I will post some budgets I worked out - I was trying to understand 20-something disengagement.

Cheers/Robert

 

[teepot]

Join the military. Do 20 years. Free health insurance. 20 years of experience gets you a real good job as a contractor.

 

[RobertH3]

Teepot - no more. Those benefits are gone from the military. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself.
I did 21 in the Navy and retired as a CPO - went from Senior Tech to Engineer in civilian-land. Even though I work with other engineers much wealther than I (they had a 21 year head-start while us military were guarding them) I was among the most unsympathetic for the post-m generation until I did the math. Opinions and statistics can lie - numbers in addition and subtraction don't.

Here is the math.
Joe Schmoe graduates college with 30,000 dollars student loan debt (Indiana average)
He gets a job at 65K a year (average)
Taxes on that are app. 14K.
Average Indiana apartment rent is currently 1100-1200 a month. Yikes.
He purchases an inexpensive high MPG compact car at 17K (Hyundai Accent). 400.00 a month for a 4 year loan.
Why a new car? A reliable vehicle is a requirement because of our generation's attendance expectations.

65K
-14K
______
51K
-14.4K annual rent (1200 x 12)
______
36.6K
- 4.8K annual car payments (400 x 12)
______
31.8K
- 4.8K annual student loan payments (400 x 12)
______
27K
- 6K annual medical insurance (500 x 12)
______
21K
-0.3K annual renters insurance (25 x 12)
______
20.7K
-3.6K annual car insurance (he's under 25) - (300 x 12) 400 a month is average, he's a good driver.
_____
17.1K
- 3.6K annual food costs (300 x 12)
_____
13.5K
-3.0K Incidentals (250 x 12) (tires, vehicle repairs, clothing, emergencies, etc.)
_____
10.5K
-3K Possible annual Savings (500.00 a month each)
_____
7.5K
-3K Possible annual 401(k) contribution (250 x 12) note 7.5 years to make a 22.5K standard contribution
_____
4.5K

No hope of a home purchase or "fun stuff" here. This explains why young singles skip health insurance, 401(k) contributions, and savings, doesn't it? It also explains the disaffection and why the younger generation is forming platonic/economic relationships. Two people sharing expenses goes further. Should they have to?
I was doubtful and just thought it was not caring. This is "primed to fail." If you do a blue collar "apprentice-journeyperson" budget, that is an economic revolution in the making, not disaffection. And who will do the blue-collar work if they have to sleep in a car, are hungry, and have to live 2 hours away?
It may also explain the reduction in hobbies - no spare $$ for it.
It isn't cheerful so I won't say cheers.

Robert

 

[bjphoenix]

No hope of a home purchase or "fun stuff" here.

Well you always hope it will get better.
Several of the engineers that start work at my company have bought houses, maybe all of them are in 2-income families though. I think most of them drive used cars, I did when I got out of college. In my 45 year career I've actually owned 2 new cars! 6 months out of college I bought a small house. We were mostly a 1-income family because my wife was still in college. I think relatively speaking engineers coming out of college do better now than back in my day, they're probably even a little better than the average UPS worker.

 

[Five]

Not everyone lives in a Brady Bunch or Family Matters type of world. There are a lot people with far worse on there plate, not by choice but because thats the hand they were dealt. Now they have to make the best out of it.

 

[jderimig]

It is an economic question, not political. Numbers don't lie. A single person working a job like delivery has no chance of anything.


Cheers/Robert

UPS drivers under current contract make $95K average with generous benefits.

Scenario:
Skip college bank $100K instead of paying for tuition and taking on student debt. Keep your driving record clean.
Be UPS driver earning $95K and have Teamsters strike to get you even more.
Marry another UPS driver and how have household income of $190K.
Buy an AMG and 718 Boxster for the misses.

 

[c0c0m0ke]

All true. In the US. As cost of production rose in the US we just exported (with government encouragement) child labor, unsafe work conditions, less than subsistence wages and exploitation to other countries to produce the goods US citizens consume with glee. We love our iPhones don't we?

In modern times we have government labor laws in place to address the sins you have stated? Organized labor is a solution to represent otherwise powerless low skilled labor who don't otherwise fair so well in a free labor market. Also good unions establish worker training and standards in the skilled trades that benefit the employer as long as compensation benefits and work rules are reasonable and dont make the golden goose uncompetitve. Other than that what problems do private sector unions solve?

I believe I stated elsewhere, that unions, provide an apparatus for filing grievances, and to be heard. Unfair business practices; singling out individuals for favorable or unfavorable treatment, come to mind. Unions make sure the company complies to all the details of the contract, so that it is does not take short cuts, or cut costs (not paying overtime when applicable). Often times, members think of something they would like, and they tell their Union rep, who will take that to the Union officers to discuss for consideration the next time contract talks come around. I believe this is how compensation for education/training came about.

Respectfully,

c0c0m0ke

 

[user 30299]

UPS drivers under current contract make $95K average with generous benefits.

Scenario:
Skip college bank $100K instead of paying for tuition and taking on student debt. Keep your driving record clean.
Be UPS driver earning $95K and have Teamsters strike to get you even more.
Marry another UPS driver and how have household income of $190K.
Buy an AMG and 718 Boxster for the misses.

The delivery drivers make anywhere from $29,850 to $60,850. This is of course before taxes.

The above numbers are for the middle 67% of the UPS delivery driver population.

The average hourly for a UPS delivery driver in Ohio is $21.00

The $95K is for the tractor trailer drivers. When you consider they drive all hours of the day & night,
weekends, long hauls, between major cities, etc. - I'd say they deserve that.

You can't bank the $100K since it's presumed debt. That's money you didn't earn but borrowed.

 

[jderimig]

The delivery drivers make anywhere from $29,850 to $60,850. This is of course before taxes.

The above numbers are for the middle 67% of the UPS delivery driver population.

The average hourly for a UPS delivery driver in Ohio is $21.00

The $95K is for the tractor trailer drivers. When you consider they drive all hours of the day & night,
weekends, long hauls, between major cities, etc. - I'd say they deserve that.

You can't bank the $100K since it's presumed debt. That's money you didn't earn but borrowed.

Thanks for the info.
The $100K number comes from working a $20/hr manufacturing/assembly job which are numerous in Ohio and living at home while you build up a nest egg. Not for everyone.

 

[jderimig]

The delivery drivers make anywhere from $29,850 to $60,850. This is of course before taxes.

The above numbers are for the middle 67% of the UPS delivery driver population.

The average hourly for a UPS delivery driver in Ohio is $21.00

The $95K is for the tractor trailer drivers. When you consider they drive all hours of the day & night,
weekends, long hauls, between major cities, etc. - I'd say they deserve that.

You can't bank the $100K since it's presumed debt. That's money you didn't earn but borrowed.

$63K average is not bad compensation for a relatively unskilled position. Is the below histogram all drivers or just delivery? Zip recruiter implies the histogram is delivery. https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/UPS-Truck-Driver-Salary--in-Ohio#Yearly

 

[cls]

$63k/year in CA is poverty level.

 

[Five]

UPS drivers under current contract make $95K average with generous benefits.

Scenario:
Skip college bank $100K instead of paying for tuition and taking on student debt. Keep your driving record clean.
Be UPS driver earning $95K and have Teamsters strike to get you even more.
Marry another UPS driver and how have household income of $190K.
Buy an AMG and 718 Boxster for the misses.

Not every UPS driver has the option to work the hours to make 95. The ones that can have to work 10 hours a day at least for the entire year.

 

[Five]

“Just practicing”

 

[bjphoenix]

$63K average is not bad compensation for a relatively unskilled position.

That's about what engineers in my field make after graduating with a Masters degree.

 

[jderimig]

That's about what engineers in my field make after graduating with a Masters degree.

To be fair, delivery drivers can be productive day 1 on the job. Alot of fresh graduate engineers not so much.

 

[rharshberger]

To be fair, delivery drivers can be productive day 1 on the job. Alot of fresh graduate engineers not so much.

No actually they cannot, it takes weeks to get a driver trained for package delivery, then months for them to hit the production numbers required by package carriers like UPS, if after 6 months those drivers aren't hitting the production numbers, they either thrain some more or are let go and someone else promoted up. I cant speak to much about engineers but I do know transportation, its highly competitve between the carriers (UPS, FedEx, etc) if you cant produce and manage the package deliveries to hit on time status they will find someone who can.

 

[Five]

The delivery drivers make anywhere from $29,850 to $60,850. This is of course before taxes.

The above numbers are for the middle 67% of the UPS delivery driver population.

The average hourly for a UPS delivery driver in Ohio is $21.00

The $95K is for the tractor trailer drivers. When you consider they drive all hours of the day & night,
weekends, long hauls, between major cities, etc. - I'd say they deserve that.

You can't bank the $100K since it's presumed debt. That's money you didn't earn but borrowed.

“Average hourly ups driver” is kinda vague. Is $21/hr the starting rate? If so what do they top out at? Is that for a full time position. In Las Vegas Air drivers/22.3 get max full time driver pay if they leave the yard with any ground packages to deliver. Which is $41.50.
For example a 22.3 or even a part time warehouse worker can shuttle packages to another building and get full drivers pay $41.50 for his entire shift. At the same another driver who is full time and only getting $26/hour.
There is all kinds of fine print that is not mentioned by social media and the news. Sometimes it makes the DRIVERS look like there being mistreated or underpaid but that is not always case.

 

[SkyFire]

I worked for UPS for 10 years.
In 1980 I graduated from Indiana University with a Business Degree in Transportation. My plan was to work in management for a trucking company. Unfortunately, the trucking industry had just been deregulated and small trucking companies were going out of business and large ones weren't hiring
I contacted UPS. They said they weren't hiring or even taking applications. In October that year I saw an ad in the paper for Christmas drivers for UPS. I interviewed with them and said I was ultimately interested in management but would be willing to drive to get started.
They said they would hire me but that when Christmas was over all temporary drivers are laid off. When new drivers were needed only the best Christmas drivers would be considered, but turnover was very low.
So I quit my white collar job to be a Christmas hire at UPS.
When the holiday was over I talked to my manager to see what my chances were of full time employment. He told me I did a good job but because I wasn't a minority or a woman my chances were slim because of government quotas.
A month later UPS called and offered me a full time job as a driver.

There used to be a UPS ad on tv that said, "We run the tightest ship in the shipping business." THAT'S THE TRUTH!
Being a UPS driver is a tough job to say the least!
UPS has an engineering department that applies engineering standards to just about every aspect of their business.
Every 2-3 years an engineering study is done on every delivery route.
Every day each driver's stats are uploaded to the mainframe; number of packages, stops, miles driven, etc.
The following day a report is generated which indicates if driver met or beat the standard.
If you don't meet the standard, they want to know why. (Action is taken if it continues.) If you beat the standard there is an incentive; for example if a driver completes a 9 hour route in 8 hours, he is paid for 9.
I was a 'swing driver' which meant that I covered routes for drivers on vacation, and never had my own route.
In order to meet the MAR (minimum acceptable requirement) every day I never took a lunch break or other break, and hustled my ass off!

As far as the Teamsters go, the only advantage I saw was they negotiated the contract and backed drivers who were in accidents.
UPS has a 3 strikes you're out policy with regards to 'avoidable' accidents. Avoidable is the operative word.
Once while delivering to a remote area in the desert I had a tree branch hit my side mirror causing the glass to break.
They wanted to charge me with an 'avoidable' accident. The Teamster rep got me out of that charge.

At the time I was hired UPS had a strict 'promote from within' policy.
All managers started as loaders or drivers.
The company felt that to effectively manage the business you have to know the business by having done the job.
That has changed.
I was told that if I was willing to drive for 2-3 years they would consider me for management.
After 2 years driving I interviewed for management. It was a spousal interview at the regional office.
They basically told my wife, "You are never going to see your husband, are you ok with that?"
Being a manager was much more demanding than being a driver.

So.....based on my experience, I believe that UPS drivers are well paid but earn every penny!

 

[user 30299]

$63K average is not bad compensation for a relatively unskilled position. Is the below histogram all drivers or just delivery? Zip recruiter implies the histogram is delivery. https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/UPS-Truck-Driver-Salary--in-Ohio#Yearly

View attachment 593792

Thanks for posting the chart. It gives a good presentation of how far & wide the salary can range.

But I would not call the position "relatively unskilled". It does take skill to handle (drive) those lumbering trucks,
deliver packages in all kinds of weather, and make it home safely at the end of the day. Not everyone has a knack
for this type of work.

I work around lots of forklifts (5,000 to 30,000 lb. machines), and there's always the new person that thinks
he (or she) can easily jump on one and run around moving things; forward, backward, left, right, up and down.
How simply is that, right? Until you sit in one and realize you're having to do multiple actions at once. Some
people have the skill, and others will never develop that skill. An operator that can drive these machines
smoothly and efficiently is a person with a worthy skill.

 

[user 30299]

“Average hourly ups driver” is kinda vague. Is $21/hr the starting rate? If so what do they top out at? Is that for a full time position. In Las Vegas Air drivers/22.3 get max full time driver pay if they leave the yard with any ground packages to deliver. Which is $41.50.
For example a 22.3 or even a part time warehouse worker can shuttle packages to another building and get full drivers pay $41.50 for his entire shift. At the same another driver who is full time and only getting $26/hour.
There is all kinds of fine print that is not mentioned by social media and the news. Sometimes it makes the DRIVERS look like there being mistreated or underpaid but that is not always case.

Then why strike?

The decision to strike is not based on social media and the fine print.

 

[user 30299]

Thanks for the info.
The $100K number comes from working a $20/hr manufacturing/assembly job which are numerous in Ohio and living at home while you build up a nest egg. Not for everyone.

Well if that person is going to be living at home - can we at least charge them rent, use of the home internet,
and maybe a cell phone fee (if on the family plan). lol

 

[user 30299]

$63k/year in CA is poverty level.

I have nephews in California that would agree with you on that.

 

[Zeus-cat]

Looks like they reached an agreement. No strike.

 

[Johnly]

Teepot - no more. Those benefits are gone from the military. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself.
I did 21 in the Navy and retired as a CPO - went from Senior Tech to Engineer in civilian-land. Even though I work with other engineers much wealther than I (they had a 21 year head-start while us military were guarding them) I was among the most unsympathetic for the post-m generation until I did the math. Opinions and statistics can lie - numbers in addition and subtraction don't.

Here is the math.
Joe Schmoe graduates college with 30,000 dollars student loan debt (Indiana average)
He gets a job at 65K a year (average)
Taxes on that are app. 14K.
Average Indiana apartment rent is currently 1100-1200 a month. Yikes.
He purchases an inexpensive high MPG compact car at 17K (Hyundai Accent). 400.00 a month for a 4 year loan.
Why a new car? A reliable vehicle is a requirement because of our generation's attendance expectations.

65K
-14K
______
51K
-14.4K annual rent (1200 x 12)
______
36.6K
- 4.8K annual car payments (400 x 12)
______
31.8K
- 4.8K annual student loan payments (400 x 12)
______
27K
- 6K annual medical insurance (500 x 12)
______
21K
-0.3K annual renters insurance (25 x 12)
______
20.7K
-3.6K annual car insurance (he's under 25) - (300 x 12) 400 a month is average, he's a good driver.
_____
17.1K
- 3.6K annual food costs (300 x 12)
_____
13.5K
-3.0K Incidentals (250 x 12) (tires, vehicle repairs, clothing, emergencies, etc.)
_____
10.5K
-3K Possible annual Savings (500.00 a month each)
_____
7.5K
-3K Possible annual 401(k) contribution (250 x 12) note 7.5 years to make a 22.5K standard contribution
_____
4.5K

No hope of a home purchase or "fun stuff" here. This explains why young singles skip health insurance, 401(k) contributions, and savings, doesn't it? It also explains the disaffection and why the younger generation is forming platonic/economic relationships. Two people sharing expenses goes further. Should they have to?
I was doubtful and just thought it was not caring. This is "primed to fail." If you do a blue collar "apprentice-journeyperson" budget, that is an economic revolution in the making, not disaffection. And who will do the blue-collar work if they have to sleep in a car, are hungry, and have to live 2 hours away?
It may also explain the reduction in hobbies - no spare $$ for it.
It isn't cheerful so I won't say cheers.

Robert

Not buying your claim that they need a new car right out of college.
Let someone else take the first years of depreciation on a new car, and buy a quality used vehicle.
That, or car pool with a co-worker until you can find the vehicle you need and can afford.

I don't know of many employers that hire college graduates in their field that don't include a health care or at least a subsidy.
Using a tax exempt medial savings account on the projected $6k annual cost would save $1250 per year.

Most single people I knew in college had roommates to distribute the housing costs, however that was a long time ago.
If a single bedroom apartment is $1200/month ,one could speculate that a two bedroom could be had for $1600/month or thereabouts dropping the monthly housing cost from $1200 to $800 for a savings of $4800 per year with a roommate.

Oh.. and the UPS strike has been averted.

 

[NateB]

I don't know of many employers that hire college graduates in their field that don't include a health care or at least a subsidy.

Technical training, but when I became a paramedic, the health care coverage offered by my employer would have cost about 1/4 of each paycheck for crappy coverage. I was uninsured and wouldn't have been able to afford my own services.

 

[ksaves2]

$63k/year in CA is poverty level.

Don't live in "Kalifornia" then.

 

[boatgeek]

To be fair, delivery drivers can be productive day 1 on the job. Alot of fresh graduate engineers not so much.

No actually they cannot, it takes weeks to get a driver trained for package delivery, then months for them to hit the production numbers required by package carriers like UPS, if after 6 months those drivers aren't hitting the production numbers, they either thrain some more or are let go and someone else promoted up. I cant speak to much about engineers but I do know transportation, its highly competitve between the carriers (UPS, FedEx, etc) if you cant produce and manage the package deliveries to hit on time status they will find someone who can.

In my field, it takes a college grad engineer at least a year before you can really turn them loose without quite a bit of supervision. Even then, they'll need help when tackling something new. They'll typically have at least one internship in industry before we hire them, so they have some practical experience.

A few years ago, there was a billboard on I-90 at the ID-WA border, facing westbound drivers. "If Right to Work is So Great, Why Are You Working in Washington?"

 

[Rob Campbell]

Teepot - no more. Those benefits are gone from the military. Don't take my word for it, see for yourself.
I did 21 in the Navy and retired as a CPO - went from Senior Tech to Engineer in civilian-land. Even though I work with other engineers much wealther than I (they had a 21 year head-start while us military were guarding them) I was among the most unsympathetic for the post-m generation until I did the math. Opinions and statistics can lie - numbers in addition and subtraction don't.

Very true. I'm retired Air Force. I now have to pay for my "free health care". Right now, it isn't much, but it's another broken promise. It get's worse. A Copple of months before I turn 65, I have to register for Medicare Part B and pay Medicare premiums to keep my Tricare. That wasn't part of the deal when I signed on the bottom line and raised my right hand.