Why Copperheads?

[Handeman]

Well, in the anecdote mentioned where the practice was directly responsible for an unsafe launch, I think the concern is justified.

If you're warned about a potentially unsafe practice and you persist and nothing bad happens... that could be called lucky.

If you're warned about a potentially unsafe practice and you persist and something does go wrong... that could be called negligence.

Choose your own path, but follow local club rules.

N

I agree you shouldn't continue unsafe practices, but the anecdote about the wire wrapped on the clips causing an unsafe launch was actually a description of many thing going wrong together.
1. the redcap had too big of vent hole and didn't blow off when the motor lit.
2. the controller wires were not connected to the pad and allowed to lift six feet into the air as the rocket left the rod.
3. the igniter wires were wrapped around the clips and didn't come loose.

Any one of these things could have prevented the rocket from leaving the rail, tilting over and going sideways.

Personally, I like to wrap the igniter around a bolt or something on the pad before I connect it up. This prevents the igniter from lifting with the rocket and ensures the igniter is pulled from the motor by the time the rocket has lifted the height of the motor. If the igniter does hangup on the rocket, the rocket can't leave the rod/rail.

 

[MarkII]

Personally, I like to wrap the igniter around a bolt or something on the pad before I connect it up. This prevents the igniter from lifting with the rocket and ensures the igniter is pulled from the motor by the time the rocket has lifted the height of the motor. If the igniter does hangup on the rocket, the rocket can't leave the rod/rail.

But doesn't that short the igniter out? (I don't know - I'm just asking.) Obviously you can't anchor down a Copperhead in that manner. I'm agnostic about the issue of wrapping the igniter leads around the clips. I have never felt a need to do that in any of my launches, and I have never seen anyone else do it. But I probably haven't been igniting the same kinds of motors that you have.

Radio Shack clips are coper plated steel. The copper is gone in a short time and then they rust horribly. #34C clips are solid copper and will not "rust". They will corrode and need to be cleaned. Cleaning after a launch prevents the damage that you would experience if you store them with exhaust crud left on them.

I have had the same Radio Shack microclips on the two-lead extension for my launch controller for two years; they are in their third launch season. Yes, the copper plating is almost all gone (there is still a little on the inside surfaces of the jaws where they contact the igniter), but the clips are shiny with no signs of pitting. The springs in the jaws work just as well as ever and they grip the igniter leads just fine. These seem to be quality clips, judging from my experience with them. I have used them in dozens, but not hundreds (or thousands) of launches of BP motors. I can't say how they would have fared if many of those launches had been with AP motors, though, or if I had subjected them to much heavier use. I also don't know anything about the #34C clips are that you mentioned. Where would I find this type? Finally, I completely agree with your comments about regularly cleaning the clips.

MarkII

 

[RangerStl]

I agree you shouldn't continue unsafe practices, but the anecdote about the wire wrapped on the clips causing an unsafe launch was actually a description of many thing going wrong together.
1. the redcap had too big of vent hole and didn't blow off when the motor lit.
2. the controller wires were not connected to the pad and allowed to lift six feet into the air as the rocket left the rod.
3. the igniter wires were wrapped around the clips and didn't come loose.

Any one of these things could have prevented the rocket from leaving the rail, tilting over and going sideways.

Personally, I like to wrap the igniter around a bolt or something on the pad before I connect it up. This prevents the igniter from lifting with the rocket and ensures the igniter is pulled from the motor by the time the rocket has lifted the height of the motor. If the igniter does hangup on the rocket, the rocket can't leave the rod/rail.

You're right. #2 and #3 are easiest to predict and control. Staking the wires down in the anecdotal case (addressing #2) would still allow the rocket to be firmly anchored to the ground and not leave the rod, one hopes. There is still no guarantee that the wires would not let go as the rocket was reaching end of its thrust and still cause the same type of low angle unsafe flight.

Not wrapping the leads (addressing #3) would ensure that the rocket would not be restrained by the wires at all and seems to be the easiest to implement. I'm just saying...

If necessary I can wear an Army surplus Flak jacket and ballistic helmet to the launch.

 

[The EGE]

I've had pretty good luck with copperheads. One failure with a D21 on my first attempt, but otherwise perfect ignitions with 2x D15T, 2xE18W, and 1x F23FJ.

I've gone 3/3 on First Fires with a G78G and 2xH165, and 2/2 with Q2G2s with a D21 and an E30.

I prefer the leaded igniters, especially with the F23s and reloads which have very small slots. I'd pay more for a leaded igniter, but not much.

 

[Tom W]

I've had pretty good luck with copperheads. One failure with a D21 on my first attempt, but otherwise perfect ignitions with 2x D15T, 2xE18W, and 1x F23FJ.

I've gone 3/3 on First Fires with a G78G and 2xH165, and 2/2 with Q2G2s with a D21 and an E30.

I prefer the leaded igniters, especially with the F23s and reloads which have very small slots. I'd pay more for a leaded igniter, but not much.

I had a Copperhead that must have been shorted as it checked continuity but did not light a D13 RMS last month.

I thought about putting in a leaded igniter that Aerotech supplies with their SU D10's so I wouldn't have to take the rear closure off. It fit but the wires were a little snug in the nozzle and thought it was best to use another Copperhead as I wasn't confident that the motor was going to spit the wire leads on ignition.

The pyrogen being tight in the slot is one thing, the wires being tight in the nozzle is another.

I actually would have thought the D13 would have had a larger nozzle than the SU D10 but I've never had a problem slipping the wired igniters into the D10's. I even tried a different igniter but it was tight in the D13 RMS too.

I installed another Copperhead and it lit fine.

Tom

 

[The EGE]

The F23FJ is especially bad with the copperheads. The c-slot is tiny to begin with and swells a bit with heat and humidity. I could not insert the supplied igniter without using a mini screwdriver to widen the slot just a hair.

The D21 was just a first-time stupid mistake; it wasn't in all the way and failed to ignite it.

The D15 and E18 RMS loads I've used have wide c-slots and insertion of the Copperheads was easy. F32Ts look somewhere in between. Having the plastic cap on the reloadable motors also helps keep the igniter in.

 

[jcDerRedMax]

Personally, I like to wrap the igniter around a bolt or something on the pad before I connect it up. This prevents the igniter from lifting with the rocket and ensures the igniter is pulled from the motor by the time the rocket has lifted the height of the motor. If the igniter does hangup on the rocket, the rocket can't leave the rod/rail.

I'm trying to remember at which Plasterblaster the rocket took the launch pad in a nice arc, roughly the length of the controller wires, into the parking lot, hitting a pickup truck.

 

[Handeman]

I'm trying to remember at which Plasterblaster the rocket took the launch pad in a nice arc, roughly the length of the controller wires, into the parking lot, hitting a pickup truck.

That would be a sight to see. Must have been a big motor and a light pad. I'm not sure any of the pads I fly hpr off of can be lifted by the size motors that are flown off of them. I did see a K hybrid melt a 2.5" x 4" aluminum square tube in half when the buttons stuck on the rail. Didn't lift the pat though.

 

[Handeman]

I had a Copperhead that must have been shorted as it checked continuity but did not light a D13 RMS last month.

I thought about putting in a leaded igniter that Aerotech supplies with their SU D10's so I wouldn't have to take the rear closure off. It fit but the wires were a little snug in the nozzle and thought it was best to use another Copperhead as I wasn't confident that the motor was going to spit the wire leads on ignition.

The pyrogen being tight in the slot is one thing, the wires being tight in the nozzle is another.

I actually would have thought the D13 would have had a larger nozzle than the SU D10 but I've never had a problem slipping the wired igniters into the D10's. I even tried a different igniter but it was tight in the D13 RMS too.

I installed another Copperhead and it lit fine.

Tom

The was good thinking Tom. I watched someone use a wire type igniter in a24/40 case because "crapperheads are NO Good!". It got up one or two inches when the motor catoed because the wire plugged the nozzle.

 

[luke strawwalker]

The guys in our club (Challenger 498) have had pretty good luck with Copperheads using their particular method. They heat the bare end opposite the pyrogen with a cigarette lighter, and peel the foil layers apart about 1/3 the length of the ignitor, then install it in the motor. At the pad, they hook them up using the gator clips installed on the club launcher. They get a good ignition most of the time that way.

I fly LPR so I use my own 12V car jumper pack and modded Estes Pola-Pulse or Solar Launcher and my own pad, but when I finally break down and get some MPR APCP, that's the method I'm probably going to use, since it seems to work well. New guys using the Copperheads as-is seem to have a LOT more problems, probably 50-75% reliability compared with probably 90% or better using the 'seperated ends' method.

YMMV... OL JR

 

[Pantherjon]

The guys in our club (Challenger 498) have had pretty good luck with Copperheads using their particular method. They heat the bare end opposite the pyrogen with a cigarette lighter, and peel the foil layers apart about 1/3 the length of the ignitor, then install it in the motor. At the pad, they hook them up using the gator clips installed on the club launcher. They get a good ignition most of the time that way.

I guess I must be lucky with copperheads I have lit 100% of the ones I have used..I have done what JR describes here a few times with good success..Mainly cause I heard about it and wanted to try it and didn't want to muss with putting the little tape strips on the ignitor..Oh, and I used a Quest Q2G2 ignitor at the last launch to light an E24 successfully!

 

[Handeman]

The guys in our club (Challenger 498) have had pretty good luck with Copperheads using their particular method. They heat the bare end opposite the pyrogen with a cigarette lighter, and peel the foil layers apart about 1/3 the length of the ignitor, then install it in the motor. At the pad, they hook them up using the gator clips installed on the club launcher. They get a good ignition most of the time that way.

I fly LPR so I use my own 12V car jumper pack and modded Estes Pola-Pulse or Solar Launcher and my own pad, but when I finally break down and get some MPR APCP, that's the method I'm probably going to use, since it seems to work well. New guys using the Copperheads as-is seem to have a LOT more problems, probably 50-75% reliability compared with probably 90% or better using the 'seperated ends' method.

YMMV... OL JR

That has not been my experience with copperheads. I've never had one that didn't light. There have been 4 or 5 that didn't ignite the motor, but that's been since 2003.

 

[garydogwood]

i have good results using copperheads once i started scuffing up the propellant to remove any oxidization; i also scrape the edge of the copperhead leads to remove any tiny shorts. i ocassionally have one that doesn't ignite the motor. 9 times out of 10 i just re-scuff the propellent in the slot of the motor and the motor ignites with the next try.

i had (and still have) a bunch of copperheads laying around since i have been using quickbursts for the last several years. i recently decided to try to use up some of the copperheads and with the above techniques, i have fairly consistent success. todays launch was 100% ignition out of 4 reloads. i do like to the near 100% security of having my quickburst igniters just in case.

i don't use the copperhead specific igniter. i just use the regular small flattened alligator clips and wrap tape around one end or slide a piece of fuel tubing over one side of the clip.

gw

 

[als57]

At the launch yesterday the vendor handed me a pre vintage 2000 or so H128W reload kit. It came with a Copperhead. A really long one. Its been long enough that I forgot they used to sell HPR reloads with Copperheads.

After getting the RMS+ delay components and swapping a Quickburst igniter for the Copperhead it flew perfectly.

As a mater of fact it lit and came up to pressure as fast as a brand new reload. Don't know where Ken came up with this vintage load but it flew just fine.

Al

 

[Pantherjon]

Ken must have found that reload in a corner of his trailer!:roll: Glad that it worked well for you Al! :clap:

 

[als57]

Probably out lasted 2 or 3 trailers. I see Mar 16 1999 stamped on the instruction sheet.:y:

Al

 

[deandome]

Well, I'm guessing a copperhead is the way to go with the F32T single-use...

I helped a novice-buddy prepare for a scout launch he went to. I figured copperheads would be too tricky/fussy without someone there who knew how to finesse them, so he got some FirstFire Jrs.

He knew the risks (I said it was too much, but he wanted 'big'), and lost his Executioner to excess drift after a great takeoff. He had another F32T, so he set it up in someone else's Mean Machine....20 feet up and BLAMMO...a dramatic CATO that apparantly was a huge crowd-pleaser.

I figure it had to have been the ignitor getting jammed in the small nozzle orifice...it was a pretty tight fit when we checked things out before his launch.

Just goes to show that, opposed to my initial belief that they existed for AT to save $$, they indeed are better suited to certain motors.

 

[MysticalRockets]

To be honest, I've flown both Copperheads and First Fire's. I was always told "Get First Fire's. Copperheads really suck. You'll have nothing but problems with them." and I would always hear people complain about Copperheads.

I have personally found that the failure rate of a Copperhead, when used correctly, is about the same as First Fire or even Estes. I have not noticed any difference. And I don't use the special Aerotech clip either. I use tape.

I've found that Copperheads actually work better in smaller sized motors, like 18mm and 24mm, than First Fire because there is so much ignition material built up on the First Fire that it will not fit into the motor. Copperheads almost always will.

Just my opinion. Your results may vary. Void where prohibited. Contest rules are posted on our website at www.readthefineprintyoudork.com.