So what is the inside story of why Estes stopped MPR?

[kuririn]

Is it the case that the absurd costs for a consumer to ship anything to Hawaii actually favor consolidated commercial shipments feeding old-fashioned local distribution?

Possibly.
I found an online retailer that had 99 old Estes F26 motors in stock at a discounted price.
Comes to find out that they could only be shipped via FedEx and there is only FedEx Air to Hawaii, no ground shipment via boat. I asked why not ship with USPS Parcel Select and he said that they could not do that legally.
Even though Estes has sent me their F15 bulk pack via USPS Parcel Select (I think it's called Ground Advantage now).
So I wound up passing.

 

[bad_idea]

a few are marginal on their motors.

Yes, and the bigger 3" Pro Series models are beginning to concern me.

In quick-and-dirty sims I ran of the GG at stock weight (16.5 oz.), OpenRocket shows thrust-to-weight of barely 5:1 and falling fast by the time it clears a decent length rod on an F15, and that's assuming that the weight Estes gives for the GG is loaded weight. The DBRM isn't much better.

I suspect that many builds of the GG and some of the DBRM will be at or below the threshold of an RSO call at a Tripoli launch (5:1 TTW) when flying on an Estes 29mm motor. NAR's RSO guidelines mention a formula that works out to 5.6:1, which is even more punitive, though they also mention the manufacturer's max weight ratings for the motor, and those of Estes are hugely optimistic (e.g., 21 oz. for the F15-4, which is 4.3:1 at max thrust and 2.5:1 at average thrust).

Needless to say, I'm not looking forward to RSO-ing a DBRM or GG flying on an Estes 29. The punchier and lighter (even with adapter) E12 is a better motor for them, but those rockets really need clusters or composites.

Then Estes arrived at the point now where we have PSII kits using BT-60, BT-80 and 3" diameter body tubes. Lighter weight/mass kits that can fly better on the E16 & F15 motors. Perhaps there will be some new PSII kits in the future using BT-70 tubes(?).

BT70 would be a good mix of size and performance for sport flying on the Estes 29mm motors. Big enough to be kept in view and recovered without a tracker, small enough to fly well on a modest E or F motor like the E16 or F15.

The business challenge with composite motors is the need for hand assembly, though. Mabel and her ancestors don't need lunch breaks, paychecks, health care, and days off. Hard to beat that sort of efficiency.

Wasn't there a rumor some years back that Estes were working on a powdered composite mix that could be loaded by Mabel?

 

[Art Upton]

Possibly.
I found an online retailer that had 99 old Estes F26 motors in stock at a discounted price.
Comes to find out that they could only be shipped via FedEx and there is only FedEx Air to Hawaii, no ground shipment via boat. I asked why not ship with USPS Parcel Select and he said that they could not do that legally.
Even though Estes has sent me their F15 bulk pack via USPS Parcel Select (I think it's called Ground Advantage now).
So I wound up passing.

Seems I also found them yesterday after you posted this.

https://csrocketry.com/rocket-motor...29mm/estesf26-6fj-black-max-rocket-motor.html

 

[kuririn]

Seems I also found them yesterday after you posted this.

Did you order the motors?

 

[Art Upton]

Did you order the motors?

Reply no, I have one still and the hazmat ground was still too much for me. If the motor was originally packaged for the new rules, it might even be hazmat free via UPS.

The propellent weight is 43grams so that is why it could not be sent USPS [max 30grams] .

But new rules IF the packaging is done correctly would "seem" that is a hazmat free via UPS or even maybe FedEx.

 

[Art Upton]

Reply no, I have one still and the hazmat ground was still too much for me. If the motor was originally packaged for the new rules, it might even be hazmat free via UPS.

The propellent weight is 43grams so that is why it could not be sent USPS [max 30grams] .

But new rules IF the packaging is done correctly would "seem" that is a hazmat free via UPS or even maybe FedEx.

It may get deeper than that. BMS lists the AT F26 as no HAZ , but this discounted listing is for an Estes F26 and that due to certain issues might not qualify?

So many rules to keep up on...

 

[SolarYellow]

Having corresponded with both retailers, I think it's different sellers interpreting the same rules differently.

Everyone has to read the rule book, possibly consult with their attorneys, and make their own decisions.

 

[Initiator001]

<snip>

Wasn't there a rumor some years back that Estes were working on a powdered composite mix that could be loaded by Mabel?

Yes.

I believe Scott Dixon of Vulcan Systems was involved.

Pressing composite propellant is a whole different process than casting propellant.
If it had been practical to do this with little modification to the Mabel machines it probably would have been tried.
I think the fact that it was not done speaks to the viability of the process.

 

[Scott_650]

Yes, and the bigger 3" Pro Series models are beginning to concern me.

In quick-and-dirty sims I ran of the GG at stock weight (16.5 oz.), OpenRocket shows thrust-to-weight of barely 5:1 and falling fast by the time it clears a decent length rod on an F15, and that's assuming that the weight Estes gives for the GG is loaded weight. The DBRM isn't much better.

I suspect that many builds of the GG and some of the DBRM will be at or below the threshold of an RSO call at a Tripoli launch (5:1 TTW) when flying on an Estes 29mm motor. NAR's RSO guidelines mention a formula that works out to 5.6:1, which is even more punitive, though they also mention the manufacturer's max weight ratings for the motor, and those of Estes are hugely optimistic (e.g., 21 oz. for the F15-4, which is 4.3:1 at max thrust and 2.5:1 at average thrust).

Needless to say, I'm not looking forward to RSO-ing a DBRM or GG flying on an Estes 29. The punchier and lighter (even with adapter) E12 is a better motor for them, but those rockets really need clusters or composites.

I’ve successfully flown my Ventris, DBRM, Mammoth, pre-modded Leviathan (it’s since been stretched with an added payload bay), and Trajector many times on F15s. The Ventris flight was almost text book - straight up with ejection just after apogee. The flights of the bigger rockets were on still, low wind days, off the club’s rail but I park flew my Mammoth many times over F15s off my own launch rod. The Ventris was built totally per the instructions with only the original parts except a longer, though still elastic, still trifold mounted, shock cord. My DBRM has light ply rings and fins courtesy of the laser cutter at the library’s maker space - heavier than the original parts but not all that much. My GG finished weight was just under the estimated weight after I primered it but now with the pile of paint I put on trying to get a good yellow it’s a bit over - might need to sand it down when the weather warms up and try again.

 

[Initiator001]

Been awhile since we’ve had some mid-2010s PSII nostalgia!

Initiator001 asks the question I’ve pondered more than once - where are the BT70 based kits? I snagged a BT70 kit from now closed up Rocketry Works and it was a fun build. Seems like BT70 tubes would be a natural fit for the current PSII line.

Estes has a new nose cone for BT-70 body tube.

While it is only available in a PSII parts kit or a (T)ARC parts assortment (I forget which) I was told that Estes usually will use a molded part in more than one product.

Stay tuned...

 

[Scott_650]

Estes has a new nose cone for BT-70 body tube.

While it is only available in a PSII parts kit or a (T)ARC parts assortment (I forget which) I was told that Estes usually will use a molded part in more than one product.

Stay tuned...

I bought a PSII Parts Assortment during the Christmas sale. The PNC-70 cone is ok - nicely molded but the shape doesn’t really push my buttons. Still a great addition and I’m deciding just how I want to use it and the parts for my next project. I wish the 70/80 reducer was similar to the extra long one that came in the old TARC parts kit - I think it was from the Centuri sourced egglofter - but 70/80 reducer is a nicely molded part too and a great addition to their available parts.

 

[AToM65]

And Hobby Lobby is limited in that as well. My local HL sells E12-4 and E12-6. They don't have E12-8 which I need for a couple of the cluster rockets I fly. I inquired of the manager if they could order different delays/motors and he said NO. If they don't have a SKU for it, they can't order it.

I'd think they could save some money by implementing an inventory control system. Have you ever noticed when you checkout at HL? They hand-key all the prices in and they don't scan codes. They have no idea what they are selling in realtime. They have to do inventory of EVERYTHING in that store to know what they need to reorder. There is a cost to implementing an inventory control system, but most retailers usually determine it is worth the cost.

Curious - does HL ever put motors on sale? I usually wait in the car when my wife needs to stop - but probably should go check out what they have.

 

[Scott_650]

Curious - does HL ever put motors on sale? I usually wait in the car when my wife needs to stop - but probably should go check out what they have.

In the last 4-5 years none of the three HL’s (in our old town they changed location) I’ve shopped at have had motors on sale. Last time I can recall motors being on sale was a bulk pack box of A8s were discounted 25% but that was years ago. There was a time, post Hobbico bankruptcy maybe, where our local HL had Estes stuff on clearance.

I tend to use the website on their included shipping weekends to stock up on E12s since they rarely have more than 3-4 packs on the shelf.

 

[AToM65]

In the last 4-5 years none of the three HL’s (in our old town they changed location) I’ve shopped at have had motors on sale. Last time I can recall motors being on sale was a bulk pack box of A8s were discounted 25% but that was years ago. There was a time, post Hobbico bankruptcy maybe, where our local HL had Estes stuff on clearance.

I tend to use the website on their included shipping weekends to stock up on E12s since they rarely have more than 3-4 packs on the shelf.

Thanks - I didn't know if they ever put the entire category of "toys" on sale -

 

[SolarYellow]

My understanding is anything at HL with the "Your Price" or whatever the tag is on all the rocket stuff is basically immune to any ordinary sales or discounts.

I still cruise the clearance aisle when I go through. Picked up a blue Estes E-launcher for $4 last time. Returned with a damaged box but obviously unused.

 

[Art Upton]

My understanding is anything at HL with the "Your Price" or whatever the tag is on all the rocket stuff is basically immune to any ordinary sales or discounts.

I still cruise the clearance aisle when I go through. Picked up a blue Estes E-launcher for $4 last time. Returned with a damaged box but obviously unused.

Correct , but those yellow tags on Engines are almost the same to a few cents as AC supply prices.

 

[SolarYellow]

Correct , but those yellow tags on Engines are almost the same to a few cents as AC supply prices.

Yeah, but I sure wish HL carried more SKUs of motors. About all they have that I'm interested in is a couple Ts, B6-6, C6-0 and C6-7. I really wish they had 24mm -0s, A3-6T, A8-5, D12-7, and E12-8.

 

[rharshberger]

Yeah, but I sure wish HL carried more SKUs of motors. About all they have that I'm interested in is a couple Ts, B6-6, C6-0 and C6-7. I really wish they had 24mm -0s, A3-6T, A8-5, D12-7, and E12-8.

The only SKU's for motors are almost exclusively limited to the motors that are recommended for the kits that they sell. We the Hobbyist are not their target customer, joe public looking for a STEM toy for their Cub Scout or student is, we just happen to peruse the aisles and buy stuff. I have not purchased a rocket a HL in over 2 years unless its been something I just needed for parts or wanted another one of since their lineup is pretty much static as in zero changes whether I go to my local HL the one 75 miles away or the ones 150 miles away...same kit selection same motor selection...meh.

 

[ghughes1138]

Yes.

I believe Scott Dixon of Vulcan Systems was involved.

Pressing composite propellant is a whole different process than casting propellant.
If it had been practical to do this with little modification to the Mabel machines it probably would have been tried.
I think the fact that it was not done speaks to the viability of the process.

Yes. I found a couple of patent applications from 2004 and 2006 for pressable composite propellants, specifically Vulcanite(tm) EB-75. Inventors were Scott Dixon, Barry Tunick and Ed Brown. Assigned to Estes-Cox.

gary