So what is the inside story of why Estes stopped MPR?

[majordude]

Why did they sport producing BP and composite motors? Hobby Lobby misses me!

 

[dhbarr]

Estes still makes E & F last time I looked. The Estes-branded composites were manufactured by Aerotech IIRC. Hobby Lobby seems to have shrunk their rocket aisle, which suggests to me they weren't making as much money as they would have liked

 

[majordude]

Only BP and limited at that: https://estesrockets.com/collections/xl-29mm

 

[burkefj]

They want to stick to what they can mfg themselves in house. They won't make a kit that won't work with their own motors either, at least work on paper, a few are marginal on their motors.

 

[DocSeuss]

Why did they sport producing BP and composite motors? Hobby Lobby misses me!

The composite motors were just rebadged from Aerotech, weren't they? I assume they didn't make enough money on that. Maybe one day Estes gets into composites of their own, but I'm betting they don't really want to make kits that use engines they don't make, so Es and Fs in BP is as big as they're willing to go, I guess.

 

[Initiator001]

The inside story I heard was that the new owners of Estes at the time (Hobbico/Great Planes) had expectations that the original Pro Series II kits would sell in volumes comparable to, say, an Alpha. When that didn't happen and the fact that they were buying motors from AeroTech to relabel which had lower profit margins Estes management changed the focus of the PSII series. Then came the PSII E2X models and the E16/F15 motors made by/at Estes. Those models stayed in the product line longer. Then Estes arrived at the point now where we have PSII kits using BT-60, BT-80 and 3" diameter body tubes. Lighter weight/mass kits that can fly better on the E16 & F15 motors. Perhaps there will be some new PSII kits in the future using BT-70 tubes(?).

 

[Scott_650]

Been awhile since we’ve had some mid-2010s PSII nostalgia!

Initiator001 asks the question I’ve pondered more than once - where are the BT70 based kits? I snagged a BT70 kit from now closed up Rocketry Works and it was a fun build. Seems like BT70 tubes would be a natural fit for the current PSII line.

 

[dhbarr]

Been awhile since we’ve had some mid-2010s PSII nostalgia!

Initiator001 asks the question I’ve pondered more than once - where are the BT70 based kits? I snagged a BT70 kit from now closed up Rocketry Works and it was a fun build. Seems like BT70 tubes would be a natural fit for the current PSII line.

Finally putting out a 29mm nosecone gives me some hope in this regard.

 

[prfesser]

Only BP and limited at that: https://estesrockets.com/collections/xl-29mm

Federal law requires that a motor containing more than 62.5 g of BP requires a permit, storage, etc. ad nauseum. That limits BP motors to F impulse.

All Estes mid-power motors (and all of the rest except the C5, I think) are "cored endburners" with a dimple in the propellant to get that spike at liftoff. There's little that can be done to change the burn properties. It took quite a while for the 29mm BP motors to be perfected enough to bring them to market.

APCP motors are assembled rather than pressed like BP. It's not hard to use a different-sized nozzle, different core, etc. for different characteristics.

 

[dpower]

Why did they sport producing BP and composite motors? Hobby Lobby misses me!

FWIW, Estes has a larger selection of BP motors available now than anytime in their history. And they never produced composite motors, as has been pointed out. (And really, where does MPR start? D12? 2xD12 cluster? E12?)

1/4A3
1/2A3
A3
A10
1/2A6
A8
B4
B6
C5
C6
C11
D12
E12
E16
F15

And the delays, oh my! We even have A3-2 and A3-6 back!

 

[rharshberger]

FWIW, Estes has a larger selection of BP motors available now than anytime in their history. And they never produced composite motors, as has been pointed out. (And really, where does MPR start? D12? 2xD12 cluster? E12?)

1/4A3
1/2A3
A3
A10
1/2A6
A8
B4
B6
C5
C6
C11
D12
E12
E16
F15

And the delays, oh my! We even have A3-2 and A3-6 back!

MPR has been traditionally and commercially the motors falling in the E-F-G impulse ranges, though there are some that due to various regulations have been restricted to use by HPR certified fliers like the CTI F240 Vmax (fun little motor)....its still a F motor (MPR) but it requires a L1 certification to fly it due to its greater than 80ns of thrust. MPR is a term we in the hobby have come up with as regulations only cover Model and High Power Rocketry (FAR101, NFPAs, etc, none of which call out MPR).

 

[samb]

@majordude Is the issue really “lack of availability at Hobby Lobby” ? I did enjoy being able to get E16s and F15s there and have purchased less of those since that source went away.

 

[James Duffy]

FWIW, Estes has a larger selection of BP motors available now than anytime in their history. And they never produced composite motors, as has been pointed out.

The NCR F62 motors were produced in-house at Estes. One might assume that the tooling might still be lying about.

The business challenge with composite motors is the need for hand assembly, though. Mabel and her ancestors don't need lunch breaks, paychecks, health care, and days off. Hard to beat that sort of efficiency.

 

[Scott_650]

@majordude Is the issue really “lack of availability at Hobby Lobby” ? I did enjoy being able to get E16s and F15s there and have purchased less of those since that source went away.

HL hasn’t stocked Estes PSII stuff for several years. They only stock motors that fit the kits they sell, which still includes 24mm E12s for the moment, so the availability of motors has decreased along with the kits they stock. And each store can choose to have lower numbers of kits/motors for sale - checking their website will show how they’ve reduced the Estes products they carry. If I can’t make to our local store I take advantage of their periodic included shipping - usually happens over a weekend but not always. Great way to stock up on E12s, C6s, B4s…

 

[Spacedog49Krell]

MPR has been traditionally and commercially the motors falling in the E-F-G impulse ranges, though there are some that due to various regulations have been restricted to use by HPR certified fliers like the CTI F240 Vmax (fun little motor)....its still a F motor (MPR) but it requires a L1 certification to fly it due to its greater than 80ns of thrust. MPR is a term we in the hobby have come up with as regulations only cover Model and High Power Rocketry (FAR101, NFPAs, etc, none of which call out MPR).

Reminds me of the PlasmaJet 18mmx70mm F175 motors demo'd for Vern at NARAM-20 in 1978. It required advanced construction skills and G-10 or phenolic linen body tubes to withstand the acceleration and supersonic flight. A fun motor, but not a practical sales item for a hobby flier.

 

[SolarYellow]

MPR generally means E, F, and G motors. 24mm Es have been going strong. There are now 29mm Es and Fs. And as pointed out above, that's likely all that's going to be practical.

"Why did Estes stop selling composite motors?" is a different question. The answer is simple.

The pricing structure around pretty much any hobby good is

Mfr.->Distributor->Hobby Shop->Hobbyist
or
Mfr.->Distributor/Direct Retailer->Hobbyist (with discount)

Each step of that chain has a percentage increase in price.

Now try this:

Mfr.->Estes->Distributor->Hobby Shop->Hobbyist
or
Mfr.->Estes->Distributor/Direct Retailer->Hobbyist (with discount)

The typical logic of even trying would go something along the lines of Estes has a so much bigger distribution footprint that the total sales will be much, much greater and it will be worthwhile for the Mfr. to make a little less margin on a much bigger pie. However, that always pans out as wishful thinking in the end, and the market speaks. When the MSRP of the part gets as high as it does with APCP motors, consumers are motivated to do the work to stop being "low-information buyers" and figure out the most cost-effective ways to buy them. And also, when something is the "advanced" version of the product, the process of becoming someone who is "qualified" to use it tends to grow people out of being "low information" in any case. The market speaks, and the value added to the product by putting an Estes label on it instead of an AeroTech label is not enough to support the presence of Estes in the distribution chain.

Simple economics.

I lived this situation for several years in a previous life and different world in which my employer was the Estes in that picture. We always wanted to make it work and never could.

 

[mr. bob]

Maybe my mind is fading as it was a while ago but didnt the Estes North Coast motors go into production for a short period? I think they were 28mm so you couldnt use standard 29mm motors in NC kits unless you changed the motor tube.

 

[2-0turbo]

HL hasn’t stocked Estes PSII stuff for several years. They only stock motors that fit the kits they sell, which still includes 24mm E12s for the moment, so the availability of motors has decreased along with the kits they stock. And each store can choose to have lower numbers of kits/motors for sale - checking their website will show how they’ve reduced the Estes products they carry. If I can’t make to our local store I take advantage of their periodic included shipping - usually happens over a weekend but not always. Great way to stock up on E12s, C6s, B4s…

And Hobby Lobby is limited in that as well. My local HL sells E12-4 and E12-6. They don't have E12-8 which I need for a couple of the cluster rockets I fly. I inquired of the manager if they could order different delays/motors and he said NO. If they don't have a SKU for it, they can't order it.

I'd think they could save some money by implementing an inventory control system. Have you ever noticed when you checkout at HL? They hand-key all the prices in and they don't scan codes. They have no idea what they are selling in realtime. They have to do inventory of EVERYTHING in that store to know what they need to reorder. There is a cost to implementing an inventory control system, but most retailers usually determine it is worth the cost.

 

[GuyNoir]

Mabel and her ancestors don't need lunch breaks, paychecks, health care, and days off. Hard to beat that sort of efficiency.

Mable trades capital for labor and that trade makes the Estes black powder motors a remarkable bargain for us rocketeers.

 

[Antares JS]

I'd think they could save some money by implementing an inventory control system. Have you ever noticed when you checkout at HL? They hand-key all the prices in and they don't scan codes. They have no idea what they are selling in realtime. They have to do inventory of EVERYTHING in that store to know what they need to reorder. There is a cost to implementing an inventory control system, but most retailers usually determine it is worth the cost.

They claim that their manual check-out "provides a more human experience," but there are very believable rumors that the people at the top of Hobby Lobby buy into the belief that bar codes are or have to do with the mark of the beast.

 

[Alan15578]

They claim that their manual check-out "provides a more human experience," but there are very believable rumors that the people at the top of Hobby Lobby buy into the belief that bar codes are or have to do with the mark of the beast.

How do they really feel about products made from brimstone?

 

[NOLA_BAR]

They claim that their manual check-out "provides a more human experience," but there are very believable rumors that the people at the top of Hobby Lobby buy into the belief that bar codes are or have to do with the mark of the beast.

Hell on earth…

Trying to checkout in HL with only one lane and a dozen people in front of you with baskets full of fake floral stuff!

 

[Antares JS]

Hell on earth…

Trying to checkout in HL with only one lane and a dozen people in front of you with baskets full of floral stuff!

That's awful, but have you ever entered a long, complicated password into a roku streaming app using only the direction pad on the remote, and then gotten it wrong and had to start over?

I'm convinced that demons would sit people down and make them do that for all eternity.

 

[NOLA_BAR]

That's awful, but have you ever entered a long, complicated password into a roku streaming app using only the direction pad on the remote, and then gotten it wrong and had to start over?

I'm convinced that demons would sit people down and make them do that for all eternity.

LOL, you lost me at "roku"! But seriously, yes I do know about and hate those things. My 13 year old handles the streaming remote. Kid tech is wonderful!

 

[Bill S]

That's awful, but have you ever entered a long, complicated password into a roku streaming app using only the direction pad on the remote, and then gotten it wrong and had to start over?

I'm convinced that demons would sit people down and make them do that for all eternity.

I've had that happen several times. Nightmare indeed. Nearly as bad as websites that require a long complicated password, but refuse to show what I just typed for "security". No, what usually happens is that I make an mistake, and can't go back to correct the one wrong character, and have to start all over again. I resorted to having a password/username file on my computer that I can cut and paste from due to the sheer number of them, plus the impossibility of remembering them all. Of course they all have to be unique and not re-used, I get that, but wow...

 

[neil_w]

I've had that happen several times. Nightmare indeed. Nearly as bad as websites that require a long complicated password, but refuse to show what I just typed for "security". No, what usually happens is that I make an mistake, and can't go back to correct the one wrong character, and have to start all over again. I resorted to having a password/username file on my computer that I can cut and paste from due to the sheer number of them, plus the impossibility of remembering them all. Of course they all have to be unique and not re-used, I get that, but wow...

I know you know this, but you really shouldn't have a text file with your passwords. A password manager will solve this problem for you the right way (I use 1Password and have been generally happy with it).

 

[Initiator001]

The NCR F62 motors were produced in-house at Estes. One might assume that the tooling might still be lying about.

The business challenge with composite motors is the need for hand assembly, though. Mabel and her ancestors don't need lunch breaks, paychecks, health care, and days off. Hard to beat that sort of efficiency.

The NCR DarkStar motors were assembled at Estes but the propellant was made by Vulcan Systems.

The tooling to make the molded casing and bulkheads is/was probably offsite and with a third party (China?).

 

[kuririn]

Why did they sport producing BP and composite motors? Hobby Lobby misses me!

From what I understand there was a period when retailers were out of the 29mm motors. I have read that it was due to Estes retooling or refurbishing their 29mm motor making machines. They have been producing and retailers have been stocking the E16 and F15 motors for some time now.
My local hobby shops have a good selection in stock.
As others have said, Estes discontinued selling the rebranded Aerotech motors some years ago.
As well as discontinuing kits that cannot be flown on Estes BP motors.
I suspect that when people found out they could buy the same motors from Aerotech for a few dollars less then the Estes branded composites tanked. Also Estes did not include the igniters with their composite motors. Needed to buy that separately.
BTW one local hobby shop owner did an inventory recently and found some old stock F26 and F50 Estes composite motors. I snatched a few up.
Laters.

 

[neil_w]

From what I understand there was a period when retailers were out of the 29mm motors. I have read that it was due to Estes retooling or refurbishing their 29mm motor making machines. They have been producing and retailers have been stocking the E16 and F15 motors for some time now.
My local hobby shops have a good selection in stock.
As others have said, Estes discontinued selling the rebranded Aerotech motors some years ago.
As well as discontinuing kits that cannot be flown on Estes BP motors.
I suspect that when people found out they could buy the same motors from Aerotech for a few dollars less then the Estes branded composites tanked.
BTW one local hobby shop owner did an inventory recently and found some old stock F26 and F50 Estes composite motors. I snatched a few up.
Laters.

You keep using that phrase. What does it mean?

 

[SolarYellow]

You keep using that phrase. What does it mean?

Is it the case that the absurd costs for a consumer to ship anything to Hawaii actually favor consolidated commercial shipments feeding old-fashioned local distribution?