Question for people who know cardstock rocketry (ACME Spitfire related)

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Green Jello

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Ok...I started my ACME Spitfire build:

acme.jpg

I'm doing a few basic mods to it to make it stronger at the base. For those who don't know, the base is made of a thick paper cone. I added some balsa reinforcements:

2013-02-18 07.50.33.jpg2013-02-18 07.51.01.jpg

So my question is this....

What should I coat the paper cone to make it stronger? I was considering epoxy but wasn't sure how smooth I'd be able to get it after sanding. Ideas?
 
CA is the usual choice. Just make sure it is the really thin stuff - like you can get from Hobby Lobby (pink label).
 
CA or multiple layers of cardstock are two ways to go. A thin veil of light fiberglass wouldn't add much weight but that's kinda overkill for that kit.. In my experience, extra strength on the shrouds themselves isn't needed. I have a poor record on deployed parachutes with this model and have found that the weak points are where the shrouds connect together.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Looks good Jello -- keep the build thread going as this will be useful information for me in the near future.

I just ordered a ACME spitfire. 1st week of April I have a small family reunion at my house for the week. I plan to build the Spitfire in advance and then have a kids decorating night where everyone gets to decorate one section and sign their section. Should have 5 kids at the house and there is five sections (4 plus NC) -- adults get to decorate the fins.
 
Yep... ultra-thin CA is the way to go....

Construct the paper shroud per the instructions, and then take it outside and just "soak" it with CA-- I use the tip of the bottle to gently "rub" the CA across the surface of the part and allow it to soak up or "drink in" all that it will take...

This turns the paper into something akin to fiberglass (but not fiberglass)... Instead of glass fibers embedded in a polyester or epoxy resin, it's paper fibers embedded in a CA resin...

Either way, it's VERY strong...

Later! OL JR :)
 
You don't need to beef up this rocket. It is very strong as designed.

Soaking the shrouds in CA will do nothing to help this rocket fly better.
 
You don't need to beef up this rocket. It is very strong as designed.

Soaking the shrouds in CA will do nothing to help this rocket fly better.

The whole body structure is indeed very strong, but I can't believe the fin shroud and nose cone are.
 
The fin shroud and nosecone are fine for what this rocket is meant to do.

If you don't crash it, the nosecone will hold up just fine for years. It is designed to withstand flight stresses and it is way more than strong enough to do that. I built 6 of these 6 years ago for school demos and except for the one that wintered in a tree they are all still fine after numerous flights. Stiffening the nosecone with CA will make the paper marginally less flexible but flight will not be improved by that. If it lawn darts, the nosecone will still crush even if you stiffen it with CA. So CA'ing the nosecone adds weight but gets you no real advantage.

As for the fin shroud, it is indeed flexible. Once you add the 4 fins, however, they act as stringers and the shroud is much stiffer. Again, it is perfectly adequate for the flight stresses this rocket is meant to encounter. Stiffening or reinforcing the shroud will not make this rocket fly straighter or go higher, nor will it help keep the fins on if the rocket crashes. So, again, adding CA yields no real flight advantage.

I didn't respond to your post to criticize you. I responded because of the numerous responses telling you "how" to do something without mentioning "whether" you needed to do it at all. The Acme Spitfire is brilliantly designed by the most innovative rocket designer currently producing kits. Jim Flis is a genius at producing unique flying machines (foam cup rear-ejection rockets, two and three canted motor kits, ultra easy to build classroom kits, multistage cone rockets, micro-rockets). What Jim truly excels at is building light but strong (as an aside, he also truly excels at being able to convert unique designs into kits others can build, with exceptionally clear building instructions, all of which requires huge talent).

Jim doesn't design rockets to survive lawn darts or being stepped on. But each of his designs is more than strong enough to do what it is supposed to do, which is to fly straight and true and last for lots and lots of flights. I have learned a huge amount from building Jim's designs.

I understand how someone might be concerned in looking at one of his designs that it might have strength issues. But I've yet to find one of his rockets, built the way he tells you to, that actually does have strength issues. The real issue with the Spitfire is whether "stronger" equals "better". I don't think it does.

Steve

Spitfires.jpg
 
Thanks Steve, that helps a lot. I hadn't put the fins on and was only judging by looks that it wasn't going to be very strong. I'll leave it as is and build as per the instructions except for the balsa reinforcements I already added.

Jim, if you end up finding this thread, please don't take this as criticism at all. I agree with just about everything Steve (Gus) said above. This is my first FlisKit and I am VERY impressed. Overall, it is the best LPR kit I've ever seen.
 
I've designed and built quite a few paper models (if you haven't seen it, check out my Project Paper in the Cardstock section) and I agree with Gus/Steve completely. People see how thin a sheet of cardstock is and assume it will easily crumble, dent or collapse. Not so - once formed into a cylinder or conical shape, it becomes really strong. The only thing I ever soak in CA is a single layer of 20# computer paper for super lightweight competition models - I wrap the paper around a form that is covered in parchment paper (CA won't stick to it, but it doesn't leave wax behind like waxed paper) apply the CA, let dry and sand smooth. The result is a super smooth, ultra light tube that works just like phenolic. Downside is it is really brittle and will easily zipper with an internal Kevlar shock cord. For the Spitfire, don't bother. Also, if you are using pre-printed wraps, the CA will blur the printing. A couple of light coats of clear coat are all you need to protect it, and that will make it a bit stronger against dents as well.
 
Gus is right. Mine has far fewer flights and lawn darted on it's maiden flight on a C11-3 (https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?3316-ACME-Spitfire/page2&highlight=ACME). The nose was scrap but had absorbed a fair amount of the crash's energy, which kept the repairs needed to the rest of the rocket fairly minimal. The beauty of the ACME, like the Deuce is the open canvas effect that it has on finishes, Steampunk, Redstone, food cans, mine in simple red with Wile E Coyote riding on a fin.
 
Thanks Steve, that helps a lot. I hadn't put the fins on and was only judging by looks that it wasn't going to be very strong. I'll leave it as is and build as per the instructions except for the balsa reinforcements I already added.

Jim, if you end up finding this thread, please don't take this as criticism at all. I agree with just about everything Steve (Gus) said above. This is my first FlisKit and I am VERY impressed. Overall, it is the best LPR kit I've ever seen.

Oh, I'm reading :) :). Always reading... Love folks discussing aspects of my designs, and the ACME is one of those that just BEGS discussion. LOL

the only thing that I would add to what Gus said is that, should you lawn dart the ACME , odds are it'll actually look better! Try THAT with any other rocket kit! :)
 
GJ have you made any more progress?? My Spitfire kit arrived today so I will start building it tonight.
 
Oh yes, I've been slowly building it for a couple weeks now and I'm close to the paint stage. I'm reluctant to post pictures of it here because I ended up making it very similar to FatBoy's steampunk design.
 
Other folks have expressed good opinions here, but I thought I'd add my personal experience with this kit. On mine, I tacked the fins onto the shroud and filleted them with 5min. I then reinforced the fins tip-to-tip with ordinary printer paper and 5min epoxy. The epoxy was applied only to the rocket, the paper was stuck on, air bubbles were worked out, and the whole thing was allowed to cure. Once this set up, the fins were very solid with very little weight gain. If done carefully, this also eliminates the chore of filling balsa wood grain. That rocket has landed with no chute about 5 times, and has landed on pavement twice with the chute fully deployed. On all but the last landing, the fins held to the shroud beautifully, but the tips would get banged up a bit. The last landing on asphalt finally did it in.

SAM_1671.JPG

This would be fairly easy to scab together, but after 11 flights, the central tube burned completely through just above the motor :(.

Oh, and you know how people put "patches" on their Spitfires for decorative effect? Why would you wanna do that when you can put on a real patch? This is what happens when the NC punches a hole in the BT after an eventful flight on an F24 (landing without the aid of a parachute, again), and you fix it ACME style!

SAM_1669.JPG
 
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Oh yes, I've been slowly building it for a couple weeks now and I'm close to the paint stage. I'm reluctant to post pictures of it here because I ended up making it very similar to FatBoy's steampunk design.

Okay, now you HAVE to post pictures!!!!
 
I have built two ACME Spitfires. The first one I built per the instructions, and I will admit that after several flights the fins were getting wobbly. So when I built the second one I put balsa supports under the shroud like you did, but I don't think mine when all the way to the front of that section. I also spread a thin layer of epoxy on the inside of the shroud to make it bullet-proof. The only drawback to doing that was I don't think white or carpenter glue sticks to epoxy well, so when I glued on the shroud to the bottom section I also used epoxy there. It may have been overkill (I did a few things overkill with that ACME) but the fins are still rock solid. For the nose cone I spread a few layers of Aleen's Tacky Glue on the inside to beef it up. I actually core-sampled my steampunked Spitfire once and it only had a very small dent in the nose cone. The nice thing about the steampunk decor is that a simple patch cut out of a piece of file folder and a few new rivets made it look like it always belonged there. like Wiley said - fix it ACME-style!

Good luck with yours, Dave, and POST MORE PICTURES!
 
... Stiffening the nosecone with CA will make the paper marginally less flexible but flight will not be improved by that. If it lawn darts, the nosecone will still crush even if you stiffen it with CA. So CA'ing the nosecone adds weight but gets you no real advantage.
...


Steve

Now that statement got my curiosity up. I'm certainly not disputing that any substance you add adds weight. How much weight I wonder ? Milligrams ? I think coating paper shrouds in CA is a net gain but maybe not in every case ?

Ok...please keep in mind that ALL credit for design goes to FatBoy NOT me. Here is a quick tease:


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7801353/Linked/IMG_3694.JPG
View attachment 119839

Green Jello that looks fantastic ! No false modesty now :wink:. You could certainly do alot worse than emulating a FatBoy build. I certainly studied up when I made my Deimos. There a few pictures floating around here of that.
 
What do you call the half-round bead-like entities that you used for rivets?
 
Dave.... That looks totally AWESOME!! I love the valve idea. Your hatch, ladder and handle are a fabulous touch!! I really can't wait to see more pictures and to see it finished!
 
It's been a few weeks Dave, time to tease us with another picture -- please :smile:
 
Ok, sorry. Spring came and life got hectic. The kids baseball took 5 of the 7 days alone this week. I've been outside all day building a fence. Hopefully I can find time to paint some more soon, but I have a long way to go. Here is another quick tease.

IMG_3705.jpg
 
That looks fantastic -- You and Fatboy are setting the bar really high for others who want to do a steam punk theme.
 
Wow, Dave.... That is turning out really cool! I love it! More pictures!
 
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