PSA - Loki Price Increase 2022/03/08

[3stoogesrocketry]

On the 38/480 blue, it's basically an I-405 White, except it's Blue, not just in geometry, but in performance parameters as well. In order to keep it USPS shipable, there isn't a whole lot I can do to make it any more interesting.

About the only difference is it has 1/2" bores and not 7/16" like the white does.

Scott I think this is a good idea and I would purchase some. Would you be able to make this a hazmat free load?

 

[jmasterj]

I'm really surprised that the moderators have not closed this thread by now.

They've been aggressively deleting posts rather than closing things recently. I'd prefer that to shutting down some useful discussion because some people can't avoid bringing politics into things.

 

[sharkbait]

Yes, that is the caveat. If certified as a plugged motor, you would need to be L2 to fly it as an EX motor with a delay bulkhead. Just swap bulkheads. No need for a new part with a thumb screw. You'd be on your own for using it that way though.

People do the opposite now and I don't see using a plugged bulkhead in place of a certified delay bulkhead as making it EX. You're simply disabling the delay ejection and replacing it with a more reliable, plugged component.

IMHO, get it out there as plugged, that will be quicker, easier and cheaper for you to make and get certified and get revenue coming in. Offer a delay bulkhead and delay grains separately kinda like AT does through RCS. If someone wants to fly it as motor eject they can purchase that seperately, but would have to get their L2 to fly it. You are going to get a bunch of people saying yeah I’ll bit this and I’ll buy that but you’ll never know for sure how much will really happen till you get it out there, after you cert it with TMT as plugged you can always go back at a later time and get it certified with delays if demand warrants it

 

[sharkbait]

They've been aggressively deleting posts rather than closing things recently. I'd prefer that to shutting down some useful discussion because some people can't avoid bringing politics into things.

Politics are the main reason threads like this end up getting starting in the first place, like it or not that’s real

 

[jmasterj]

Politics are the main reason threads like this end up getting starting in the first place, like it or not that’s real

I disagree. I've started PSA threads for this and for CTI's new year price increase. I like to know what the prices of things I frequently buy are, and I assume at least some other people think the same way. I have no interest whatsoever in people's political arguments blaming various people/groups/companies/whomever.

 

[sharkbait]

I disagree. I've started PSA threads for this and for CTI's new year price increase. I like to know what the prices of things I frequently buy are, and I assume at least some other people think the same way. I have no interest whatsoever in people's political arguments blaming various people/groups/companies/whomever.

I like to know WHY the things I buy frequently go way up in price, and yes occasionally it’s because of things beyond anyone’s control, but more often than not it’s from bad politics

 

[Loki Research]

Scott I think this is a good idea and I would purchase some. Would you be able to make this a hazmat free load?

Yes. USPS mailable.

They've been aggressively deleting posts rather than closing things recently. I'd prefer that to shutting down some useful discussion because some people can't avoid bringing politics into things.

Did you ever stop to consider, that maybe, however much we might want to believe or are told the opposite, politics are in everything, everywhere, every day, all the time to control, direct or influence you somehow. What you see day to day is only the tip of the iceberg sticking out above the surface. You might try not be a part of it directly, but within every kind of organization or group, good, bad, or otherwise, there are politics at play on a personal level by people to control, direct or influence persons somewhere within that group.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics
5a: the total complex of relations between people living in society.

That pretty much covers EVERYTHING we do in life, including posting on internet forums.
In the definition, if you simply replace the word government with people or person/s, the same is acheived.

In a nut shell, no truly honest discussion can be had without "politics" being involved.

By the way, this is all completely germane to a conversation with me, because I get around the topic block like the Kool-Aid man when I'm not carefull.

I like to know WHY the things I buy frequently go way up in price, and yes occasionally it’s because of things beyond anyone’s control, but more often than not it’s from bad politics

That comes back to one's perspective.
Bad politics from your perspective, good politics from the bank's.

 

[FlyBy01]

I disagree. I've started PSA threads for this and for CTI's new year price increase. I like to know what the prices of things I frequently buy are, and I assume at least some other people think the same way. I have no interest whatsoever in people's political arguments blaming various people/groups/companies/whomever.

If you can get a CTI motor. I am working towards my level three and Aero-Tech discontinued the motor I wanted to use and Loki Research just did a price increase just like every company out there due to the inflation problem. So it's a bit tough right now for all of us including small businesses like Loki Research which is competing with the two larger companies. The reality is that there's three major High Power Rocket motor manufactures and you have to pick what is good for you. I am personally looking at Loki Research because of the quality I have seen and the EX side of making my own motors one day (for personal EX use only).

 

[jsdemar]

The USA is the worst place to live. Except for all the other places on earth. ;-)

 

[FlyBy01]

The USA is the worst place to live. Except for all the other places on earth. ;-)

True story.

 

[cichlidgoob]

@Loki Research, I would certainly buy the inexpensive option without a delay, but how significant would the price difference be?

 

[jmasterj]

I like to know WHY the things I buy frequently go way up in price, and yes occasionally it’s because of things beyond anyone’s control, but more often than not it’s from bad politics

I like to know the whys too, but we could easily discuss the proximate causes without tons of arguing about the ultimate causes. The former is informative (like the price of AP and resins having greatly increased the last few years) and latter is, IMO, not something I want to spend my time on here at TRF.

 

[sharkbait]

I like to know the whys too, but we could easily discuss the proximate causes without tons of arguing about the ultimate causes. The former is informative (like the price of AP and resins having greatly increased the last few years) and latter is, IMO, not something I want to spend my time on here on TRF.

Agreed

 

[Loki Research]

@Loki Research, I would certainly buy the inexpensive option without a delay, but how significant would the price difference be?

Mike, I don't know that I want to talk about price publicly at this time just yet. You or anyone else are more than welcome to email/PM me your suggestions/opinions on it though. I'm happy to consider them all.

 

[NateB]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

Yes, I would be interested. I don't need motor ejection and a plugged bulkhead works good for me, especially if it saves a few dollars. Every rocket I have with a 38mm or 54mm mount is set up for dual deploy or the Eggtimer Apogee in the nose for electronic deployment.

 

[Banzai88]

Question about 'plugged' bulkheads. If we already have a regular bulkhead, can a wad of dog barf be packed into it and capped/taped? Would that make it a 'research' motor?

 

[jmasterj]

Question about 'plugged' bulkheads. If we already have a regular bulkhead, can a wad of dog barf be packed into it and capped/taped? Would that make it a 'research' motor?

Yes, fill it with dog barf and tape it down. No, that doesn't make it a research motor.

 

[rharshberger]

Question about 'plugged' bulkheads. If we already have a regular bulkhead, can a wad of dog barf be packed into it and capped/taped? Would that make it a 'research' motor

I assume you mean in the ejection charge well (exterior side) of the forward closure, and not the interior side of the forward closure where the delay/smoke grain goes.

If its the ejection charge well the its not research.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Do not, under any circumstances, leave out the delay grain, when you leave out the ejection charge. The delay grain seals the forward end of the motor and must be installed.

 

[sharkbait]

Do not, under any circumstances, leave out the delay grain, when you leave out the ejection charge. The delay grain seals the forward end of the motor and must be installed.

I’ve cast some epoxy slugs to fill the delay well when I don’t need smoke

 

[mrwalsh85]

I'm game for plugged motors.

 

[Loki Research]

Speaking of bulkheads, the our website page for the 38mm Delay/Ejection Bulkhead has been broke and will not accept the new price update of $39. We're trying to get it fixed.

Question about 'plugged' bulkheads. If we already have a regular bulkhead, can a wad of dog barf be packed into it and capped/taped? Would that make it a 'research' motor?

I assume you're talking about not including the ejection charge and filling it with barf, if so yeah, that works.
I think its getting too far into the weeds to say if that was allowable or not, especially when instead of the motor, you're going to activate your recovery with a much more reliable method. I don't know why that would be an issue.

 

[Banzai88]

Speaking of bulkheads, the our website page for the 38mm Delay/Ejection Bulkhead has been broke and will not accept the new price update of $39. We're trying to get it fixed.


I assume you're talking about not including the ejection charge and filling it with barf, if so yeah, that works.
I think its getting too far into the weeds to say if that was allowable or not, especially when instead of the motor, you're going to activate your recovery with a much more reliable method. I don't know why that would be an issue.

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear, I was meaning the ejection charge and NOT the smoke grain. Just asking to be very clear because sometimes there's too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to how to interpret things like that.

 

[sharkbait]

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear, I was meaning the ejection charge and NOT the smoke grain. Just asking to be very clear because sometimes there's too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to how to interpret things like that.

I can’t remember that dates, but there was an issue with the V-Max loads snuffing out the delays and it was required to only fly them with electronics. So by passing motor eject for electronics is not a problem

 

[Banzai88]

I can’t remember that dates, but there was an issue with the V-Max loads snuffing out the delays and it was required to only fly them with electronics. So by passing motor eject for electronics is not a problem

Never thought that bypassing a motor certified as having motor eject capabilities for electronic eject was a problem, especially seeing as it is quite common that motor instructions option for using the motor provided eject black powder charge be used for the electronic eject vice the motor bulkhead, and the other commercial 75s and 98s are non-motor eject by design.

I was just making sure that if a motor was certified as 'plugged' with no ejection charge that using a conventional motor eject forward bulkhead packed with dog barf and sealed wouldn't somehow make it 'EX' in the grand convoluted scheme of things and that to fly one 'as certified' to know if I was going to be forced to buy a 'plugged' Loki bulkhead.

That's been answered as "YES, you can use your conventional fwd bulkhead packed with dog barf and sealed and NO, it won't make it EX", so we have something definitive to stick in the ear of those who believe some strange things about what constitutes "EX".

Edited for clarification.

 

[mrwalsh85]

Never thought that bypassing a motor certified as having motor eject capabilities for electronic eject was a problem, especially seeing as electronic eject is quite common with having the motor instructions option for using the motor provided eject charge for the electronic eject vice the motor bulkhead and the other commercial 75s and 98s are non-motor eject by design.

I was just making sure that if a motor was certified as 'plugged' with no ejection charge that using a conventional motor eject forward bulkhead packed with dog barf and sealed wouldn't somehow make it 'EX' in the grand convoluted scheme of things and that to fly one 'as certified' to know if I was going to be forced to buy a 'plugged' Loki bulkhead.

That's been answered as "NO, it won't make it EX", so we have something definitive to stick in the ear of those who believe some strange things about what constitutes "EX".

Wouldn't be any different than substituting the standard open forward bulkhead with a tapped plugged forward closure...

 

[John Kemker]

Speaking of bulkheads, the our website page for the 38mm Delay/Ejection Bulkhead has been broke and will not accept the new price update of $39. We're trying to get it fixed.


I assume you're talking about not including the ejection charge and filling it with barf, if so yeah, that works.
I think its getting too far into the weeds to say if that was allowable or not, especially when instead of the motor, you're going to activate your recovery with a much more reliable method. I don't know why that would be an issue.

I am going to keep a copy of this reply as proof that not including the ejection charge and using dog barf to fill the delay grain area is a manufacturer-approved modification.

 

[rharshberger]

I am going to keep a copy of this reply as proof that not including the ejection charge and using dog barf to fill the delay grain area is a manufacturer-approved modification.

Motors are not certified with ejection charges, just delay grains (if motor uses a delay grain).

My interpretation of Scotts post was that he is referring to the ejection charge well not the delay grain side.

 

[user 30299]

I am going to keep a copy of this reply as proof that not including the ejection charge and using dog barf to fill the delay grain area is a manufacturer-approved modification.

The dog barf in the delay grain well is only with a plugged forward closure (bulkhead), not a forward closure
that has a deployment charge (BP).

 

[Banzai88]

I am going to keep a copy of this reply as proof that not including the ejection charge and using dog barf to fill the delay grain area is a manufacturer-approved modification.

I think you have it wrong. The delay/smoke grain, if included, MUST be installed. ONLY the normal cavity where the black powder ejection charge goes can be packed with dog barf and sealed.

Looking at the Loki web site, the plugged 38mm bulkheads have an internal cavity where the smoke grain goes. Reference here: https://www.lokiresearch.com/secure/storeDetail.asp?id=4968028224303