PSA - Loki Price Increase 2022/03/08

[Steve Shannon]

I am going to keep a copy of this reply as proof that not including the ejection charge and using dog barf to fill the delay grain area is a manufacturer-approved modification.

No matter what, you must seal the delay/smoke grain cavity to prevent damaging it. Dog barf in the smoke/delay grain cavity will not do that. Some plugged Loki forward closures (all of mine) have a tiny vent hole to make it easier to insert the smoke grain. The smoke/delay grain is the perfect thing to do that with, but a cast slug of epoxy as mentioned above would work as well.
The only place to put dog barf is in the ejection charge well, and honestly it’s not even needed there. A little grease works well there.

 

[user 30299]

Here is an delay grain "plug" for AeroTech's standard 54mm forward closure. I use this at times
to save the occasional delay grain as a spare. I keep spares just in case I "accidentally" drill the
grain to far and have too short a delay time.

 

[wsume99]

Here is an delay grain "plug" for AeroTech's standard 54mm forward closure. I use this at times
to save the occasional delay grain as a spare. I keep spares just in case I "accidentally" drill the
grain to far and have too short a delay time.

Pretty sure that's a required part for at least one of the long burn 54mm motors. (Now I have to go look it up, it's the J99N which also requires a different fwd closure according to the assembly drawing.)

Point being that's an actual OEM part, not something you made for yourself, correct? Obviously the latter would put someone into EX territory. The former may not depending on what was certified by the OEM.

 

[user 30299]

Pretty sure that's a required part for at least one of the long burn 54mm motors. (Now I have to go look it up, it's the J99N.)

Point being that's an actual OEM part, not something you made for yourself, correct? Obviously the latter would put someone into EX territory. The former may not depending on what was certified by the OEM.

The long burn 54mm motors take the Extended Closure, which you can see in the first picture, on the right, the tall black closure.

The plug is for the standard closure. I sent these pictures to Carl at AeroTech to figure out what I had.
It's a long funny story as to how I ended up with the extended closure and the plug, and it goes back
to the days of Red Arrow Hobbies. Carl was great - explaining how to use the plug. Even sent me a
bag of the proper O-rings. No charge.

 

[wsume99]

The long burn 54mm motors take the Extended Closure, which you can see in the first picture, on the right, the tall black closure.

Not the J99N. Drawing calls for the regular forward closure. It seems to require an oddball assortment of hardware.

 

[sharkbait]

Pretty sure that's a required part for at least one of the long burn 54mm motors. (Now I have to go look it up, it's the J99N which also requires a different fwd closure according to the assembly drawing.)

Point being that's an actual OEM part, not something you made for yourself, correct? Obviously the latter would put someone into EX territory. The former may not depending on what was certified by the OEM.

I posted it earlier, I cast delay grains with epoxy or JB Weld when you don’t need smoke, you can use them over and over again, this doesn’t make the motor EX now AFAIK. Perhaps Steve or John could clarify this for certain.

 

[user 30299]

Not the J99N. Drawing calls for the regular forward closure. It seems to require an oddball assortment of hardware.

That's a 54mm "Pop Can" motor. Uses an aft closure for a "small nozzle". And it's a Warp motor too.

 

[wsume99]

I posted it earlier, I cast delay grains with epoxy or JB Weld when you don’t need smoke, you can use them over and over again, this doesn’t make the motor EX now AFAIK. Perhaps Steve or John could clarify this for certain.

I saw your earlier post and I have not seen any reply from an official source confirming that type of modification does not make the motor experimental which is why I commented the way I did. Everything I have seen has been about plugging the charge well on a certified motor, not the smoke/delay well.

I agree it should not be considered EX but it's technically a change to the configuration of the certified motor. You could cause a failure if you don't plug the smoke/delay well correctly. It's not hard to do correctly but now someone is messing with a critical part of the motor. I don't see any way someone could cause a motor failure by plugging the charge well or just leaving it completely empty.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I posted it earlier, I cast delay grains with epoxy or JB Weld when you don’t need smoke, you can use them over and over again, this doesn’t make the motor EX now AFAIK. Perhaps Steve or John could clarify this for certain.

Any official opinion would have to come from the certification committee (TMT - @Alan Whitmore). I am not authorized to make those judgment calls.
But, and this is just my personal opinion, but it’s what I would use as an RSO, any replacement of certified motor components (either reloads or case parts) is not a certified configuration. The delay grain is part of the certified configuration. An epoxy plug is not.
Why not just use the delay/smoke grain?

 

[sharkbait]

Any official opinion would have to come from the certification committee (TMT - @Alan Whitmore). I am not authorized to make those judgment calls.
But, and this is just my personal opinion, but it’s what I would use as an RSO, any replacement of certified motor components (either reloads or case parts) is not a certified configuration. The delay grain is part of the certified configuration. An epoxy plug is not.
Why not just use the delay/smoke grain?

Steve,Can you get an official response from Alan?

1. Can you plug the delay well with an epoxy filled delay grain?

2. Can you switch to a plugged or hockey puck forward closure instead of the delay well closure?

Guess this is moot unless you are not L2 or you are attending a NAR sanctioned launch

 

[Steve Shannon]

Steve,Can you get an official response from Alan?

1. Can you plug the delay well with an epoxy filled delay grain?

2. Can you switch to a plugged or hockey puck forward closure instead of the delay well closure?

Guess this is moot unless you are not L2 or you are attending a NAR sanctioned launch

You definitely can switch to a plugged enclosure rather than one with an ejection charge well.
I could ask Alan about using an epoxy slug instead of the delay grain, but again I ask why you don’t just use the delay/smoke grain as it’s certified? It comes with the reload.

 

[sharkbait]

You definitely can switch to a plugged enclosure rather than one with an ejection charge well.
I could ask Alan about using an epoxy slug instead of the delay grain, but again I ask why you don’t just use the delay/smoke grain as it’s certified? It comes with the reload.

Sometimes you don’t need tracking smoke, why waste it when you could save a delay grain for later when you do want it or have as a backup if you screw up one up while drilling it. I do the epoxy plugs mainly on EX because most of my closures have delay wells and if I’m out of hockey pucks for a given launch it’s a simple way to use the smoke well closures without smoke

I don’t see how the delay grain does much for the certification process. It doesn’t have enough propellent or burn time to contribute much of anything while the motor is under thrust/pressure, the rest of the grain burns under ambient after motor burnout, again contributing nothing to the motor profile. As you stated before it’s purpose is either to provide smoke in a plugged smoke well closure, or to protect the BP charge from going off before the approximate delay time in a motor eject closure or to protect blow through in a motor eject closure without the charge installed.

 

[bobbyg23]

I am going to keep a copy of this reply as proof that not including the ejection charge and using dog barf to fill the delay grain area is a manufacturer-approved modification.

You are confusing delay grain and ejection charge. They are not talking about filling the delay grain space with dog barf.

 

[Steve Shannon]

As you stated before it’s purpose is either to provide smoke in a plugged smoke well closure, or to protect the BP charge from going off before the approximate delay time in a motor eject closure or to protect blow through in a motor eject closure without the charge installed.

It’s that last part that has me convinced that substituting an epoxy slug instead of the provided delay/smoke grain is contrary to the terms of motor certification.
The delay/smoke grain is an integral part of the motor as it was certified. Failure of that part of the system during certification would result in failure to certify. As such, any modifications to it must be approved by the manufacturer. Drilling a delay is one such modification. Replacing it with a homemade substitute is not. It hasn’t been tested by either the manufacturer nor the certification committee.
Frankly, I think the answer should be obvious that you cannot substitute a foreign object in place of an internal motor component and still have the motor be considered a certified motor.
It’s a modification that hasn’t been approved by the manufacturer and for which no manufacturer instructions exist. It’s no different than substituting a homemade nozzle, seal disk, or hardware component. Many people could do it without failure but it’s not something that all people should be permitted to do.
The definition of a Research Motor in the Tripoli Safety Code, contains this:
Research Motor: A Rocket Motor, made by a Tripoli member or team of Tripoli members or a Certified Motor which has been intentionally modified by a Tripoli member or team of Tripoli members for their own use at a Tripoli launch.

It’s apparent to me that this fits into the research motor category.

 

[sharkbait]

It’s that last part that has me convinced that substituting an epoxy slug instead of the provided delay/smoke grain is contrary to the terms of motor certification.
The delay/smoke grain is an integral part of the motor as it was certified. Failure of that part of the system during certification would result in failure to certify. As such, any modifications to it must be approved by the manufacturer. Drilling a delay is one such modification. Replacing it with a homemade substitute is not. It hasn’t been tested by either the manufacturer nor the certification committee.
Frankly, I think the answer should be obvious that you cannot substitute a foreign object in place of an internal motor component and still have the motor be considered a certified motor.
It’s a modification that hasn’t been approved by the manufacturer and for which no manufacturer instructions exist. It’s no different than substituting a homemade nozzle, seal disk, or hardware component. Many people could do it without failure but it’s not something that all people should be permitted to do.
The definition of a Research Motor in the Tripoli Safety Code, contains this:
Research Motor: A Rocket Motor, made by a Tripoli member or team of Tripoli members or a Certified Motor which has been intentionally modified by a Tripoli member or team of Tripoli members for their own use at a Tripoli launch.

It’s apparent to me that this fits into the research motor category.

Thanks Steve, we’ll take that as the official answer then.
Now, what about if you were to …..

 

[Steve Shannon]

Thanks Steve, we’ll take that as the official answer then.
Now, what about if you were to …..

Yesterday I looked but couldn’t find the right requirements in NFPA 1127. I had better luck today. The relevant requirements are 4.5.3 and 4.5.4

 

[John Kemker]

I think you have it wrong. The delay/smoke grain, if included, MUST be installed. ONLY the normal cavity where the black powder ejection charge goes can be packed with dog barf and sealed.

Looking at the Loki web site, the plugged 38mm bulkheads have an internal cavity where the smoke grain goes. Reference here: https://www.lokiresearch.com/secure/storeDetail.asp?id=4968028224303

Oops! You're right. I misread.

/slapsforehead
Doh!

 

[Steve Shannon]

Thanks Steve, we’ll take that as the official answer then.
Now, what about if you were to …..

I got an answer from Alan. The summary is that modifications to certified configurations can only be done if announced by the manufacturer with an appropriate level of instruction.

 

[Loki Research]

Loki Research Manufacture Announcement:
Any 38mm reload certified with any motor ejection delay - you may substitute a 38mm Plugged/Smoke Forward Bulkhead for a 38mm Delay/Ejection Bulkhead. This effectively removes the ejection charge function and completely seals the bulkhead from any external openings. Dag barf, greaes or any other inert material could be placed in the ejection well only, outside of the motor. The only thing We recommend is the red plastic cap and a thin layer of grease over the inner surfaces to aid in clean up.

Any 38mm reload certified with a plugged bulkhead - If we decide to offer these in the future, a Plugged Bulkhead must be used. Any use of a Delay/Ejection bulkhead would fall in the the research area and we would not warranty any delay blow by failure of such a motor that was due to the use of a Delay Ejection bulkhead. The purpose of the Plugged bulkhead would be to ensure 100% reliability of the forward closure. Opting for the Delay/ejection bulkhead would reduce this.

Any other modifications would fall into the research area and would also void the warranty.

I hope this clears everything up from my end.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Loki Research Manufacture Announcement:
Any 38mm reload certified with any motor ejection delay - you may substitute a 38mm Plugged/Smoke Forward Bulkhead for a 38mm Delay/Ejection Bulkhead. This effectively removes the ejection charge function and completely seals the bulkhead from any external openings. Dag barf, greaes or any other inert material could be placed in the ejection well only, outside of the motor. The only thing We recommend is the red plastic cap and a thin layer of grease over the inner surfaces to aid in clean up.

Any 38mm reload certified with a plugged bulkhead - If we decide to offer these in the future, a Plugged Bulkhead must be used. Any use of a Delay/Ejection bulkhead would fall in the the research area and we would not warranty any delay blow by failure of such a motor that was due to the use of a Delay Ejection bulkhead. The purpose of the Plugged bulkhead would be to ensure 100% reliability of the forward closure. Opting for the Delay/ejection bulkhead would reduce this.

Any other modifications would fall into the research area and would also void the warranty.

I hope this clears everything up from my end.

Thank you, Scott. Please be sure to add something similar in your instructions and on your website.

 

[emckee]

Simple. Time = money. It takes a lot more time and money to test motors for delay times than just the motor itself.

This makes sense, but my question was more along the lines of "how much difference would this change make in the retail price?"

 

[Loki Research]

This makes sense, but my question was more along the lines of "how much difference would this change make in the retail price?"

Maybe somewhere around $5-$8.

 

[jd2cylman]

That's a 54mm "Pop Can" motor. Uses an aft closure for a "small nozzle". And it's a Warp motor too.

View attachment 559274

Nope. J99 is for the 54/852 case.
The 54/426 case has the I599 motor.
No long burns.

 

[Jowayen]

And all of the best performing funds offered by my employer are down 15-18% annually over the last 2 years.....and still falling.

Not sure what your 401k's are invested into but my 401k is up 11% this year. I keep up with trends daily and change when I see a negative coming on (almost monthly)...

And the eggs I bought last week were $2.95/dzn