PSA - Loki Price Increase 2022/03/08

[AlexBruccoleri]

Why? You are far more likely to have blow by or early eject than electronics failure. If you really want a back up, then use a second altimeter.

To repeat, I have never had an electronics failure. I still personally prefer a fully independent backup system to avoid a "common cause of failure". In my rockets with two sets of electronics, I often use different batteries and different electronics to mitigate that. None-the-less, there can still be issues that cause both to fail. For example, vent holes or just plane human error such as forgetting to arm them. It is worth noting that some of my smaller rockets can only easily fit one set of electronics, and in those cases I am doubling down on wanting motor backup. Lastly there is user safety. I consider ejection systems going off by mistake to be the most dangerous aspect of the hobby. I accept that risk as a flier, but still prefer having a backup ejection system that cannot go off by a faulty flight computer.

Ps-What do you mean by "blow by"?

 

[charrington]

The cost of diesel has sky rocketed, it is now 1200 bucks to fill my tanks. I do that 3 times a week. Fuel is my largest supply needed. I think that just gave me the right to comment about the cost. I haul food ingredients for YOUR table. Has your box of Wheaties gone up to 12 bucks yet?

Don’t forget the rising cost of Class A auto insurance. Both my grandfather and father were/are commercial auto transporters. You of all people should know the importance of maintaining a livable wage while job costs increase. Scott expressed concern about putting food on the table, which means he needs to increase prices. He doesn’t need to starve himself or his family so that we can have rocket motors at last years price. Regarding my wheaties, I think the suits at the top of the grocery stores you deliver to could easily afford to increase your wage AND cover your diesel costs. It might eat into their month long summer vacation in Tahiti or they might have to rent out one of their vacation houses to airbnb though.

 

[David Schwantz]

You are so far out of touch it is a shame. I do not know one single person in this world who does not eat. We are ALL in the same boat. Does not matter if you are a wage earner or owner, prices have gone up for everyone. And as far as insurance goes, I have to provide a 3/4 million dollar policy against people that drive stupid, I have cargo insurance, vehicle insurance, my home owners goes up as my business is located there. How much do you think that costs?
It is also a shame that you cannot actually read a post. I do NOT deliver to grocery stores.

 

[charrington]

You are so far out of touch it is a shame. I do not know one single person in this world who does not eat. We are ALL in the same boat. Does not matter if you are a wage earner or owner, prices have gone up for everyone. And as far as insurance goes, I have to provide a 3/4 million dollar policy against people that drive stupid, I have cargo insurance, vehicle insurance, my home owners goes up as my business is located there. How much do you think that costs?
It is also a shame that you cannot actually read a post. I do NOT deliver to grocery stores.

https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-americaMillions of Americans are food insecure. You also said “i do not know one single person in this world” which is more than America so:

Maybe you are familiar with this photo?
We, as a whole, are not in the same boat. I think Bezos, Musk, and any banker CEO for that matter hasn’t actually cared about the price of eggs for a very long time unless they have stock in the agriculture companies.
Regarding your commercial insurance I was defending your position about being affected by increasing costs because like I mentioned, I have immediate family that are auto haulers which also are dealing with the rise of these costs. I know how much its increasing which is why I brought it up.
I assumed you deliver to grocery stores because you specifically brought up that you haul food to MY table and the price of my wheaties are not increasing with the cost of your diesel. Are you hauling to food manufacturers? The same concept still applies, Kellogg is doing A-okay if you ask me:

 

[Tommie D]

I switched to Loki Research last year for a reason. Thank You Scott Kormeier, Your Motors Rock !

 

[David Schwantz]

Have a nice day!

 

[sharkbait]

Have a nice day!

Love that reply, it’s one of my main go to’s at work.

I’d say that anyone that is against corporations making money and leaders and managers making good money in our free capitalistic society should perhaps take a couple year sabbatical to go live in one of the wonderful socialist or communist countries and take notes an enlighten us on how that’s working out.

 

[Banzai88]

Love that reply, it’s one of my main go to’s at work.

I’d say that anyone that is against corporations making money and leaders and managers making good money in our free capitalistic society should perhaps take a couple year sabbatical to go live in one of the wonderful socialist or communist countries and take notes an enlighten us on how that’s working out.

Add to that list of deliverables an exact explanation of how we're all supposed to get anything out of our 401Ks with barely eking by companies and colapsing stock values.

 

[charrington]

Love that reply, it’s one of my main go to’s at work.

I’d say that anyone that is against corporations making money and leaders and managers making good money in our free capitalistic society should perhaps take a couple year sabbatical to go live in one of the wonderful socialist or communist countries and take notes an enlighten us on how that’s working out.

Ah yes those terrible socialist countries. Just like how capitalism didnt refuse our 9/11 first responders medical coverage for injuries obtained during the attack, right?Same as our troops of operation desert storm whose health ailments are “not service related”? Hold on, I already know you are gonna blame that on the government and not capitalism. Lets go back in time then to the real laissez faire era of America (you know what that is right?). Back when we had children dieing in steel factories, company towns that permanently indebted people, private security firms that would use violence against striking workers (pinkertons), women being burned alive in a factory fire because the boss locked the doors to prevent anyone from leaving early. Great times right? Gotta love the free market huh? If anyone criticizes modern American economic policies, immediately labeled a socialist. It’s such a cop out for real discussion about political economy in this country.

 

[charrington]

Add to that list of deliverables an exact explanation of how we're all supposed to get anything out of our 401Ks with barely eking by companies and colapsing stock values.

Oh yeah they are barely eking by
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/...hird-quarter-amid-40-year-high-inflation/amp/

 

[Banzai88]

Oh yeah they are barely eking by
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/...hird-quarter-amid-40-year-high-inflation/amp/

I didn't say they were eking by, but that all of our 401Ks would be dead in the water if they were!

Or are you one of those independently wealthy folks that doesn't need to worry about retirement like the rest of us peons down here in the mud?

 

[rharshberger]

I didn't say they were eking by, but that all of our 401Ks would be dead in the water if they were!

Or are you one of those independently wealthy folks that doesn't need to worry about retirement like the rest of us peons down here in the mud?

And our 401k's are our future, Social Security damn sure isn't, and I have been paying into SS for 40 years.

 

[Banzai88]

And our 401k's are our future, Social Security damn sure isn't, and I have been paying into SS for 40 years.

And all of the best performing funds offered by my employer are down 15-18% annually over the last 2 years.....and still falling.

Back on topic, if Scott need to raise prices, Scott needs to raise prices. AT and CTI prices are up and they're all about the same price for comparable motors at this point....I'll spend what I can on ones that interest me and don't blow up.

 

[charrington]

I didn't say they were eking by, but that all of our 401Ks would be dead in the water if they were!

Or are you one of those independently wealthy folks that doesn't need to worry about retirement like the rest of us peons down here in the mud?

I see the clarification and I agree that 401ks are hugely important for the majority of working Americans and a strong economy ensures this security net for retirement. Workers getting higher pay doesn’t make the economy weaker though and large companies can afford it which would mean more rocket launching for us. I think these threads along with countless other posts that criticize Aerotech, CTI, and Loki for raising prices to adjust for cost of materials are telling of the effects that stagnant wages has on our hobby. Im getting tired of people complaining to aerotech, cti, and loki about how they are gonna price them out of the hobby when the average cost of a motor over the last 20 years has been lower than inflation. At what point do we stop pointing the finger at Scott who runs his entire business alongside his wife and start asking for better wages at our respective workplaces?

 

[rocketace]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer?

I mostly fly 38mm and I fly all of them plugged. I just like the assurance that the rocket will separate at the right time with electronics instead of guessing and hoping with delays. Now that I have an 18mm dual deployment altimeter, any new rocket I build will probably not use motor ejection.

 

[sharkbait]

Ah yes those terrible socialist countries. Just like how capitalism didnt refuse our 9/11 first responders medical coverage for injuries obtained during the attack, right?Same as our troops of operation desert storm whose health ailments are “not service related”? Hold on, I already know you are gonna blame that on the government and not capitalism. Lets go back in time then to the real laissez faire era of America (you know what that is right?). Back when we had children dieing in steel factories, company towns that permanently indebted people, private security firms that would use violence against striking workers (pinkertons), women being burned alive in a factory fire because the boss locked the doors to prevent anyone from leaving early. Great times right? Gotta love the free market huh? If anyone criticizes modern American economic policies, immediately labeled a socialist. It’s such a cop out for real discussion about political economy in this country.

The government and free capitalism are two different things

Let’s not compose a list of atrocities that have been committed by the different philospies, I think that would quite futile for anyone trying to justify the alternatives to what we currently have.

Also please try to stay in the present, again I am betting that you’re not putting your house up for sale in preparation for a move to one of those socialist or communist countries anytime soon.

You are saying Scott has the right to pass on increased costs of his business to his consumers, and I totally agree with that, but so does every other business too. Whether Scott or those other businesses are profitable or not, or able to stay in business or not, is another story and the success or failure of all of them is not solely based on increased business costs

HAVE A NICE DAY

 

[sharkbait]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

To your question Scott, is it possible to sell the loads with a delay welled motor eject forward, but have the touch hole tapped with a small set screw in it? You could sell the load as plugged with tracking smoke. If someone wanted to fly it as motor eject, they could drill the delay accordingly, remove the set screw and add their powder. This would cut your TMT costs way down. Drawback would be that if you flew it motor eject and drilled the delay, they would probably have you and call it EX now and the flyer would have to be L2
I really don’t see any difference when you drill down an AT or CTI delay and add powder as modifying the motor, but that’s above my pay grade.

 

[Loki Research]

It's a bit of a trade-off... How would the reduced development costs translate to the commercial motor price?

Simple. Time = money. It takes a lot more time and money to test motors for delay times than just the motor itself.

Ps-What do you mean by "blow by"?

When the delay material burns thru or is otherwise compromised and allows the pressure to "blow by" the delay shooting flames out the touch hole.

Almost always, this is from using a extra short or short delay (XS, S) which has the minimum amount of delay material remaining to hold back the chamber pressure. If the igniter is not properly pulled back 1/2" to 1" from the bulkhead (instruction #13), you run the chance of lighting the delay first, burning away that remaining material prematurely. The worst scenario is installing the igniter up into the drilled out delay, which will certainly cause such a failure.

As a motor manufacture, my only concern for failure is within the motor itself, not the rocket. So if I can change anything to make a motor more reliable, it is using a plugged bulkhead without any holes in the top. From there, everything in a safe flight is on the flier to get it right.

 

[Sandy H.]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

I have the Loki 38mm system, but would have to check if I have a plugged closure or not. I do (did. . .not recently) fly electronics and in general if I put electronics in, I fly plugged closures.

So, from my perspective, if you did some 38/480 loads that had no delay and were an interesting burn profile, I would probably buy 3-5/year. Obviously I'm not a huge motor burner, but I thought I'd try to answer your question, as I'm sure your goal is to test the market to see if its a good way to proceed. That's my data point!

Best of luck in navigating the regular inflation issues and the added issues due to difficulty in AP supply.

Hope you're having a nice start to 2023!

Sandy.

 

[Loki Research]

To your question Scott, is it possible to sell the loads with a delay welled motor eject forward, but have the touch hole tapped with a small set screw in it? You could sell the load as plugged with tracking smoke. If someone wanted to fly it as motor eject, they could drill the delay accordingly, remove the set screw and add their powder. This would cut your TMT costs way down. Drawback would be that if you flew it motor eject and drilled the delay, they would probably have you and call it EX now and the flyer would have to be L2
I really don’t see any difference when you drill down an AT or CTI delay and add powder as modifying the motor, but that’s above my pay grade

Yes, that is the caveat. If certified as a plugged motor, you would need to be L2 to fly it as an EX motor with a delay bulkhead. Just swap bulkheads. No need for a new part with a thumb screw. You'd be on your own for using it that way though.

People do the opposite now and I don't see using a plugged bulkhead in place of a certified delay bulkhead as making it EX. You're simply disabling the delay ejection and replacing it with a more reliable, plugged component.

 

[tsmith1315]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer?

Yes.

 

[Theory]

Dang this thread took a turn there…

Scott, would absolutely buy “plugged” motor so long as they have the smoke grain for tracking. I own two “ejection” style 38mm fwd bulkheads and neither has ever had BP in it. That said I bought a plugged bulkhead to use with my 38/1200 case, not needed but a little piece of mind.

No doubt you make a great product. Hands down the I405 is the best L1 motor on the market, and am a huge fan of several other 38 and 54mm loads.

 

[COSTransplant]

I'm really surprised that the moderators have not closed this thread by now.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

@Loki Research , Thanks for the explanation on blow by. It makes sense and I had not heard the term. Anyway if you can sell both plugged and ejection charged motors, that would be ideal. Everyone is different, but I would pay extra for motors with ejection charges. You could poll customers to get better feedback as well.

 

[crossfire]

I'm really surprised that the moderators have not closed this thread by now.

Why this post has been very interesting.

 

[Banzai88]

Why this post has been very interesting.

....and not substantively different than the other motor price increase discussions at AT and CTI other than the fact that Scott goes out of his way to pull back the curtain on what's going on with the supply side of the business and the hard choices that a 2 body operation has to face.

In fact, if you were to read those other recent instances, you might likely conclude that many of us have significantly changed our tone as we gain more understanding of the market forces at play.

 

[COSTransplant]

And that is on me. I read early and middle and didn’t read late and I just came back to the thread today and it still seemed a little combative / off topic and I reacted. I should’nt have. My apologies.

 

[Loki Research]

I'm really surprised that the moderators have not closed this thread by now.

Why this post has been very interesting.

Maybe, could he be surprised because many past threads that involve discussion with Loki Research in them, which violated no forum rules somehow got locked prematurely if they didn't stay on the specific OP topic, even though thousands of other threads carry on for years, completely derailed all over the place without any issue or locking at all?

 

[Titan II]

Maybe, could he be surprised because many past threads that involve discussion with Loki Research in them, which violated no forum rules somehow got locked prematurely if they didn't stay on the specific OP topic, even though thousands of other threads carry on for years, completely derailed all over the place without any issue or locking at all?

+1

 

[Loki Research]

So, from my perspective, if you did some 38/480 loads that had no delay and were an interesting burn profile, I would probably buy 3-5/year.

On the 38/480 blue, it's basically an I-405 White, except it's Blue, not just in geometry, but in performance parameters as well. In order to keep it USPS shipable, there isn't a whole lot I can do to make it any more interesting.

About the only difference is it has 1/2" bores and not 7/16" like the white does.