PSA - Loki Price Increase 2022/03/08

[Fattbank64]

In this case, I'd love to see a video of how the sausage is made!!!

You don't.

Trust me.

 

[joe7]

In my opinion the most testing of a new motor is us flyers. Over my 30 years of HPR flying there has been a number of times after a new motor has been released and out at launches failures show up and we are told to stop flying the motor. My own L3 cert flight was held up for 7 months before motor problem was solved. Back than there was very few choices for a L3 motor so we just waited.

Well I heard rumors that early TMT was famous for "losing" sample motors and filing the certification regardless, so the flyers were doing literally all of the testing

 

[Steve Shannon]

Well I heard rumors that early TMT was famous for "losing" sample motors and filing the certification regardless, so the flyers were doing literally all of the testing

I only know three of the TMT chairs (past and present) but I’m very skeptical of that. I’ve not even heard that as a rumor.
In any case we’ve got an extremely good chair now so why bring it up?

 

[Dan Griffing]

Well I heard rumors that early TMT was famous for "losing" sample motors and filing the certification regardless, so the flyers were doing literally all of the testing

Saying “I’ve heard rumors” — is a particularly nasty way to spread baseless anonymous accusations.

There’s no way to defend against such a dishonest and hidden accusation.

So I automatically dismiss all rumors and heresy accusations.

 

[mrwalsh85]

Well I heard rumors that early TMT was famous for "losing" sample motors and filing the certification regardless, so the flyers were doing literally all of the testing

I wouldn't feed the troll. 38 posts, all starting Tuesday... I'd say he joined up to stir the pot behind an alias.

 

[jmasterj]

Not interested in arguing the whys again or anything like that, but another PSA for a Loki price increase from yesterday.

New:
https://lokiresearch.com/secure/store.asp?groupid=831200410431019Last Wayback Machine record (which I'm pretty sure captures the price until 2023-01-18):
https://web.archive.org/web/2022100....com/secure/store.asp?groupid=831200410431019
And yes, I'm necroing my own thread.

 

[Antares JS]

*groan* It's getting to the point where getting 38mm reloads with no hazmat is not much of an advantage.

 

[cwbullet]

Motors are expensive. This is definitely becoming a rich man's hobby.

 

[jmasterj]

*groan* It's getting to the point where getting 38mm reloads with no hazmat is not much of an advantage.

Not if you have the money to order a bunch at once and/or the patience to wait for pre-orders.

 

[Banzai88]

Motors are expensive. This is definitely becoming a rich man's hobby.

Several of us were dog pile excoriated by a few of the (apparently independently wealthy elitist) rocketeers here a few weeks ago for voicing a similar conclusion in one of the other motor threads.

 

[crossfire]

Motors are expensive. This is definitely becoming a rich man's hobby.

Yes I am afraid also this is getting to high priced of a hobby for many.

 

[COSTransplant]

I know I can't affort to buy enough engines to fly as often as I would like.

 

[Loki Research]

It's not like I get a kick out of raising prices to cover our astronomically increasing costs. I don't have the luxury of flying as a hobbyist on the weekends as it is. What I'm worried about is our personal food costs, having to eat something besides eggs for breakfast and protein, or less of them. When we moved here 4 years ago they were $1.00/dozen. Now they are $7/dozen I for the same exact eggs, so we buy whatever is the least expensive at $3.50-$4.00

Please keep in mind that due to our small purchasing power, our materials costs are always much, much higher than that of our two exceedingly larger competitors. It is difficult at best for us to keep closely in line with their pricing structures. It is easier for us however to focus on making a better quality product rather than a less expensive mass produced product. Quality is King. Please remember this when you discuss our prices with others.

Thank you to all of you who are still able and willing to purchase our products. We would not be here without you.
Please remember that as well.

 

[David Schwantz]

Not to say anything, but we all buy eggs at $7.00 a dozen.

 

[Loki Research]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

 

[jmasterj]

All motor prices are going up, I get that. I just like to know when they happen so I can plan better. I was even trying not to complain this time, lol.

 

[jmasterj]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

I still fly L1 motors with motor eject, so that wouldn't be particularly attractive to me. Maybe the 38/1200s, but there's already one of each propellant for that case.

 

[Loki Research]

Not to say anything, but we all buy eggs at $7.00 a dozen.

David, my point being, that in my position, I'm worried about the cost of my food that has tripled, not the cost of a hobby. I haven't been able to participate in it but once a year (if that) for years now. Making rocket motors for the hobby doesn't afford me that time or money, but I will always have to buy food. I'd rather I was in a position to trade eating out expenses or something else for hobby motor flying expenses. Still, I thank the Lord every day for what I do have, because I realize there is always someone else much less fortunate than I am.

 

[crossfire]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

Sounds like you have some good ideas.

 

[David Schwantz]

Scott, we all have to buy food and are in the same position as you are. I wish you nothing but the best. But I am sure lots of folks have had the price increases, as you and I have, and their wages have not gone up. Again, good luck.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I still think, but I am not calculating this every moment, that rocketry prices today are less than they were relative to inflation back in the mid 90s. That being said, all the businesses in hobby rocketry are incentivized to drop prices as low as possible. You are not just competing with each other, but competing against other hobby activities such as astronomy, fishing etc. I hope all the rocket businesses can navigate inflation and stay afloat.

 

[Antares JS]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

Sure, I'd be interested. I rarely fly motors bigger than H with motor eject anyway.

Despite what I said, I'm still a customer. I love your motors.

 

[emckee]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

It's a bit of a trade-off... How would the reduced development costs translate to the commercial motor price?

I'm a west-coast flyer - frequently doing 3-5k' on an I motor, then searching for the rocket in the sage brush. Flyers with lower ceilings (and thus bigger/heavier rockets) probably have different opinions, but: 38/480 is a size where I usually fly with electronic deployment, but can realistically fly with motor eject. I find that I do that less and less, though. (I don't like walking miles to find my rocket - I'd rather be flying).

I would NOT recommend developing motors smaller than this that would require electronic deployment, of course.

-e

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

I fly almost exclusively with electronics, down to 38mm motors. If the motor I'm flying has ejection, I check that it should be after apogee, and if so include it as backup.

That's a long way of saying that I'd gladly fly plugged or long delay only 38mm stuff...

 

[John Kemker]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

Would definitely buy as many as I could afford.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

On a side note, if I was to certify a 38/480 blue (or anything else) that is USPS shipable but did not have an adjustable delay, only a long delay or a plugged closure, would you be willing to buy it if it was at a lower cost and fly it with electronics, since they are so widely available and inexpensive now, and safer? Using a plugged bulkhead, I might even offer this with a money back guarantee that it would not fail. I have that much confidence in it.

This would save me a great deal of time in testing just to get delay times on new loads and time down the road in testing. I'd also only need 1/3rd of the motors required to certify them. It is far easier to make motors out without adjustable delays, and if there is any failure mode weakness in Loki motors of any size, it is only in 38mm with XS and S delay times. That is about 100% of our total motor failures each year, XS and S delay blow by, but I can still count them all on one hand, every year.

Purely speaking for myself, I strongly prefer have motor eject in my rockets as a backup for the electronics. I have never had electronics fail, and maybe I am being irrational, but I like having a separate ejection system which is based purely on pyrotechnics. In other words, having both an electronics AND pyro system is a solid way to make sure the drogue comes out. Electronics require having a solid switch, launch detection, wiring and battering, of which if any fail, the system fails. If anything, I wish the bigger motors had a motor ejection with a long delay for backup.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Purely speaking for myself, I strongly prefer have motor eject in my rockets as a backup for the electronics. I have never had electronics fail, and maybe I am being irrational, but I like having a separate ejection system which is based purely on pyrotechnics. In other words, having both an electronics AND pyro system is a solid way to make sure the drogue comes out. Electronics require having a solid switch, launch detection, wiring and battering, of which if any fail, the system fails. If anything, I wish the bigger motors had a motor ejection with a long delay for backup.

Why? You are far more likely to have blow by or early eject than electronics failure. If you really want a back up, then use a second altimeter.

 

[Conway Stevens]

Purely speaking for myself, I strongly prefer have motor eject in my rockets as a backup for the electronics. I have never had electronics fail, and maybe I am being irrational, but I like having a separate ejection system which is based purely on pyrotechnics. In other words, having both an electronics AND pyro system is a solid way to make sure the drogue comes out. Electronics require having a solid switch, launch detection, wiring and battering, of which if any fail, the system fails. If anything, I wish the bigger motors had a motor ejection with a long delay for backup.

I'm 100% the opposite. I'd rather never use a motor eject if possible I'd rather always use redundant electronic deploy. Once I started doing electronics.... everything was electronics.

Why? You are far more likely to have blow by or early eject than electronics failure. If you really want a back up, then use a second altimeter.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[charrington]

Scott, we all have to buy food and are in the same position as you are. I wish you nothing but the best. But I am sure lots of folks have had the price increases, as you and I have, and their wages have not gone up. Again, good luck.

Unless your income is directly affected by cost of materials than you are not in the same position as Scott is. Most people work jobs that are a set hourly or salary pay through contract. The price of food may go up for everyone but most peoples wages aren't going down at the same time. If the cost of material is going up for Scott, he has to offset that to the consumer or accept a loss of income while living necessities are going up.

 

[David Schwantz]

The cost of diesel has sky rocketed, it is now 1200 bucks to fill my tanks. I do that 3 times a week. Fuel is my largest supply needed. I think that just gave me the right to comment about the cost. I haul food ingredients for YOUR table. Has your box of Wheaties gone up to 12 bucks yet?