NAR PREZ - On "NAR EX"

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GuyNoir

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I've read the threads here regarding the potential for NAR "experimental" motor activities, and want to offer some comments, questions and observations for consideration.

1. Press Coverage

In 2005, I was contacted by a reporter in, I believe, Ohio, who was tracking down details of a "model rocket accident". After conversation, it was clear that someone had been attempting to build motors in their home, had an accident, and that the local fire department and police bomb squad had been called out in response. The reporter specifically asked me, "Mr. Bundick, Mr X had a coffee can of black powder in his workshop. What explosive force would that amount of black powder had, if it had gone off?"

Needless to say, I begged off the answer because I'm not qualified to say.

In nearly every motor making accident I've seen reported to me, in some cases days after its publication, the general media labels the incident as someone "making model rocket motors".

Readers here know the distinctions between our various hobby activities.

John Q. Public does not, and the press doesn't help.

Expecting irate letters to the editor or requests for corrections to these errors after publication to fix the problem will not, and these reports do not help us alert J. Q. Public that our hobby is safe, educational and fun.

People out there practicing what is commonly called "EX" rocketry need to know, should they unfortunately experience an accident, there's a 90%+ chance of it being labeled a "model rocket accident".

This doesn't help ANY form of sport rocketry, from model rocketry to EX, and everything in between.

2. Insurance Impacts

The last data I have, which could be incorrect, says that TRA pays over 2X what the NAR does for insurance. Their insurance, as I understand it, covers their sanctioned activities for EX rocketry.

My question to NAR member is, are you prepared to double NAR insurance costs for the ability to participate in EX? That would be roughly $40,000 or nearly $10 per member. If we asked Level 2 and Level 3 folks to pay for that increase, it would be nearly $40 per member. This is a REAL cost, hard dollars, and NAR members need to say whether this cost is worth it, and who should bear the financial burdens of any EX program.

3. Safety Issues

In addition to that Ohio reporter, I have reports from Chicago, where someone using titanium in motors had an accident, started a fire, resulted in fire and bomb squad personnel responding, and ultimately killed themselves in an accident. The bomb squad, lacking any understanding of HPR technology, carefully removed the 54MM AT casing in the house and blew them up as a safety precaution.

Last year, a Peoria, IL EX model set fire to his garage, destroying it, his cars, his rocketry stuff, his club's equipment, damaged his attached home and spent time in the hospital.

Building motors is tricky stuff, because you're handling energetic materials that need to be treated with care, and under controlled conditions. ALL motor making folks have accidents. It's been a fact of life since the Chinese developed gunpowder. Safety needs to be paramount in the business of making motors.

This is serious stuff, folks, and saying "it's safe" doesn't necessarily make it so.

4. Summary

Having said all of that, John Lyngdal, co-chairman of NAR S&T, a fine rocket flyer, a member of the NAR Board and good friend of mine, practices EX rocketry. It's clear to me that there are many other fine modelers who can practice this stuff safely. And to me, safe rocketry is good rocketry.

When approached in the past about launching an NAR EX program, I've asked the NAR members requesting that, to put together a program that outlines things like:

- what background literature should be made available to and read by folks wanting to participate.

- what physical facilities should be present to safely participate in this activity

- what training, mentoring, tutoring or combination thereof should be done for those interested in this

- what local, regional, state or federal statutes, regulations and ordinance apply to EX participants

To date, no NAR member has put together a comprehensive plan outlining how the NAR can incorporate EX activities safely and legally into the NAR's program of activities.

It's easy to get on the Net and say the NAR 's stuck in the mud on this issue, or that the NAR is anti-rocketry.

This rhetoric does not change the fact that there are real risks to EX participation, that its legal status is unclear at best, and that the general public reacts negatively to any accident by painting all of us with the same brush, ie. "that stuff is unsafe". None of those things is good for the hobby.

I don't enjoy being the "wet blanket" on rocketry activities, but unless and until we squarely confront these questions, I don't see how I, in good conscience, can drive the NAR down this path.
 
I don't enjoy being the "wet blanket" on rocketry activities, but unless and until we squarely confront these questions, I don't see how I, in good conscience, can drive the NAR down this path.

As a NAR member I do not think you are being a wet blanket. You are asking great questions that must be addressed. Just because a few in TRF want to see a NAR EX program does not make it a good idea. And, just because TRA does it does not mean the NAR has to do it too. These are two different organizations with two different mindsets and objectives and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

If you are a NAR member and want to go to an EX launch and participate then get your L2 and get a dual membership. I mean sheez...You're already spending hundreds of dollars on this hobby per year so what's a little more for a TRA membership?

-DAllen
 
Mark:

I don't think you are being a wet blanket either. I think the 4 points you have laid out are more than reasonable.

The media has been calling amateur rocketry, EX rocketry, etc. model rocketry since the beginning of model rocketry.
I doubt that will change anytime soon.

I agree with you that the insurance expenses are seemly prohibitive. .

As far as the safety issues go, my thoughts are, that poop happens, no matter how safety minded you might be. Even with a very strict safety regime, the odds eventually catch up with you.

As for your last point, I would assume that most of the investigation and information have been already been collected by the TRA when they were designing their RR program.

I think everybody now has a much better understanding of some of the major issues confronting the NAR, if they wanted to implement something like this. At least I do, and I , for one, appreciate you taking the time to elaborate
on them.

It appears that if you really want to do RR, then right now, your best bet would be to join the TRA, or just do AR on your own time.

thanks Mark.

Now would you be willing to post the pros and cons of the NAR getting a blanket USPS waiver so that we can buy/sell/trade <30g NA0323 model rocket motors thru the mails?


terry dean
 
Mr. Prez, I have to agree with every word you posted.

Safety is most important. Fundamental to safety is understanding what you are doing, what potential hazards are present, and how to protect yourself from those hazards. I would submit that several of the examples you gave are perfect illustrations of failure to include protection (let's face it, if you come out of an accident with injuries, or if your house burns down, you were not taking proper safety steps). Reading between the lines on many posts, I believe I can often see an attitude of "it has never happened to me yet, so therefore it's never going to," which is a setup for disaster.

If folks want to build their own motors, there is already a way for them to do that.
 
Bunny: Your post has been sorely needed after these past few days of "spirited" discussion. Thanks for giving us your perspective.
 
Last year, a Peoria, IL EX model set fire to his garage, destroying it, his cars, his rocketry stuff, his club's equipment, damaged his attached home and spent time in the hospital.

One a side not here, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, all though I don't believe I am. In the PARS club email I got saying that Pat had a fire at his house, I seem to remember it distinctly saying that the cause of the fire was in no way connected to the "research" motor activities in his garage. It was a totally seperate, but that fire did eventually consume the chems on site.

Mark, thank you for drawing the line in the sand, so to speak, and saying this is the way things are, if you want to change them, here's your instructions.
 
There's a distinct difference between the "basement bomber" making motors from black powder (or other sensitive materials), and the amateur experimenter making APCP. The NAR President does not understand this because his knowledge is limited to the historical information that predates the current TRA Research activities.

The typical injuries in the past were caused by grinding sensitive chemicals, hammering BP into tubes, etc. Making APCP does not requiring sensitive materials or shock/friction producing processes. The accidents "in the news" that claim to be model rockets, are not APCP, but are fireworks chemical related, using sensitive materials and processes not used in TRA Research activities.

This is not to say that a person should be complacent when mixing APCP, just as they should be careful handling other flammable materials (such as fueling their car or lawn mower, or reloading a commercial rocket motor). But it is not the same level of risk as making BP motors, or the old Zinc-Sulfur motors that I'm sure are the historical reference points Bunny has in his knowledge base.

If the concern is truly about safety, then there should be an immediate ban on NAR members using 4FG black powder for altimeter ejection charges. This is by far more dangerous an activity than making APCP because: 1) people assume if it's available in 1lb cans at Walmart, that it can't be all that bad, and 2) they are handling whole 1lb cans at the launch site without understanding the danger. A batch of APCP takes quite a bit of energy to get it started, and is not an explosive (the NAR President should read the arguments in our suit against the ATFE). It'll flame and smoke and generally make a mess. But, a can of BP will remove parts of your body and blow the roof off your car.
 
I first must say that is not intended to be a flame by any means...


By not going EX ( understood ) You can also lead people to try EX on their own without the proper instruction or mentoring & still end up on the six o'clock news.
It does put some distance between the person at hand & the club from a legal stand point.


How can Tripoli's insurance cost twice as much , when the dues are only $8.00 more per year?
If you were to drop "Sport Rocketry" from the membership package how much would you save?



JD


....
 
Mark laid out what needs to be done to get an EX program considered by the NAR. If people really want an EX program then someone - preferably a group - needs to volunteer to do the work that is required to get it presented to the board. Then, if it passes, someone will have to volunteer to do the work to setup the program. Expecting someone else to do the work for you is unrealistic.

Mario
 
I still don't understand why anyone wants the NAR to have a Research program. TRA has a highly successful, safe, and time proven program. If a flier feels that the NAR no longer meets their needs (vis a vis Research Propellant) then they should migrate their activities to TRA. Trying to convince the NAR to adopt research makes about as much sense (to me) as trying to convince the TRA to come up with their own version of the Pink Book for 1/4A streamer duration contests.

just my $.02 YMMV
 
I still don't understand why anyone wants the NAR to have a Research program. TRA has a highly successful, safe, and time proven program. If a flier feels that the NAR no longer meets their needs (vis a vis Research Propellant) then they should migrate their activities to TRA. Trying to convince the NAR to adopt research makes about as much sense (to me) as trying to convince the TRA to come up with their own version of the Pink Book for 1/4A streamer duration contests.

just my $.02 YMMV

I have to side with Al here, well said.

What IS the Point of duplicating what TRA already does? I'm L2 Certed, and a member of TRA as well. If I want to do EX, I will do it under the TRA umbrella. The NAR does not need, nor should it entertain, an EX category. One is in place, and TRA has it. Best of both worlds.:D

So, what is the problem, other than just arguing for the sake of arguing?:pirate::rolleyes:

Jack
NAR 4619
TRA 5434 L2
SoJARS #593
 
Mr. Prez,

Thanks for the clarification. You are NOT a wet blanket. EX is well established in TRA, and has a good record. NAR does not need to "reinvent the wheel,"
so to speak.
Jack
 
I agree, there is no need for the NAR to adopt a motor-making program. Most NAR members don't see the need for NAR contests either. As is common with most organizations, the focus is defined by the interests of a minority core group of members. This is also true with TRA.

Although it's unprecedented for the NAR Prez to make a statement on the topic of NAR "EX", the message is pre-loaded. 1) I'm already against it. 2) My preconceptions are outdated. 3) I don't care enough about it to get the correct background information myself before making a statement.

I think a genuine "NO WAY, MAN" would have been more sincere. ;)
 
The media wants one thing sensationalism....that's what sells, so they will in an effort to sell, mold stories to what sells. As far as them asking about BP and it's properties, I would have refered them to GOEX, the sole manufacturer of BP in the US, if you want to practice EX sign up with TRA, they have an excellent record with that aspect of the hobby, guns, knives, BP, rocks, 2X4's all these things can kill someone, BUT only when used BY someone, EX is only unsafe when someone unsafe employs it. Let's be careful not to "paint" EX as unsafe when it is not. As rocketry grows and evolves the public will need greater and greater clarification and understanding into our sport, this is part of our mission as well.EX does attract a small but important part of enthusiasts to our sport, and when properly trained and properly employed, they are as safe as we are. So I think even if we don't want to personally fly EX we should embrace it and support it as part of our sport and the people who wish to do it SAFELY. That being said, if you really are interested in it contact TRA, get 5 people together and start a prefect etc...we're all on the same side.

Drew
 
Most NAR members don't see the need for NAR contests either. As is common with most organizations, the focus is defined by the interests of a minority core group of members.
What focus? General model rocketry issues are covered at NARCON. High power rocketry is covered at NSL. Contest rocketry is covered at NARAM. NARTREK focuses on developing rocketry skills. IMHO the NAR seems to cover the model rocketry spectrum pretty well.

Mario
 
It appears both supporters and detractors have had their say. This thread was starting to go into both politics and personal attack, so it's being closed.
 
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