Launch and....... crash

[mikewrt]

Launched a few rockets early this morning. Many great flights and recoveries within a few steps from the pad. I also had a dud where the parachute on an Estes Zinger stayed in the body tube. Nose cone ejected but the laundry stayed in the air frame. Since the nose ejected it didn't come in ballistic but the body tube crinkled from a hard landing square on the motor hook. At first I figured I had packed the wadding or chute too tight. I went on to fly another model successfully, can't end the day on a belly flop! This afternoon I was inspecting the burnt motor from the flop and upon looking in the ejection end found that over half the clay was still in the motor on the dud. The other 1/2A3-4T that I flew in the Zinger immediately before worked fine with a good ejection at the top. This situation wasn't unique I had this same failure mode on an Estes Gnome from the same package of motors on a different launch day. Even though the ejection charge fired it didn't seem to work as it should and I would call this a malfunction. Do you agree? Should I file a MESS report? Should I notify Estes with my issue? Details and photos of both motors and damage below...

Model 1: Estes Zinger
Model 2: Estes Gnome

Motors: 1/2A3-4T Lot Code: A071417

 

[Off Grid Gecko]

Those little 1/2A's usually work perfectly for me. I don't know about "should's" but I would definitely scrap the other motor in the pack. Maybe tie a stick to it and make a bottle rocket
Sucks that your birdie got a broken wing though. It happens. If you can salvage the fin can and motor mount, you could rebuild it as "Zinger's Revenge"

 

[MALBAR 70]

I had the same issue a couple of weeks ago with A10 motors. We flew my son's Custom Razor on an A10 in an Estes 13/18mm adapter. The flights were great, only the ejection charge was too weak to get the laundry out. Upon inspection, the clay caps from the two flights, we tried a second flight to see if it was operator error, and both motors had more than half of the clay cap still intact. I put it down to the use of the adapter (it was our first time using one) at the time, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Zeus-cat]

Estes ejection charges range from gnat sneeze to shotgun ejection. It could have been the motor, it could have been how you packed the chute. I always make sure the parachute or streamer slides easily in the body tube. As I tell people loading their first rocket, it ain't a muzzle loader, don't ram everything in there.

 

[KennB]

You should file a MESS report at motorcato.org. It's not just for CATO's; I'd encourage everyone to have a look at the Report page to see what information can be submitted.

You'll have to describe the Failure Data as Other and explain that while part of the cap was blown out, the ejection charge was too weak to eject the recovery device.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Estes ejection charges range from gnat sneeze to shotgun ejection. It could have been the motor, it could have been how you packed the chute. I always make sure the parachute or streamer slides easily in the body tube. As I tell people loading their first rocket, it ain't a muzzle loader, don't ram everything in there.

I've started using copious amounts of talc with my rockets. I also noticed that I need to repack the parachute before flight. If the parachute has been in the tube for too long, it expands making it more difficult to eject.

 

[mikewrt]

I contacted Estes regarding my issue above via email on 5/25 looking for insight if I had defective motors etc. In my experience Estes customer service has typically responded within a business day or two. On 6/5 I still hadn't heard back and realized that my large attachment size may have caused a delivery problem so I emailed again early that morning. What is others experience? Do you typically hear back from customer service regarding what I perceive to be a malfunction?

 

[mikewrt]

Interesting, never got an email reply from Estes??? This is the first time I've never gotten a reasonably quick response from a rocket vendor. Oh well. I'll call it a fluke, moving on....

 

[mikewrt]

Follow up.... I did finally hear from Estes customer service last week. They apologized for the delay replying, answered a couple questions I had and as a nice surprise let me choose a couple goodies for the warranty claim which they promptly shipped 8/7 and were in my mail box on 8/10. Big shout out and thumbs up to Estes!

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Follow up.... I did finally hear from Estes customer service last week. They apologized for the delay replying, answered a couple questions I had and as a nice surprise let me choose a couple goodies for the warranty claim which they promptly shipped 8/7 and were in my mail box on 8/10. Big shout out and thumbs up to Estes!

Usually it takes 2 to 3 weeks to get a package from Estes. Of course it is free shipping to Hawaii...

 

[rocketman4h]

I can possibly see a couple of things that may have caused these issues.
1. Never store parachutes in the rocket - nearly all material has memory so a packed chute can remain packed if kept in the rocket
2. do not wrap the parachute with the shroud line... tri fold the chute then lay the shroud lines and as much shock cord as you can in the chute then fold it small enough to easily fit in the body tube
3. Baby Powder does wonders for the recovery system. It keeps it all slick and adds a great puff of white at ejection

 

[BABAR]

I can possibly see a couple of things that may have caused these issues.
1. Never store parachutes in the rocket - nearly all material has memory so a packed chute can remain packed if kept in the rocket
2. do not wrap the parachute with the shroud line... tri fold the chute then lay the shroud lines and as much shock cord as you can in the chute then fold it small enough to easily fit in the body tube
3. Baby Powder does wonders for the recovery system. It keeps it all slick and adds a great puff of white at ejection

All good, especially packing just before launch. I also try to fold it a bit differently every time, i.e., use a different first 1/2 fold line.

For low power Should be able to take motor out and blow the cone, chute, and wadding out easily with your breath .

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

For low power Should be able to take motor out and blow the cone, chute, and wadding out easily with your breath .

You have stronger lungs than I do! I assume as long as I can turn the rocket upside down and the nose pops off, it's probably ok.

 

[BABAR]

You have stronger lungs than I do! I assume as long as I can turn the rocket upside down and the nose pops off, it's probably ok.

It needs to be more than just the nose, the chute and wadding need to come out easily.

Good examples were the Estes nose-cone helicopter rockets, the Cosmic Cobra vs the Helicat

Both had a nose cone with collapsible blades that fit in the rocket for launch and ascent, nose cone co pletely separated from the rocket at ejection (hopefully at apogee!), with a chute bringing down the rocket body and fins separately.

Both had the same nose


Stolen from https://www.stormthecastle.com/model-rockets/estes-cosmic-cobra-rocket.htm

Fin cans were similar but reversed, cobra swept forward and helical back.

But the BIG difference was the body tube length, look at Cosmic Cobra second pic vs Helicat first


The Cobra barely had any room for chute and wadding after you put the nose cone and the blades in it, as a consequence failures were common. The Helicat had PLENTY of space and wasn’t a problem.