Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

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I often hear an argument against EV cars that we are just shifting the fossil fuel burning to an electric generation plant. Well, California just hit a huge milestone last weekend, delivering nearly 100% of energy demand from renewable sources on Saturday. The majority being from desert solar and over 1M solar homes. There is more work to do to sustain this and expand to the rest of the country, but it is a huge W for humanity.

Even if you love oil (burning fuel in rockets is fun!), there is no doubt that the improved air quality is better for everyone. I was in LA during the 80’s and we had stage 3 smog alerts every week. It was like smoking a pack a day working outside. We should have been wearing PPE. Now there hasn’t been a smog alert in as long as I can remember.

https://www.desertsun.com/story/new...ent-powered-renewables-first-time/9609975002/
 
AllDigital said:
I often hear an argument against EV cars that we are just shifting the fossil fuel burning to an electric generation plant.
Click to expand...

That argument is always from someone who hasn't bothered to make or find a calculation that supports it. They come up with it, think they're the first, and assume EV owners are ignorant. But a coal plant charging 100 EVs emits less GHG than 100 ICEs. If you need a report, I have some lying around. I posted a few in another threat in here ("ICEs and EVs" or something).

AllDigital said:
Well, California just hit a huge milestone last weekend, delivering nearly 100% of energy demand from renewable sources on Saturday. The majority being from desert solar and over 1M solar homes. There is more work to do to sustain this and expand to the rest of the country, but it is a huge W for humanity.
Click to expand...

Cool! I like good news.

AllDigital said:
Even if you love oil (burning fuel in rockets is fun!), there is no doubt that the improved air quality is better for everyone. I was in LA during the 80’s and we had stage 3 smog alerts every week. It was like smoking a pack a day working outside. We should have been wearing PPE. Now there hasn’t been a smog alert in as long as I can remember.
Click to expand...

LA has visible effects, so they have greater support for EVs. Elsewhere, the effects aren't so direct and immediate so unless you're into science, causality isn't obvious. But in recent years, EVs have enough benefits, that it isn't even necessary to discuss emissions and annoy the cynics.

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Doug DeMuro on the BMW i4.



I like it. But I’d like it better without any blue trims or any indication that it’s electric. I can tell by listening. An EV is not a side show.

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Not sure what to think of this “BeTriton”. Interesting because it’s very original (now THIS is what I’d call a side show), but I’m wondering:
How many people have a use for it.
How many of them would use it often enough to justify buying it.
How many of them would actually buy it.
:dontknow:

https://www.businessinsider.com/betriton-electric-all-in-one-camper-rv-boat-and-trike-2022-4
 
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Funkworks said:
And a Rivian ad:
Click to expand...

I’m seeing a lot more Rivians in the wild. There are 2-3 in my neighborhood. I would consider a Rivian but I really want more range in a truck. Tesla is talking about 500 mile range in the Cyber truck. Time will tell.

Rivian, like all new companies, is going to have a few years of teething issues. A friend of a friend decided to sell his Rivian with only a few thousand miles on it, but Rivian had no way to transfer a vehicle (phone app, account, etc) to another person. They said he was only the second person to do a private party sale. They will work through these new company growing pains, but it will take a while. I think it is a beautiful truck.
 
AllDigital said:
I’m seeing a lot more Rivians in the wild. There are 2-3 in my neighborhood. I would consider a Rivian but I really want more range in a truck. Tesla is talking about 500 mile range in the Cyber truck. Time will tell.

Rivian, like all new companies, is going to have a few years of teething issues. A friend of a friend decided to sell his Rivian with only a few thousand miles on it, but Rivian had no way to transfer a vehicle (phone app, account, etc) to another person. They said he was only the second person to do a private party sale. They will work through these new company growing pains, but it will take a while. I think it is a beautiful truck.
Click to expand...

What I realized since driving a plug-in hybid is that:

- On a regular workday, I don't drive more than 25 miles. So any EV would be enough for this purpose.

- On a regular week end, I never do more than a 2 x 200 mile trip where I can recharge midway at the 200 mile point before coming back. So a 300 mile range EV would be enough for me (the extra 100 miles would be a buffer for when I miss an exit 😆).

- On a vacation road trip, a 300-mile range is also more than enough to go from one fast charging station to another. I don't do road trips often enough to care about the 30-min charging time. It's not relevant to me, but it might be for a pro who does 300-mile trips monthly or so.

So I think for most people, a 200 to 300 mile range is enough. The only advantages I see with a greater range are:

- if I'd have to use fast charging more often than monthly (although I don't mind a 30-min lunch break),
- if I had to spend the night where there aren't any chargers,
- if I only wanted to bother plugging the car at home once a week, instead of every few days.

Not saying I'm covering all case, but 250-300 would be enough for me.

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"North America’s share of the global battery capacity is set to grow to 10% by 2026 from 6% currently, according to Benchmark, while Europe’s is set to grow to 12% from 7%".
 
Funkworks said:
- On a regular workday, I don't drive more than 25 miles. So any EV would be enough for this purpose.

- On a regular week end, I never do more than a 2 x 200 mile trip where I can recharge midway at the 200 mile point before coming back. So a 300 mile range EV would be enough for me (the extra 100 miles would be a buffer for when I miss an exit 😆).

- On a vacation road trip, a 300-mile range is also more than enough to go from one fast charging station to another. I don't do road trips often enough to care about the 30-min charging time. It's not relevant to me, but it might be for a pro who does 300-mile trips monthly or so.

So I think for most people, a 200 to 300 mile range is enough. The only advantages I see with a greater range are:

- if I'd have to use fast charging more often than monthly (although I don't mind a 30-min lunch break),
- if I had to spend the night where there aren't any chargers,
- if I only wanted to bother plugging the car at home once a week, instead of every few days.

Not saying I'm covering all case, but 250-300 would be enough for me.

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"North America’s share of the global battery capacity is set to grow to 10% by 2026 from 6% currently, according to Benchmark, while Europe’s is set to grow to 12% from 7%".
Click to expand...

I have the 200-mile standard battery in my Mach E, and I have a daily 40-mile commute each way. The commute to work each day isn't a problem unless I have to run a bunch of errands after work. Those miles add up faster than you think. It's pretty easy for me to drive 160 miles on a "normal" day. I have put 17k miles on the car since I bought it 6 months ago.

One of the launch sites that I occasionally attend is 97 miles away, so I need to charge for 15 minutes on the way home, but that's never been a problem.

I agree with you, the extended 300-mile battery would give peace of mind and make road trips more feasible.
 
Funkworks said:
So I think for most people, a 200 to 300 mile range is enough. The only advantages I see with a greater range are:
Click to expand...

I completely agree. We've got two Teslas and the only time we've needed a super charger is driving to Vegas, San Francisco, or a long road trip. They both clock over 300 miles of range, but we rarely use half in a day.

For the truck, I want the 500 mile option, because when we go to FAR on weekends it is about a 200 mile drive each way and we do a lot of desert driving hunting for rockets. This is harsh conditions with 120 degree days. The day is already long with 7 hours of total driving and I'd rather not have to stop and charge. This is still the one use case for me that requires longer range, which is why I still own an ICE truck.
 
My perception of range has changed since the floods and landslides meant travelling on different roads and taking longer routes. Yesterday, for example, went to buy groceries and dropped the kids at an overnight party. That's all.

Except instead of ~80 km (~50 miles) it was ~350 km (~217 miles). Not travelling, just buying groceries and dropping off the kids. :confused:
 
boomtube-mk2 said:
How does the above article jive with the article below?
Click to expand...
A Saturday in May is about as low as it gets for demand, so it makes sense that they hit 100% of renewables now. California has also lost a lot of grid to wildfires and had a lot of plants shut down (e.g., SONGS nuclear plant used to generate 2200 MW), so forecasting being short 1700 MW on a peak day in the summer also makes sense. It also wouldn't surprise me if the generating companies keep their assets to a minimum, so they can make money turning on those high margin peaker plants during high demand.
 
boomtube-mk2 said:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/ds-e-tense-imagines-future-163100575.html

If they could pull this off, and make it inexpensive enough for mid-level vehicles, it could be a game changer in vehicle design.
Click to expand...

Seems like even the concept car has mechanical brakes for safety (but they don't use them). Not holding my breath but I like knowing that someone is exploring the idea of regen braking alone.

"Regenerative braking ... is always used in addition to traditional disc brakes. DS Automobiles, though, is looking further in the future and exploring the idea of doing away with conventional rotors and hydraulic calipers. The advantages to such a setup include a weight reduction from getting rid of heavy disc brake hardware (which on most cars usually include steel, rather than lighter carbon rotors).

But harnessing all of the braking energy, rather than letting it go to waste as heat generated from the friction of the pads pushing on discs, is great for efficiency too, because it can be channeled back into charging the battery."

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/d...-concept-thinks-future-cars-wont-have-brakes/https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a39927690/ds-e-tense-regenerative-brakes/https://www.media.stellantis.com/em-en/ds/press/ds-e-tense-performance-driving-future
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Ford Lightning review:


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Glencore and Li-cycle on lithium recycling and supply chain:
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...-to-Make-a-200-Million-Investment-in-Li-Cycle
 
Funkworks said:
The advantages to such a setup include a weight reduction from getting rid of heavy disc brake hardware (which on most cars usually include steel, rather than lighter carbon rotors).
Click to expand...
Getting rid of all that disc and caliper weight is more important than one might believe. All of that stuff with its weight/mass is on the wrong side of the suspension.
This is known as "Un-sprung weight" and it is considered a Bad Thing.
Ridding a vehicle of it improves handling, especially on bumpy roads.

And yes, you are very unlikely to see carbon rotors on anything but overwhelming expensive "Supercars".
Even a set for a motorcycle will set you back a bunch of $$$$$$$.
 
Greg Furtman said:
I looked for some more info on the Admiral Makarov this morning and have found nothing that I would call reliable. I wonder what's up with this. Did it get hit by Neptunes? Has anyone found some news that is reliable?
Click to expand...

I think the above was misplaced, but just to tie things together, I gave an answer here.

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"XL Fleet turns many of the most popular class 2-6 vehicles from Ford, GM, and Isuzu into hybrid electric vehicles, without disrupting their performance. We make them cleaner and more fuel efficient while leaving the OEM powertrain (engine, transmission, fuel and exhaust systems) completely intact."

https://www.xlfleet.com/vehicles/
XL Fleet also has a fully electric refuse truck. I'm not crazy about shouting out power train specs.

prd-curbtender.png
 
boomtube-mk2 said:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/electric-car-charging-stations-becoming-162212118.html
This is something they had better get a handle on really quick or there's going to be public pushback on these companies.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. I have grumbled about this a little bit before. If I were trying to road trip non-Tesla EV I would probably be doing more than grumbling.

Fortunately the one DC fast charger I now use fairly regularly (at the Fred Meyer across I-405 from Sixty Acres), while it's big advertising screen is messed up and the left hand side payment reader won't recognize my Blink card, the right side works fine and it charges just fine. But clearly it is in need of some attention from Blink for full functionality, even if I now know how to use it without problems. Perhaps I should check out the new Electrify America charger installation that's just a little further west...and vote with my dollars.
 
Another related issue is that cost per minute and/or cost per kWh should be displayed before you start charging. It isn't expensive, but I only ever know what I paid for after the charge (or in real-time, via App).
 
Sooner Boomer said:
Batteries/chargers will always be a problem. There were a bunch of "Hoverboards" that were recalled years back because the batteries caught fire/exploded while charging.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-fire-ebike-batteries
Click to expand...

"Always?" 🤔🤨

I don't think one particular bunch of hoverboards from years ago means very much, after GM has recalled thousands of cars last year, and is starting construction on billion dollar battery plants, like almost every other car manufacturer.

It's like aviation, safer and safer as days go by. Bad chemistries are avoided and safe ones are kept. Battery engineers can compromise between range, performance, and safety risks. Cell phones, 12V car batteries and hobby LiPo cells have no issues, because they've been tested over many years.

I don't want to get into ICE vehicles here, but this is what one company is saying:

"Fire incidents are ~11x lower for Tesla vehicles than the average vehicle in the U.S. When the media reports a story about a vehicle fire, it is usually reporting on an EV fire. This is likely a result of chasing clicks, rather than the prevalence of EV-related fires compared to ICE vehicle-related fires. The reality is, when compared to Tesla vehicles, ICE vehicles catch fire at a vastly higher rate. According to the latest available data, in 2020, there were almost 173,000 vehicle fires in the U.S. alone."

https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf
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What is a vertiport?

"Vertiports are simply airports for eVTOLs, which take off and land vertically, hence the “verti” prefix. They’re for eVTOLs what heliports are for helicopters, and airports are for aeroplanes. However, vertiports will be so much more than a landing spot for eVTOLs. Current developers intend to sell an experience as much as a convenience, partly to drum up hype for the coming eVTOL revolution."

https://automationswitch.com/vertiports-for-evtol/

https://archer.com/news/what-is-a-vertiport

https://www.flyingmag.com/worlds-first-evtol-vertiport-opens-in-united-kingdom/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ry-Air-One-serve-hub-drones-flying-taxis.html"
 
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Less fires, but the ones that do get started can't be extinguished.
And - nothing like quoting Tesla regarding Tesla fires....they are major spin doctors.....
 
FredA said:
Less fires, but the ones that do get started can't be extinguished.
And - nothing like quoting Tesla regarding Tesla fires....they are major spin doctors.....
Click to expand...

I picked Tesla because I happen to know about that report and I had it in mind. Don't expect me to guess each reader's favorite source (you have some?). They use data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation:

"From 2012 to 2021, there has been approximately five Tesla vehicle fires for every billion miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation show that in the U.S. there are 53 vehicle fires for every billion miles travelled."
 
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FredA said:
Less fires, but the ones that do get started can't be extinguished.
And - nothing like quoting Tesla regarding Tesla fires....they are major spin doctors.....
Click to expand...
Not entirely disagreeing about quoting any company about their company's safety record*, but ICE car fires were so common in the DC metro area that one of the local traffic reports started calling them "car-beques" without having to explain the joke. ICE car fires happen every week or two in major metro areas and don't make the news.

* See, for example, Boeing's statements in the wake of the first 737 Max crash.
 
FredA said:
Less fires, but the ones that do get started can't be extinguished.
Click to expand...
Best Practices for Emergency Response to Incidents involving Electric Vehicle Battery Hazards: A Report on Full-scale Testing Results
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...nd-reports/Electrical/EV-BatteriesPart-1.ashx
  • Appropriate PPE to be used for responding to fires involving EDV batteries
  • Tactics for suppression of fires involving EDV batteries
  • Best practices during overhaul and post-fire clean-up
    operations
 

Attachments

  • EV BatteriesPart 1.pdf
    4.7 MB · Views: 0
There is little doubt that (a) ICE car fires are much more common, and (b) BEV fires are much more troublesome. This is another area where solid state batteries should improve things, but they're still some years away.
 
How many ICE fires are caused by shade-tree mechanics working on old cars?
If you could sort out those I bet the stats look much better.
 

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