Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[neil_w]

Most Americans live in apartments and condos, and don't have the ability to charge at home. Many others can charge only at Level 1, which require 10 hours or more for full charge.

This is a legitimate problem that will need to be solved.

even "Superchargers" require over an hour for full charge.

That is false. Although obviously charging takes longer than filling up a tank with gas, 30-40 minutes is more realistic.

Yes delivery logistics are inferior now for hydrogen, but like superchargers (which are not widespread either) that will change with adoption of fuel cell vehicles just like with battery cars. At least you can store hydrogen in tanks, which are much cheaper than huge batteries. Infrastructure evolves.

It's not going to happen. Make a note and check back here in 10 years. I predict you'll see massive BEV rollout and infrastructure improvement and almost no progress on (or perhaps abandonment of) fuel cell light vehicles (i.e. cars).

[edit] I should add: I have no philosophical objection to hydrogen fuel cells. I just don't think the end-to-end solution is going to be able to compete with batteries for a very long time, if ever, at least not for light vehicles.

 

[KC3KNM]

Most Americans live in apartments and condos, and don't have the ability to charge at home. Many others can charge only at Level 1, which require 10 hours or more for full charge.

I take a break every 200-300 miles when traveling, but only for a few minutes not hours. Most chargers are Level 1 or 2; even "Superchargers" require over an hour for full charge.

Yes delivery logistics are inferior now for hydrogen, but like superchargers (which are not widespread either) that will change with adoption of fuel cell vehicles just like with battery cars. At least you can store hydrogen in tanks, which are much cheaper than huge batteries. Infrastructure evolves.

You'll never see a battery-powered rocket.

More and more apartments and condos are offering EV charging. We've got 5 spots for my building alone, with something like 25 in the complex total. Also have spots at work, a fair amount of grocery stores, etc...

I think the argument is you can pop a charger in pretty much anywhere with grid access for a relatively small investment, while the amount of infrastructure to get hydrogen to people is significantly higher and thus more wasteful (before even looking at energy losses along the chain).

I don't think we'll ever see Honda produce a Civic powered by SRBs, either.

 

[boatgeek]

I take a break every 200-300 miles when traveling, but only for a few minutes not hours. Most chargers are Level 1 or 2; even "Superchargers" require over an hour for full charge.

Batteries can be charged to 80% relatively quickly; the last 20% takes longer. People on longer road trips recommend charging to 80% instead of 100% for that reason.

Yes delivery logistics are inferior now for hydrogen, but like superchargers (which are not widespread either) that will change with adoption of fuel cell vehicles just like with battery cars. At least you can store hydrogen in tanks, which are much cheaper than huge batteries. Infrastructure evolves.

Don't forget that hydrogen is very slippery, so it tends to get out of tanks, much like helium from balloons. If you leave your hydrogen fuel cell car idle for a few weeks, you might get an unpleasant surprise of being out of (H2) gas. Likewise, any storage facility will be constantly losing fuel. See also, SLS issues with H2 leaks.

 

[Pete.D]

Although obviously charging takes longer than filling up a tank with gas, 30-40 minutes is more realistic.

That may be your perception representing your personal practice, but you're not getting a FULL charge in 40 minutes no matter how powerful the charger: the limitation is in the battery's internal temperature and resistance.

You're probably pulling in with 10 or 20% remaining, and charging to maybe 70% in that time. From a cool start, a Lithium battery can absorb around 50% of full KWh rating relatively quickly, but then it heats up and the charge rate is reduced considerably especially in the last 20% even with active cooling.

And that's for a battery meeting NEW specifications. As the battery ages, in a few years its internal resistance increases significantly while capacity decreases. Batteries are so expensive, people will just get a new car at that time if they need the advertised range.

All that said, battery vehicles are still very good if you're just going to the grocery store, the commuter train station, or a friend's place a few miles away. The rich people that can afford them will take air travel to go very far beyond that, probably in their own plane or air taxi.

 

[neil_w]

You're probably pulling in with 10 or 20% remaining, and charging to maybe 70% in that time. From a cool start, a Lithium battery can absorb around 50% of full KWh rating relatively quickly, but then it heats up and the charge rate is reduced considerably especially in the last 20% even with active cooling.

Charge time from 0-100% is largely irrelevant; no one does that on a road trip. 10%-80% (or something in that ballpark) is more typical; that's the time that matters.

All that said, battery vehicles are still very good if you're just going to the grocery store, the commuter train station, or a friend's place a few miles away.

And once again we've devolved into the "BEVs are not practical for anything other than short trips" fallacy, which completely ignores the fact that large numbers of BEV owners happily use them for much more than that, including road trips.

And for the nth time, BEV skepticism is not the topic of this thread.

 

[AeroTech]

Millions of ordinary people are thoroughly enjoying their EVs and not paying attention to the red herring arguments, and the manufacturers can’t make them fast enough to keep up with demand. Regarding the “only good for the grocery store” comment, the wife makes several 3,000+ mile round trips a year to Arkansas with no issue. On the last trip she left in the morning and arrived mid-afternoon the next day.

Also it should be noted that about 70% of Americans live in single family homes, which is not a minority.

 

[AeroTech]

This is a legitimate problem that will need to be solved.

That is false. Although obviously charging takes longer than filling up a tank with gas, 30-40 minutes is more realistic.

It's not going to happen. Make a note and check back here in 10 years. I predict you'll see massive BEV rollout and infrastructure improvement and almost no progress on (or perhaps abandonment of) fuel cell light vehicles (i.e. cars).

[edit] I should add: I have no philosophical objection to hydrogen fuel cells. I just don't think the end-to-end solution is going to be able to compete with batteries for a very long time, if ever, at least not for light vehicles.

Remember that fuel cell vehicles require batteries too.

 

[Funkworks]

Most Americans live in apartments and condos, and don't have the ability to charge at home.

Personnally, I don't really mind if home owners get EVs first.

Many others can charge only at Level 1, which require 10 hours or more for full charge.

I usually charge my used Hyundai PHEV with level 1. I never have to charge from an empty battery, only about 20 miles worth a day. It takes 2-3 hours, usually done before night time. My workplace got a Level 2 charger a few weeks ago and I now use that too. Charges my 1-way commute in 30 minutes while I read the news before work.

I take a break every 200-300 miles when traveling, but only for a few minutes not hours. Most chargers are Level 1 or 2; even "Superchargers" require over an hour for full charge.

No one waits hours on a road trip. 30 minutes at most while eating a muffin, posting silly stuff on TRF or playing video games in the car.

Yes delivery logistics are inferior now for hydrogen, but like superchargers (which are not widespread either) that will change with adoption of fuel cell vehicles just like with battery cars. At least you can store hydrogen in tanks, which are much cheaper than huge batteries. Infrastructure evolves.

Not widespread? Not overly marketed with huge signs like gas stations, but both public DC chargers and Tesla superchargers are widespread enough to cover most people.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/https://www.tesla.com/superchargerhttps://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point

You'll never see a battery-powered rocket.

Me? I could store solar in a battery, and use the battery to make hydrogen.



A battery-powered submarine! (the battery can be charged any way you like, more freedom than ever)

https://www.uboatworx.com/model/cruisesub

 

[Funkworks]

All that said, battery vehicles are still very good if you're just going to the grocery store, the commuter train station, or a friend's place a few miles away.

Here's a neat charty-thingy with the range of recent EVs.
(unfortunately, I don't know anything about this site, I just like the chart)

https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/Every-Electric-Car-2021-06.jpg?itok=vJ35_vr3It won't post in full-res but if you download it, it will be in full-res.

 

[SDramstad]

Most Americans live in apartments and condos, and don't have the ability to charge at home. Many others can charge only at Level 1, which require 10 hours or more for full charge.

I take a break every 200-300 miles when traveling, but only for a few minutes not hours. Most chargers are Level 1 or 2; even "Superchargers" require over an hour for full charge.

Yes delivery logistics are inferior now for hydrogen, but like superchargers (which are not widespread either) that will change with adoption of fuel cell vehicles just like with battery cars. At least you can store hydrogen in tanks, which are much cheaper than huge batteries. Infrastructure evolves.

You'll never see a battery-powered rocket.

Actually the thrusters on the starlink satellites are electric powered

 

[neil_w]

Here's a neat charty-thingy with the range of recent EVs. I swear if you try one you'll have fun.
View attachment 516181

Can you post a full-res version, or a link to the original?

 

[kuririn]

You'll never see a battery-powered rocket.

The fuel pumps on the Rocketlabs Electron are powered by Li-Po battery packs which drop away when they are no longer needed.
PS I should also mention that the rocket is 3D printed. Innovation all around.

 

[Funkworks]

Can you post a full-res version, or a link to the original?

Um .... apparently no. When I download the chart, I have full-res but when I post it here, it become choppy. I found the link again and posted it, but the site is a bit strange for my tastes. See edited post.

Edit: site and article touches on politics. But chart is from Car & Driver.

 

[kuririn]

If and when the infrastructure for refueling FCVs comes about then I would consider getting one. Right now there is only ONE (1) publicly available hydrogen fueling station at a Toyota dealership a few miles from my residence. That's on the entire island.
Longer range, faster refueling compared to EVs.
Besides Toyota, Hyundai and Honda also have a FCV model.
Much nicer looking, roomier, and more powerful than the first iteration of Mirais and Claritys a few years ago. The technology is maturing.

 

[AeroTech]

Me? I could store solar in a battery, and use the battery to make hydrogen.

You could also use solar power to make AP.

 

[kuririn]

=

You could also use solar power to make AP.

Or to dry clothes.

 

[Funkworks]

You could also use solar power to make AP.

Me, not sure ... but it's good to know some could! ☀

If and when the infrastructure for refueling FCVs comes about then I would consider getting one. Right now there is only ONE (1) publicly available hydrogen fueling station at a Toyota dealership a few miles from my residence. That's on the entire island.
Longer range, faster refueling compared to EVs.

I think the longer the required range, the more justifiable fuel cells are. For cars, it seems hard to justify. No one really needs a 400 mile range. What they (we) need is more charging stations. My last gas car, a 2007 European V6, had less than 400 miles. IMO, it's the presence of gas stations everywhere that makes people forget about about range.

Better info on range:
https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/


Dallas getting electric police cars:
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/d...ase-3-teslas-for-law-enforcement-use/2944306/

 

[OverTheTop]

Wish I had one of these when I had that summer job long ago.

View attachment 515887

https://www.lowes.com/pl/Ego--Cordl...t-Outdoors/4294612706?refinement=510239265097

I have an EGO mower. Fantastic. Will cut up decent size branches if I run over them. Nice powerful motor. Battery latching mechanism is well designed. It fills the catcher up all the way which is great. No more gas and two-stroke oil. Recommended .

 

[rocket_troy]

I have an EGO mower. Fantastic.

Indeed +1. I have 2 of them - x1 self propelled and the other standard. I highly recommend the self propelled flavour especially for those of us old fellas!

TP

 

[FredA]

had less than 400 miles. IMO, it's the presence of gas stations everywhere that makes people forget about about range.

INFRASTRUCTURE and CHARGE TIMES.
Not enough charge stations being built and if you can find one, charging takes much longer than filling up the gas tank so they need to be BIG.

Also - here there has been a war on cars for the last decade or more - no parking for apartments or businesses.
Where are people supposed to charge?

 

[neil_w]

This whole podcast is worth a listen (I am subscribed) but this link will take you to a few minutes of specific discussion about the difficulties of hydrogen distribution, and the consequences thereof.
https://overcast.fm/+0_shFqX5I/22:29

 

[Antares JS]

PS I should also mention that the rocket is 3D printed. Innovation all around.

Some of the engine parts in the Electron are 3D printed, but not the whole rocket. It's Relativity Space that is trying to 3D print the whole rocket.

 

[Funkworks]

Indeed +1. I have 2 of them - x1 self propelled and the other standard. I highly recommend the self propelled flavour especially for those of us old fellas!

Well I have a self-propelled robotic vacuum cleaner, so there!

INFRASTRUCTURE and CHARGE TIMES.
Not enough charge stations being built and if you can find one, charging takes much longer than filling up the gas tank so they need to be BIG.

Also - here there has been a war on cars for the last decade or more - no parking for apartments or businesses.
Where are people supposed to charge?

Ok well I already posted a few websites with maps. I'd also like to have more built at a faster rate but the present situation is actually good enough for me. I don't do road trips very often.

In practice, to find a charging station, people don't look for road signs, they use smartphone Apps, or the GPS that's included in each EV. But again, that's only for road trips.

And again, few people drive more than the range of an EV daily. It's easier for home owners to charge, but if you're in an appartment and want an EV, this can help:

https://www.chargepoint.com/solutions/apartments
In my case, I use a 110V outdoor outlet. But it's a PHEV, so if my battery runs low, I switch over to pistons and then I can outlive anything else on the road. If you want an EV and live in an appartement, maybe you can start with a PHEV too. I don't know, just random ideas.

 

[Brad Willmore]

I’m afraid fuel cell cars will never be mainstream. Too inefficient, too expensive and too much infrastructure required.
https://electrek.co/2022/02/15/stud...annot-catch-up-battery-electric-vehicles/amp/

Probably better to think of fuel cells for homes rather than cars. 60-65% conversion efficiency on natural gas, versus 30-35% efficiency at the thermal power plant, and another 5% loss in transmission.

That's not a pure, renewable strategy of course, just a theoretical argument that it would be more efficient to convert to a distributed generation system; hook your fuel cell up to your gas line and ditch the overhead wires. Cut your carbon output in half. But . . . . you need the wires for truly renewable strategies, and gas will eventually go away too so why bother with half measures.

 

[Funkworks]

Nikola semis are shipping!

“We began production of the Tre BEV on March 21 here in Coolidge and today we’re celebrating this milestone and the initial shipments of trucks to our customers,”

https://nikolamotor.com/press_relea...-of-serial-production-in-coolidge-arizona-163

https://nikolamotor.com/tre-bev



Hertz Teslas are available:

https://www.hertz.com/blog/electric-vehicles/tesla/

 

[AeroTech]

Well I have a self-propelled robotic vacuum cleaner, so there!



Ok well I already posted a few websites with maps. I'd also like to have more built at a faster rate but the present situation is actually good enough for me. I don't do road trips very often.

In practice, to find a charging station, people don't look for road signs, they use smartphone Apps, or the GPS that's included in each EV. But again, that's only for road trips.

And again, few people drive more than the range of an EV daily. It's easier for home owners to charge, but if you're in an appartment and want an EV, this can help:

https://www.chargepoint.com/solutions/apartments
In my case, I use a 110V outdoor outlet. But it's a PHEV, so if my battery runs low, I switch over to pistons and then I can outlive anything else on the road. If you want an EV and live in an appartement, maybe you can start with a PHEV too. I don't know, just random ideas.

We're looking at installing ChargePoint charging stations at the new AeroTech office/warehouse/manufacturing facility. We plan on having eight stations that will be available to all employees and our guests. We will also have covered parking that will include solar panels designed to provide for most of the electrical needs of the facility.

 

[AeroTech]

INFRASTRUCTURE and CHARGE TIMES.
Not enough charge stations being built and if you can find one, charging takes much longer than filling up the gas tank so they need to be BIG.

Also - here there has been a war on cars for the last decade or more - no parking for apartments or businesses.
Where are people supposed to charge?

There are actually many thousands of charging stations if you know where to look (and many more being deployed). Those of us that have been driving EVs for any length of time know to use the car's trip computer or apps that are readily available like Plugshare to find them when needed (because 95% of the time we don't).

I was on my way back home in southern Utah from the Las Vegas airport a couple of weeks ago and needed to charge in Mesquite. I walked in to the Casa Blanca hotel/casino to use the restroom and by the time I returned to the car I had more than enough energy to get home, where I plugged in and the car automatically charged to its pre-set level in the early morning hours.

As far as (lack of) availability at apartments and businesses, all that is changing.

 

[kevin.mcgee]

Interesting discussion.

 

[FredA]

There are actually many thousands of charging stations

That works for the current number of EV's.
When everyone has to own one -- like in Washington where they will be required in near future -- there won't be enough.
Already the few I see are FULL every time I look - it will only get worse.

As far as (lack of) availability at apartments and businesses, all that is changing.

How ???
Here you get the privilege of parking in the street?
Are we bringing back parking meter like structures with a plug at every spot on the side of every street?
That's what is needed.....

Charging at home only works if you have a home.
The cost of ownership here is going through the roof -- fewer and fewer can do it while EV as being forced upon them.

 

[BEC]

That works for the current number of EV's.
When everyone has to own one -- like in Washington where they will be required in near future -- there won't be enough.
Already the few I see are FULL every time I look - it will only get worse.

You don't think charging infrastructure will be continue to be built out ahead of and alongside that "requirement" before we get to 2030 when (it is proposed) new cars will need to be EVs here? Why?

Since I've been driving a short-range EV (2016 Kia Soul EV) I have seen the availability of public charging explode in the greater Seattle area. I do wish there was more available up the Kitsap peninsula and along the coast, but my next EV will be able to cope with the spacing that exists now, never mind what it will be like when I actually do replace the Soul with something with more range (greater than ~200 miles to 80% state of charge, say). The one place I charge away from home of late (at a Fred Meyer across I-405 from Sixty Acres Park where I go to fly) is almost always available when I arrive there. I did get rather cross one day when the fast charger's access was blocked by a Mustang Mach-E...which has no way to connect to the older CHAdeMO standard charger I needed to use. The driver was clueless about that and figured since he had an EV he could just park there. GRRRRR. And there is now a new Electrify America charging station just a few blocks away, so maybe the next time the one at Freddy's is blocked (or in use) I'll go check it out.

I agree that broken or blocked charging hardware is an issue that needs to be addressed for sure and has it caused me frustration in the past. And the plethora of different networks with different pricing approaches (though not all networks even charge you), membership requirements, etc. can be confusing and frustrating. That there are currently three different incompatible fast-charging standards right now is also a source of "friction" in the system.

How ???
Here you get the privilege of parking in the street?
Are we bringing back parking meter like structures with a plug at every spot on the side of every street?
That's what is needed.....

Charging at home only works if you have a home.
The cost of ownership here is going through the roof -- fewer and fewer can do it while EV as being forced upon them.

Where is "here"?

I do admit that I don't know what folks who live in apartment buildings in Seattle or over on the East side (and drive a non-Tesla EV and so can't use the Supercharger network) do today. But today is not 2030. And as I said, the chargers are being installed.

That said, I just pulled up PlugShare on my phone and here's what the map looks like around the city. Green is level 2 charging, brown is level 3 fast charging. This is filtered for compatibility with my car (J1772 connection for Level 2, CHAdeMO for Level 3), so Level 3 fast chargers that have CCS Combo plugs, plus all Tesla chargers are not shown.