The photos posted by MaxQ of the UHS Shuttle over in the nose cone thread came from my website. I’m glad he posted them. We have listened to stories about our project for 15 years now and no matter where one originates, there is always disbelief or misleading “opinions” about what we built and flew. Maybe its time to set some things straight…
I’m sorry George finds it “incredulous” now but you said the same thing we when called you 15 years ago to ask for help. You said it was impossible to make the model fly without the fins. “ Many years ago I would have said that was not even possible. But a high School Group in Florida got one to fly without fins.” You also said some other things I won’t repeat here.
The Sport Rocketry article was thrown together in a matter of hours by one of the team members without the benefit of being proofed by the others. That said, it was a good article and was very informative. In Engineering talk, its static stability not aerodynamic stability and we usually describe flight through “stability and control”.
“1. The shuttle stack is designed so most of the weight is located toward the nose of the vehicle”. This made the model stable with a positive static margin negating the use of additional fins.
“2. The aero-surfaces of the orbiter can be used to make corrections as required during ascent. The orbiter's aero-surfaces also allow the shuttle stack to be maneuvered during its rocket powered flight.” Read the words. The sentence’s are a little redundant but only address control. It was not implied that this made up for a lack of stability. This merely satisfied the second part of our controlled flight, stability and control…The article was written by an Electrical Engineer but he understood the basics enough to include the important information.
The CG was right to make it stable. The control was required to keep it from ‘looping’ off the rod, which could be mistaken for an instability. George does a good job describing the CG’s of the components and the stack. However, this is for a static condition. As soon as the stack starts flying, aerodynamic forces will affect the vehicle. We don’t notice this on axisymetric rockets but it starts to show up on boost gliders and really shows up on a vehicle such as the shuttle. Its trim, especially in the pitch axis, will change with speed.
“I find a bit of it incredulous now. The 250 foot altitude thing, I think that was trying to paint the best face on somewhat under-performance.” There was NO lack of performance. We flew 31 successful rocket test flights at the High school in a very cramped area. The motor selection was the ideal one for the location, audience, variable weather conditions, etc. I can’t believe the “Shuttle Expert” forgot what the specs were. I can’t believe the “Shuttle Expert” didn’t keep that magazine article. It was detailed and informative. It was the cover article for a major rocket magazine, it ran on CNN news all day, was a headline story for the largest Orlando newspaper, and Bob Crippen pushed the button. Come on….
To refresh everyone else’s memory, the stack weighed around 6-7 lbs depending on which version and what equipment was on that particular flight. It was flown on G, H, and I motors. We built and flew 3 different stacks. The press flights used the Aerotech H70 single use motor. We had flown it higher but liked the lower flights. It could have gone 300-400 feet on the H motor but we always flew a profile to mimic a shuttle flight and keep the model in a confined area.
The thrust line was not at the vehicle CG so it needed to be flow ‘up’ to keep it on track. I started off with lots of elevator to keep it straight off the rod and tapered it off as the speed bled off. I rolled 180 degrees as soon as we cleared the tower and then pitched the model onto its back. The roll trim was dependent on speed (construction trim) so it also changed during the flight. It just needed to be flown! We wanted the burnout to happen around 30-45 degrees nose up from the horizon and inverted. The stack slowed quickly once it burned out and things happened fast. I always placed the stack exactly where we wanted it in the sky based on winds so I could perform one turn between 180 and 360 degrees and then land in front of the crowd next to the pad. This also worked well for the 2 successful flights I made at Walt Disney World’s EPCOT Center surrounded by 10,000 people. Yes, I did fly it surrounded (completely) by 10,000 people (according to the Disney numbers).
George has done a great job promoting our hobby through Space Shuttle Model rocketry. He is an excellent modeler. And he is just that, a modeler. He always points out flaws in others work and compares it to his own. He always questions why anyone would want to do it different than him. I have seen this trait in many great scale modelers. Its interesting that a large percentage of scale modelers spend too much time building and not enough learning how to fly. I won’t fault George for this. He is after all, an excellent scale modeler.
He has always made flying an orbiter out to be some big complicated thing. I have probably let hundreds of airplane modelers fly one of my orbiters from an airplane. I usually take two to any local fun fly and pass the transmitter around. I think there is 20 or 30 modelers that can say they have flown an RC space shuttle inside the Cardinals football stadium (EFExpo). We always make the pilot do 3 flights so they are ‘current’. We just use elevons mixed in the radio and people are amazed how simple it really is and how easy it is to fly. Everyone has a great time and laughs a lot. I have taught hundreds of people to fly R/C. I am always happy to help with whatever R/C project someone is working on and am glad to help with flying lessons anytime. No model required. I have plenty for you to fly….
I have initiated contact with Sport Rocketry magazine to see if I can post the original article. I will also post some personal photos and I will try to get a video up. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I was responsible for building and flying the model and know more about it than anyone else. The entire project was done in a matter of a few weeks by lots of hard work from students and some great volunteers. The model now hangs in my living room.
Scott Todd
I’m sorry George finds it “incredulous” now but you said the same thing we when called you 15 years ago to ask for help. You said it was impossible to make the model fly without the fins. “ Many years ago I would have said that was not even possible. But a high School Group in Florida got one to fly without fins.” You also said some other things I won’t repeat here.
The Sport Rocketry article was thrown together in a matter of hours by one of the team members without the benefit of being proofed by the others. That said, it was a good article and was very informative. In Engineering talk, its static stability not aerodynamic stability and we usually describe flight through “stability and control”.
“1. The shuttle stack is designed so most of the weight is located toward the nose of the vehicle”. This made the model stable with a positive static margin negating the use of additional fins.
“2. The aero-surfaces of the orbiter can be used to make corrections as required during ascent. The orbiter's aero-surfaces also allow the shuttle stack to be maneuvered during its rocket powered flight.” Read the words. The sentence’s are a little redundant but only address control. It was not implied that this made up for a lack of stability. This merely satisfied the second part of our controlled flight, stability and control…The article was written by an Electrical Engineer but he understood the basics enough to include the important information.
The CG was right to make it stable. The control was required to keep it from ‘looping’ off the rod, which could be mistaken for an instability. George does a good job describing the CG’s of the components and the stack. However, this is for a static condition. As soon as the stack starts flying, aerodynamic forces will affect the vehicle. We don’t notice this on axisymetric rockets but it starts to show up on boost gliders and really shows up on a vehicle such as the shuttle. Its trim, especially in the pitch axis, will change with speed.
“I find a bit of it incredulous now. The 250 foot altitude thing, I think that was trying to paint the best face on somewhat under-performance.” There was NO lack of performance. We flew 31 successful rocket test flights at the High school in a very cramped area. The motor selection was the ideal one for the location, audience, variable weather conditions, etc. I can’t believe the “Shuttle Expert” forgot what the specs were. I can’t believe the “Shuttle Expert” didn’t keep that magazine article. It was detailed and informative. It was the cover article for a major rocket magazine, it ran on CNN news all day, was a headline story for the largest Orlando newspaper, and Bob Crippen pushed the button. Come on….
To refresh everyone else’s memory, the stack weighed around 6-7 lbs depending on which version and what equipment was on that particular flight. It was flown on G, H, and I motors. We built and flew 3 different stacks. The press flights used the Aerotech H70 single use motor. We had flown it higher but liked the lower flights. It could have gone 300-400 feet on the H motor but we always flew a profile to mimic a shuttle flight and keep the model in a confined area.
The thrust line was not at the vehicle CG so it needed to be flow ‘up’ to keep it on track. I started off with lots of elevator to keep it straight off the rod and tapered it off as the speed bled off. I rolled 180 degrees as soon as we cleared the tower and then pitched the model onto its back. The roll trim was dependent on speed (construction trim) so it also changed during the flight. It just needed to be flown! We wanted the burnout to happen around 30-45 degrees nose up from the horizon and inverted. The stack slowed quickly once it burned out and things happened fast. I always placed the stack exactly where we wanted it in the sky based on winds so I could perform one turn between 180 and 360 degrees and then land in front of the crowd next to the pad. This also worked well for the 2 successful flights I made at Walt Disney World’s EPCOT Center surrounded by 10,000 people. Yes, I did fly it surrounded (completely) by 10,000 people (according to the Disney numbers).
George has done a great job promoting our hobby through Space Shuttle Model rocketry. He is an excellent modeler. And he is just that, a modeler. He always points out flaws in others work and compares it to his own. He always questions why anyone would want to do it different than him. I have seen this trait in many great scale modelers. Its interesting that a large percentage of scale modelers spend too much time building and not enough learning how to fly. I won’t fault George for this. He is after all, an excellent scale modeler.
He has always made flying an orbiter out to be some big complicated thing. I have probably let hundreds of airplane modelers fly one of my orbiters from an airplane. I usually take two to any local fun fly and pass the transmitter around. I think there is 20 or 30 modelers that can say they have flown an RC space shuttle inside the Cardinals football stadium (EFExpo). We always make the pilot do 3 flights so they are ‘current’. We just use elevons mixed in the radio and people are amazed how simple it really is and how easy it is to fly. Everyone has a great time and laughs a lot. I have taught hundreds of people to fly R/C. I am always happy to help with whatever R/C project someone is working on and am glad to help with flying lessons anytime. No model required. I have plenty for you to fly….
I have initiated contact with Sport Rocketry magazine to see if I can post the original article. I will also post some personal photos and I will try to get a video up. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I was responsible for building and flying the model and know more about it than anyone else. The entire project was done in a matter of a few weeks by lots of hard work from students and some great volunteers. The model now hangs in my living room.
Scott Todd
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