Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[boatgeek]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/solid-state-ev-batteries-may-163900580.html

The real trick will be to make these backward compatible to today's EV's that are using LiPo batteries so that if you have a Tesla, Ford, Toyota etc. EV with 200,000 or so miles and it needs a new battery, you can install one of these instead of a LiPo.

It should* be relatively straightforward to build a box that (a) fits in the hole left behind by taking out a "standard" battery and (b) is electrically compatible. Charging would probably be an issue though hopefully that would be relatively easily replaced as well.

* In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice.

 

[Funkworks]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/solid-state-ev-batteries-may-163900580.html

The real trick will be to make these backward compatible to today's EV's that are using LiPo batteries so that if you have a Tesla, Ford, Toyota etc. EV with 200,000 or so miles and it needs a new battery, you can install one of these instead of a LiPo.

Many shops install lithium batteries in 20th century car frames, so I don't see this as a big problem. Remove the old, install the new. A very clever mechanic with electrical knowledge can do that and the same will apply when going from one battery system to another. Not something I can do, but something I know many people can.

Maximizing the range and recharge cycles of solid state batteries, and mass producing them, now that's a big problem where you need many cross-disciplinary teams collaborating with each other, and you're never quite sure how far you can go. Real hard core applied science research.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice.

In theory, many things are possible. In reality, many things don't work.

 

[neil_w]

200,000 is very short. Expect EV batteries to last much longer as they progress, long enough that most cars will never get a battery transplant in their lifetime. So I don't see operations like this being particularly needed. Take this with a grain of salt but that is where things are heading.

 

[Funkworks]

United Rentals buys 500 Ford F150 Lightnings

https://unitedrentals.gcs-web.com/n...sts-ford-electric-trucks-north-american-fleet


Sandy Munro saying just how useful V2L (vehicle-to-load) can be. That's when the vehicle battery can be used to power devices like tools and home aplliances.

 

[AeroTech]

I completely agree. We've got two Teslas and the only time we've needed a super charger is driving to Vegas, San Francisco, or a long road trip. They both clock over 300 miles of range, but we rarely use half in a day.

For the truck, I want the 500 mile option, because when we go to FAR on weekends it is about a 200 mile drive each way and we do a lot of desert driving hunting for rockets. This is harsh conditions with 120 degree days. The day is already long with 7 hours of total driving and I'd rather not have to stop and charge. This is still the one use case for me that requires longer range, which is why I still own an ICE truck.

Hopefully they will install some L2 charging stations at FAR in the future.

 

[FredA]

Many shops install lithium batteries in 20th century car frames, so I don't see this as a big problem. Remove the old, install the new. A very clever mechanic with electrical knowledge can do that and the same will apply when going from one battery system to another. Not something I can do, but something I know many people can

Then EV fires will be rampant.....shade-tree mechanics swapping batteries.....
Maybe they can physically do the swap and manage the wiring.
Who's reprogramming the computer to know how to charge and discharge?
How about changes to the cooling system.....most packs are liquid cooled and/or heated.
If the batteries are not the same voltage/current then the inverter driving the motor will likely need to change.

EV's appear simple, but are highly tuned, tightly integrated systems....a shop is not likely to do anything more that swap to a new battery from the same maker designed for that car.

Then what do we do with the old ones????
CODA had a plan to re-use them in the secondary market to cover peak loads in hotels and such.
I don't see anything similar from other vendors.
I'm pretty sure the Tesla Wall is not reusing batteries. Perhaps [hope] that's the plan in the future.

 

[Funkworks]

Then EV fires will be rampant.....shade-tree mechanics swapping batteries.....
Maybe they can physically do the swap and manage the wiring.
Who's reprogramming the computer to know how to charge and discharge?
How about changes to the cooling system.....most packs are liquid cooled and/or heated.
If the batteries are not the same voltage/current then the inverter driving the motor will likely need to change.

EV's appear simple, but are highly tuned, tightly integrated systems....a shop is not likely to do anything more that swap to a new battery from the same maker designed for that car.

Then what do we do with the old ones????
CODA had a plan to re-use them in the secondary market to cover peak loads in hotels and such.
I don't see anything similar from other vendors.
I'm pretty sure the Tesla Wall is not reusing batteries.

If you're talking about replacing a Lithium battery with a solid state battery in the same car frame, I think it's a bit too early. By the time we get there - assuming we do get there - and I would like to that happen - but I can't tell when - makers will have had the time to prepare kits (software and hardware) and such and sell them to those who are interested. Personally, I don't see replacing a Lithium battery with a solid state battery to be a popular thing. Li batteries last the lifetime of the car, and when (if) SS batteries mature, cars will be designed around them. Conversion will be an enthusist thing (unless car makers see a reason to design a care to be compatible with either of Li and SS - but I don't see why yet).

Tesla does use recycled material as much as they can to make their batteries (and I could post a source), but there isn't enough yet to produce everything they do. They caused world wide production of batteries to double since the early 2000's (and more now). At a certain point in the future, "urban mining" (use of recycled materials) could surpass underground mining. But that is also a bit far into the future for now. Redwood Materials, among others, is on standby to purchase and recycle any unusable car battery that is anticipated to exist in the coming decades.

As for "EV fires will be rampant", I don't see your point. Maybe if you had numbers or a comaprison, instead of "will be rampant", I'd understand what you mean. Otherwise, it looks like unfounded naysaying or underestimating engineers.

 

[Funkworks]

This article answers many questions I had and tried to answer to in here. Beautiful graphs too.

"In the short run, there are enough wealthy car buyers in the US to buy as many electric cars as automakers can produce."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022...etting-pricier-even-as-batteries-get-cheaper/

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

United Rentals buys 500 Ford F150 Lightnings

https://unitedrentals.gcs-web.com/n...sts-ford-electric-trucks-north-american-fleet


Sandy Munro saying just how useful V2L (vehicle-to-load) can be. That's when the vehicle battery can be used to power devices like tools and home aplliances.

The F150 lightning sounds awesome. The V2L features will be so useful. I’m wondering if any kind of electric camper van is being considered. I think I’d be willing to exchange range for having that much electrical capacity available for getting rid of propane and electrical generators and running the fridge, stove, climate control, hot water, and outdoor camping appliances, etc. off the battery.

 

[Funkworks]

The F150 lightning sounds awesome. The V2L features will be so useful. I’m wondering if any kind of electric camper van is being considered. I think I’d be willing to exchange range for having that much electrical capacity available for getting rid of propane and electrical generators and running the fridge, stove, climate control, hot water, and outdoor camping appliances, etc. off the battery.

VW is making an electric version of its classic camper van, but I don't think they confirmed V2L. Seems like a no brainer now, but there's still a 2-year wait.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-volkswagen-id-buzz-first-look-review/

 

[FredA]

As for "EV fires will be rampant", I don't see your point. Maybe if you had numbers or a comaprison, instead of "will be rampant", I'd understand what you mean. Otherwise, it looks like unfounded naysaying or underestimating engineers.

Tesla's overheat while sitting on a charger [doing nothing but charging] TODAY with their own design as shipped from the factory.
Can't imagine what can and will go wrong when people start to tinker.
Tesla underestimated how hard it is to engineer a good, reliable, quality car.....with hundreds if not thousands of engineers working on the problem
How well do you think some "garage engineer" is going to do?

 

[Cape Byron]

VW is making an electric version of its classic camper van, but I don't think they confirmed V2L. Seems like a no brainer now, but there's still a 2-year wait.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-volkswagen-id-buzz-first-look-review/

Nice for VW to make a modern car and not lie about emissions. There's a change for you.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Nice for VW to make a modern car and not lie about emissions. There's a change for you.

I’m still mad at Volkswagen for the fraud. That really ruined my opinion of the brand.

 

[Cape Byron]

I’m still mad at Volkswagen for the fraud. That really ruined my opinion of the brand.

Fines and remediation over that fraud cost VW $4.7 million just here in Oz.

The only good VWs are air cooled.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Fines and remediation over that fraud cost VW $4.7 million just here in Oz.

The only good VWs are air cooled.

In the US, it ran up to multiple BILLIONS of dollars.

 

[Cape Byron]

In the US, it ran up to multiple BILLIONS of dollars.

Well booeffinghoo for VW. Maybe they shouldn't have misled millions of customers.

Multiple billions is good, but our politicians are born without teeth and later have no desire to use them.

 

[rocket_troy]

... but our politicians are born without teeth and later have no desire to use them.

I think we need an enquiry.
Then we need to wait for the report.
Then we need to censor the report.
Then we shelve the report.
Sorted!

 

[Cape Byron]

I think we need an enquiry.
Then we need to wait for the report.
Then we need to censor the report.
Then we shelve the report.
Sorted!

We have a Federal election in a couple of weeks. We'll probably have a new dropkick to deal with in every department. Oh joy!

But the staus quo is a hella 'No', so the present incumbent has got to go.

 

[Funkworks]

Tesla's overheat while sitting on a charger [doing nothing but charging] TODAY with their own design as shipped from the factory.
Can't imagine what can and will go wrong when people start to tinker.
Tesla underestimated how hard it is to engineer a good, reliable, quality car.....with hundreds if not thousands of engineers working on the problem
How well do you think some "garage engineer" is going to do?

"Garage engineers" can already buy and tinker with many things that aren't as safe.

... There's a change for you.

I think you mean that as an expression and not me personally.

We have a Federal election in a couple of weeks. We'll probably have a new dropkick to deal with in every department. Oh joy!

But the staus quo is a hella 'No', so the present incumbent has got to go.

Please don't discuss politics in here. I select what I post to avoid this.
Batteries (and electric motors) have progressed for many decades all over the world.
This thread is meant to be about products and techs we find interesting.
I try to find new things I (and you) haven't seen before.




A few reviews on the Lightning:

 

[Cape Byron]

I think you mean that as an expression and not me personally.

Yes, I meant it would be a change for VW.

 

[Funkworks]

Speaking of "garage engineers"!

 

[jadebox]

In the US, it ran up to multiple BILLIONS of dollars.

As part of the settlement, VW promised to invest $2 billion in "Zero Emission Vehicle charging infrastructure and in the promotion of ZEVs" in the US.

The funds were allocated to the states who will decide specifically how to use the money. So far, only about 20% of the money has been spent.

 

[neil_w]

While the whole dieselgate thing was appalling, I have to say that VW really seem to have come out on the other side of it fully committed cleaning up their act, and to BEV transition. So while I don't necessarily forgive them for their past actions, based on what they are doing now I am rooting for them to succeed.

I have a harder time forgiving the Japanese manufacturers, who in addition to lagging on electrification have also lobbied against it (looking at you Toyota). This was interesting: https://electrek.co/2022/05/11/japa...-of-jobs-by-stalling-on-electric-cars-report/.

 

[Funkworks]

As part of the settlement, VW promised to invest $2 billion in "Zero Emission Vehicle charging infrastructure and in the promotion of ZEVs" in the US.

The funds were allocated to the states who will decide specifically how to use the money. So far, only about 20% of the money has been spent.

Tesla boss when asked about promising EV start-ups:

"I think the company making the most progress besides Tesla is actually VW which is not a startup but could be viewed in some ways as a startup from an electric vehicle standpoint. So VW is doing the most on the electric vehicle front."

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/othe...only-to-tesla-in-electric-vehicles/ar-AAX927c


Semi anyone? First day today I think to pre-order. Specs not yet defined.

https://www.tesla.com/semi/reserve#payment

 

[Jim AI4SR]

While the whole dieselgate thing was appalling, I have to say that VW really seem to have come out on the other side of it fully committed cleaning up their act, and to BEV transition. So while I don't necessarily forgive them for their past actions, based on what they are doing now I am rooting for them to succeed.

I have a harder time forgiving the Japanese manufacturers, who in addition to lagging on electrification have also lobbied against it (looking at you Toyota). This was interesting: https://electrek.co/2022/05/11/japa...-of-jobs-by-stalling-on-electric-cars-report/.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/14/toyota-ceo-announces-automakers-battery-ev-plans.htmlI think with the huge sales successes of the Toyota line for years, EV's was a slow starter for them. In any case, as a 5 time Camry owner I suspect when they go big time it will be big time with a very successful entry(ies).

 

[Funkworks]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/14/toyota-ceo-announces-automakers-battery-ev-plans.htmlI think with the huge sales successes of the Toyota line for years, EV's was a slow starter for them. In any case, as a 5 time Camry owner I suspect when they go big time it will be big time with a very successful entry(ies).

They have many prototypes, including some with solid state battery tech:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38711469/toyota-solid-state-batteries-2025/
But personally, I'm sceptical about company predictions 5-10 years from now.

In any case, their first EV is about to be released:

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/bz4x/

 

[OverTheTop]

Many of our taxis here in Australia are hybrid Toyota Camrys. It is a good indication of economy and reliability.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Many of our taxis here in Australia are hybrid Toyota Camrys. It is a good indication of economy and reliability.

My wife and I have a Camry Hybrid. It’s a nice car.

 

[Funkworks]

Regenerative braking all day long makes hybrid taxis very economical.
Excellent products, but when it was discovered that they actively inhibited progress of 100% EVs, they lost fans. They could easily have been first to release EVs but as it is, they’re among the last.

Freightliner has a battery truck!