Estes E12 now available

[neond7]

I flew my first E12 yesterday as well, in a BT80 gliding Bomarc. BOOM!, same deal, blew the nozzle out and fireballed upwards, toasting through the pod, and crumpling the gliders paper NC. Coded 11 15 11. Have *many more* from the same lot too....

I was standing next to you at that TTRA launch!! Sad to see.......... I remember you mentioned how many of those motors you had bought.

 

[Wayco]

I personally know of (8) E12 motor failures with the 8 18 11 manufacturing date.

Bob

Now I'm wondering if I should just hang on to the E12's I got from Hobbylinc and see if there is a recall from Estes. Mine have the dreaded 8-18-11 date code on all of them. I bought them for my favorite two stage Rip-Roar and would hate to destroy it after six years of great flights....
I think I will build a CC Express clone with stuff I already have and try a few of them in a cheap scratch build with no history.

 

[JPVegh]

Yeah, I'm thinking to build a few min diameter, no paint, no filler basic rockets to use these in. If they blow up, oh well.

 

[Donaldsrockets]

I'm highly thinking about flying my first one or two in a 24mm saucer.

If it blows through, the resulting fireball will just go flying through the air without roasting anything.:wink:

 

[JimZNJ]

Now I'm wondering if I should just hang on to the E12's I got from Hobbylinc and see if there is a recall from Estes. Mine have the dreaded 8-18-11 date code on all of them.

Same date code as mine that blew and from the same source.

I've only tried one from the pack so far and it blew. I was going to try a static test of one at our launch last weekend but the conditions weren't right for that. I'll probably do like you and throw together a simple scratch build using some BT-50 and try it on a pad safely away from others at our next launch. As much as it would be cool to see the next one work, I still don't think I would trust the third one then in a good rocket. I'll wait till we know it isn't a chronic problem before buying more from a later date.

Jim Z

 

[shreadvector]

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?35112-Estes-E12-now-available&p=366031#post366031

After flying 9 in a row with no problems I paid cash money and ordered 8 more packs of them. They arrived a couple of weeks ago and I will have them at the launch on Saturday, August 18. I had them with me on August 11, but nobody wanted to try them and I was busy checking folks in.

I'll bring my long BT-55 models in case someone wants to try the motors and does not wish to try them in their own rocket. You can borrow the rocket for free and if it gets destroyed by the motor, I can file the report and get something as a replacement.

https://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/scra2012.pdf

I'll also bring them to the Lucerne Dry Lake launch on Sunday, August 26.

 

[Green Jello]

I sent Hobby Linc an email asking if they had the ability to check the dates before shipping them out. We'll see what they say. Has anyone had a CATO that wasn't the 8/18/11 build?

 

[Green Jello]

HobbyLinc just got back to me and they said their current batch in stock is:

11-15-11

 

[jadebox]

I flew my first E12 yesterday as well, in a BT80 gliding Bomarc. BOOM!, same deal, blew the nozzle out and fireballed upwards, toasting through the pod, and crumpling the gliders paper NC. Coded 11 15 11. Have *many more* from the same lot too....

​

There are more photos documenting Mike's motor mishap starting at: https://www.rocketreviews.com/2012-07-21-14-38-005jpg.html

-- Roger
​

 

[Green Jello]

Thank you so much for posting that. I was about to order some from that lot from Hobby Linc.

I think we should all keep flooding Estes with emails about this until they respond.

 

[Spooks]

I finally got around to digging mine out of my field box, I have two packs of 8-18-11 E12's...

I am curious on what to do, I have a tough as nails Executioner I was thinking about flying with one, that thing has survived way beyond what most would, just curious how it would stand up if this lot is bad as well.

 

[Green Jello]

Has anyone had this happen to an E12-0? That's the one I need to buy. Or is it only a problem with the single stage engines?

 

[Green Jello]

Either everyone mentioned in this thread with failures isn't reporting them to Estes, or Estes is lying. The customer service agent just told me they have only heard of two E12 failures worldwide so far.

 

[rstaff3]

Their webform must go nowhere. I'll eventually get around to calling. FAIW, the one that blew on me was A 8 18 11. I had to count my stash but it appears I flew the other two from the pack successfully.

 

[Green Jello]

That response was from the webform. I sent in a fake report to see how they'd handle it.

 

[rstaff3]

Interesting. Maybe I was one of the two they referenced. I got no response.

 

[Green Jello]

Interesting. My response took less than 30 minutes.

 

[boomtube]

I hope one of the venders at AIRFest or High Frontiers has some of these.

I’d hate to pay a HazMat shipping fee for a black powder motor or drive 240+ miles roundtrip to the nearest shop where I might purchase them.

 

[billspad]

Either everyone mentioned in this thread with failures isn't reporting them to Estes,

Evidently they aren't submitting MESS forms either.

If there is indeed a problem, posting it on a forum is not a substitute for informing the manufacturer or the certifying organization.

 

[rstaff3]

Bill, how do you know the MESS reports aren't being submitted? I fortunately haven't had to submit many of them and never wondered about a particular motor. Until now. I'd like to hear what the MESS db says!

 

[Green Jello]

Does anyone know if this effects the E12-0s?

 

[rstaff3]

I've burned three and they were aok. But then I flew -4's and -6's successfully until the last -4 went boom. So, basically this doesn't answer your question. :cyclops:

 

[billspad]

Bill, how do you know the MESS reports aren't being submitted? I fortunately haven't had to submit many of them and never wondered about a particular motor. Until now. I'd like to hear what the MESS db says!

In my lofty position as S & T secretary I see what's been submitted. I can't give you details but I can tell you that it's really frustrating to read the posts on TRF (I'm not talking about just the E12) and not see a report to match.

The system isn't great but unless people report the failures it's useless.

In case you were wondering, here's the policy right out of the S & T Manual:

Motors registering a significant number of failures in the field asjudged by the S&T Chairman based on the
circumstance that MESS reports received on that type of motor were 20%or more of all MESS reports
received during a 12 month period, will be reported to the manufacturerby the S&T Chairman, and may be
recalled for retesting by the S&T Chairman if the manufacturer doesnot provide a satisfactory explanation as
to why the reporting data was anomalous or how the reliability problemhas been recognized and corrected.
The manufacturer will be required to submit a quantity equal to thatrequired for new certification.

 

[rstaff3]

Thanks, I probably knew about your role at some point Could you at least verify that my report is there? Submitted under Dick Stafford. It would suck if none of the webform submissions I've been making are actually going thru. Pretty sure the page acknowledged the submission...but...

 

[billspad]

Pretty sure the page acknowledged the submission...but...

I think I can say that yours went through without getting into trouble.

In the next month or so there's going to be a stand alone motor failure reporting site. It will handle reports for motors certified by S & T, TMT and CAR.

 

[chadrog]

Does anyone know if this effects the E12-0s?

There's an E12-0 flight in here, all was well.
https://youtu.be/xCp6mR3Nc9g

 

[shreadvector]

I have posted about those motors repeatedly. Do you want me to repeat the post again or provide a link to the post back in this thread or the other threads where they were posted?

Has anyone had this happen to an E12-0? That's the one I need to buy. Or is it only a problem with the single stage engines?

 

[Green Jello]

I have posted about those motors repeatedly. Do you want me to repeat the post again or provide a link to the post back in this thread or the other threads where they were posted?

Wow, that was totally helpful, and not at all filled with pointless attitude. Thanks. :eyeroll:

THIS is the only time I've seen you mention the E12-0, and it doesn't really answer the question. All it states is that you had some successful launches with them, I'm trying to find out if ANYONE has EVER had a E12-0 failure.

As I reported in the past (here and on YORF), I had several packs of E12 motors of all delay times that I got from our local huge hobby store chain. All date code A 08 18 11. (They print it on the motor AND on the back of the motor package now!). We flew a bunch of E12-4 and E12-6 motors at Lucerne Dry lake and 1/3 failed. Flew one more E12-6 a week or two later at our local launch site and it failed.

So, I built 3 special rockets to use up my pack of E12-0 and E12-8 motors and lauched them 2-staged a couple of weeks ago. All worked perfectly and the altitudes were ASTOUNDING. (3 foot long BT-55 rockets with BMS nose cones and really long streamer for recovery).

So, this past Saturday I tried another pack of E12-6 motors in the same 3 rockets single stage. All worked perfectly and altitudes were also really high. They leap off the pad and fly much straighter than an E9 flight because they get up to a higher speed and are less prone to weathercocking.

SO, if anyone else has failures, PLEASE report them to the NAR via M.E.S.S. and alos alert Estes. Estes will replace the rocket and the motors, but they usually send you 2 packs of D12 motors since they can mail them without the HAZMAT cost.

And, since someone will ask, temperature at the time of launch at all locations was between 75 and 85 F.

 

[LW Bercini]

Wow, that was totally helpful, and not at all filled with pointless attitude. Thanks. :eyeroll:

THIS is the only time I've seen you mention the E12-0, and it doesn't really answer the question. All it states is that you had some successful launches with them, I'm trying to find out if ANYONE has EVER had a E12-0 failure.

I see this same phenomenon here as well as within my correspondence at work. I can ask a direct question, receive multiple replies, but nobody addresses the question. I have a theory that rather than say "I don't have that specific answer", people feel the need to "contribute" anyway; providing related or tangential information.

In addition, If I list 2 questions (even if I number them in my message), I will invariably receive e-mails addressing only the first question. This forces me to re-send a gentle reminder that there were TWO questions (and yes, I must admit, sometimes I show some "attitude" in the follow-up question).

Oh, and by the way, I have not seen any E12-0s flown yet, so I don't have an answer to your question.

 

[bobkrech]

Either everyone mentioned in this thread with failures isn't reporting them to Estes, or Estes is lying. The customer service agent just told me they have only heard of two E12 failures worldwide so far.

Evidently they aren't submitting MESS forms either.

If there is indeed a problem, posting it on a forum is not a substitute for informing the manufacturer or the certifying organization.

The bottom line is that not everyone reports the motor failure to both the manufacturer and fills out the NAR mess report. Without reporting to both, neither the manufacturer nor the certifying authorities know about the failures. Period.

Let's look at a typical year. S&T typically receives between 100 to 150 MESS reports a year. That's not a lot of reports, so all hobby rocket motors would appear to be very reliable. Correct? Maybe, but we can only go by the statistics.

We know from a number of public sources that Estes makes several million motors a year. If we assume that 50% of the MESS reports involve Estes motors, than the reported failure rate is ~75/3,000,000 or only 1 failure in 40,000 motors! That a 99.9975% overall success rate. Really good, and much better than APCP motors.

We also know that a Mabel, the Estes motor production machine, produces about 600 motors per hour, and that Estes tests 3% of their motor for quality control, so they probably make about 5,000 motors per shift day per Mabel and probaby have 4,800 available (1600 3-packs) for sale after testing and obvious rejects.

From what I have complied from this TRF thread, and other sources, 13 catos of E12 motors have been reported somewhere, and not all have been reported to Estes and NAR S&T. 12 of these motors were from lot A 8 18 11 and only with -4 and -6 delays. We can look at the raw failure rate which is about 12/4800 or 1 in 400. That's a 99.75% success rate. A good bit lower than the overall reported rate, but still very good. In fact there is a stastical 70% probability (0.9975^144 = 0.7) that when Estes tested ~144 motors as part of their daily QC, not one motor will fail! A 1 in 200 failure rate is required to satistically have a better than 50-50 chance to have 1 motor cato in ~144 motors tested.

The analysis above assumes a totally random system, which may or may nor be valid. If the black powder or the clay is not totally homogeneous, then you might have an abnormality in a few consecutive motors. If you change the process, for example, the delay time, the first few motos may be slightly different. These are manufacturing processing uncertainties that could be missed in random lot testing. However from the reports I read, it looks like most of the catos were random, and only 1 or the 3 motors in a pack catoed. If it happened to you, it is unfortunate, but the probability of it happening is statistically low.

While one E12 lot may warrant further scrutiny, but unless there is an ageing problem, and verified with continuing documented reports of problems with that lot, even that lot failure rate is not high. Later lots don't have reported problems, so at present, I wouldn't loose sleep over using Estes E12 motors.

Bob