AeroTech Information Release 11/10/08

[eugenefl]

REMINDER: Please stay on topic.

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Is there something in the ocean that is making states on the coasts go loopy?

Way too much Dihydrogen Monoxide in near vicinity to Silicon Dioxide.

 

[SwingWing]

I sneer at latex danger.

I like it, you should make it your new sig line!!!

 

[AKPilot]

Folks, since the first reply there's something that's really bugging me and I finally figured out how to say it on the way to work this morning.

First off, as mentioned, vendors & individuals deserve respect. This should be second nature. There's little need to belittle anyone, for anything, on this forum.

I understand there are concerns about the handling of certain composites, however there is a right and a wrong way to ask questions.

If you have a sincere question or concern it can be stated in a polite manner such as, "Have you, or are you, thinking about adding special handling instructions on your products?" This lets a vendor know you have a sincere concern and want to see their products improved.

By stating otherwise, you may not realize it, but you are coming across as confrontational and aggressive. By human nature this is seen as an attack on the person or corporation.

Please, take this into consideration during future posts. Gary has earned and deserves our respect. He also deserves an opportunity to post without fear of attack or reprisal, on products that actually contribute to our hobby and interests.

 

[AndyC2]

Gary - love the Greens and Reds, and Blacks, and Whites, oh my! I think the I245G is one of my favorites. Someday I will go for my level 3, and having more choices like the new M1500G sounds really great!

Thanks for the reminder though that I need to more consistently wear my safety gloves, esp when cleaning out spent motors of any propellant formulation. I have to admit I only remember about 1/2 the time, duh.

 

[luke strawalker]

There may be a few dicey chemicals inside those motors, I don't know and I will likely never find out (chances of me ever flying an L or M motor are something smaller than zero). I have to agree with someone's crack about our modern "nanny state" because I have other "dangerous" items all around me, every single day....I guess I should start watching for when my second head starts growing.

I have motor oil here at home. Not used or dirty, mind you, but BRAND NEW motor oil still sealed in those cute little quart bottles, never been opened. Even if I wanted to for some strange reason, it is against the law for me to throw this oil away in the trash because someone has decided it is a dangerous substance (I guess it might make the dump dirty).

I have fluorescent tubes all around my (her?) kitchen. I just replaced all of them with a fresh batch and now I have a box in the garage with 14 old fluorescent bulbs. I can walk into the hardware store and buy as many as I like, with no permits, no training, no nothin' (as can anybody), but I can't throw away the used ones in the trash. It is against the law for me to throw them away in the trash because someone thinks they are too dangerous.

I have latex paint all around the house, in every room including the ones where the kids sleep. I can go to any of about 100 local stores and buy all the latex paint I want, and no one seems the least concerned that I might be stockpiling a dangerous terrorist chemical weapon. But I can't throw away the empty paint cans in the trash because someone is afraid that the latex chemicals are deadly. (They wouldn't even let me throw away a can that one of the kids got with a T-shirt and markers packed in it, and NEVER had paint inside, because it LOOKS like a paint can. Sheesh.) I have a huge pile of old paint cans in the garage. I sneer at latex danger.

There is no place for me to take these things for proper disposal. Because I don't live inside the "official" city limits, the city will not accept these materials when they do their once-yearly "special" trash collection. The county has no provision for disposing of this stuff (they send me to the city people). I guess I am going to have to store it myself, forever, and dangerously live amongst the horrible hazards until my garage fills up and bursts. Or is declared a hazardous waste site.

I get really tired of people who write these rules without thinking them through, just because some lab rat got sick after some scientists force-fed it a ton of samples representing 842 years of exposure. We have too many people inflicting "safety" rules on us without thinking through the real-world impacts of all their requirements.

Warn me, fine, but then please leave me alone.

(Phew, I feel better now.)




I distinctly remember the side of the KNO3 bottles that I bought as a kid had instructions for farmers to use the stuff to dose their animals if they needed a laxative. What's up with that?

That's what railroad tracks and creek bridges are for... LOL

Just kidding before someone rips me a new one, but seriously, I was talking to a railroad worker and we were comparing war stories... Since the State of Texas passed the "no motor oil filters/motor oil in trash" rule a few years back (along with the tire/battery disposal fees and restrictions) the number of oil filters and other junk on the roadside has gone up exponentially. I was cutting hay and every 100-150 yards I'd hear a loud "FOOM" and an oil filter would go spinning across the ground out from behind the hay mower like a cannonball... I even had to dodge an old toilet and several tires on the roadside, and this is a STATE HIGHWAY-- not some dead end back country road!

The railroad guy was telling me how they'll get called out every other day of the week to go out and clean up the railroad right-of-way, because somebody'll back their truck down the tracks near some deserted country road crossing and dump TRUCKLOADS of oil filters, batteries, tires, barrels of old motor oil, etc. on the tracks. I've seen the junk under the country road bridges so I don't doubt it!

The harder the government makes it to get rid of this stuff properly the more of it ends up tossed IMPROPERLY! JMHO! OL JR

 

[Bravo52]

I heard Barium Nitrate will make my babies be born naked. Is this true?

This is why I like this forum. All the nuts around here! This is the funniest thing I've read and I am still laughing 5 mins later.........

I flew two Greens this weekend at RG5 and loved them both.....I did have to sand the grains a little to get them to ignite (Gary put an extra igniter in the Greens!) after 3 tries.

The problem with America today, as it relates to our hobby, is someone is always looking to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. I say, if you worry about the Greens, then stay away, don't use them, spend your money somewhere else.

Jerry

 

[jadebox]

Harmful if swallowed.

Well, there's the name of my next rocket!

-- Roger

 

[Garoq]

Gary - love the Greens and Reds, and Blacks, and Whites, oh my! I think the I245G is one of my favorites. Someday I will go for my level 3, and having more choices like the new M1500G sounds really great!

Thanks for the reminder though that I need to more consistently wear my safety gloves, esp when cleaning out spent motors of any propellant formulation. I have to admit I only remember about 1/2 the time, duh.

How's this?

https://aerotech-rocketry.com/custo...uctions/MR-LMS_Loadable/g78g_lms_in_20206.pdf

And this:

https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/c...cuments/OSHA(MSDS)/aerotech_msds_11-11-08.pdf

 

[MarkH]

Maybe replace the snake logo with one of these:

 

[jadebox]

Wow, those rocket motors are as dangerous as toothpaste!

-- Roger​

 

[r1dermon]

Oh brother, where to begin....

Interesting how you only mentioned me by name, as there are at least two other manufacturers producing green flame motors. Are you associated in any way with one of our competitors?

Putting this together with other information I have gleaned from multiple sources, this is beginning to sound a lot like the anti-reload fear-mongering efforts of the early '90s. Video and report to follow?

As for manufacturers, if they follow proper industrial hygiene procedures they won't be poisoned.

I believe AeroTech is the only manufacturer of green motors that includes additional specific warnings about handling the propellant and breathing the exhaust fumes.

Though there have been no issues with the handling or use of Mojave Green motors, we are going to add additional precautions in future production.

Based on your own cite, ALL solid rocket motors are hazardous substances. FYI there is an exemption for the sale of certain rocket motors to children, otherwise they would all be banned hazardous substances. Mojave Green motors are labeled for sale to adults only, though we could legally make 'F' and smaller versions available for our younger customers.

seriously, should we ban hairspray or spray paint? what about concrete cleaner? chlorine? what about gasoline...lets ban gasoline because its volatile and its fumes are bad.

anything when misused, can be dangerous. following the guidelines of the NAR and TRA, you wouldn't be breathing anything from an L motor, since it'll be a good ways away from you when launched.

good job AT, that's one hell of an L...in 75mm too...mmmm.

 

[r1dermon]

Open reload package.

Do not lick, eat,chop up and sniff, or put in chili for flavoring

Hold your breath and drop the grains into liner.

Assemble motor.

Wash your hands.

Now go launch your rocket in full knowledge you have been "safety compliant"

Mandatory: have DNA with common sense in your lineage.

Problem solved......LOLarty::banghead::banghead:

wow, put in chili for flavoring...dude that was the funniest thing i've ever seen on TRF...hahaha.

 

[AndyC2]

How's this?

https://aerotech-rocketry.com/custo...uctions/MR-LMS_Loadable/g78g_lms_in_20206.pdf

Looks great! Both a reminder for gloves in the section about loading the grains, and simple disposal of the whole thing after firing. For the price difference though, I think I 'll keep getting G76G loads instead of the LMS, and just remember my gloves from now on.

Just an quick idea - you have some basic precautions in the "Read this before you begin" section - what about adding a line about when/if gloves are recommended for assembly and cleaning post-firing, instead of having a note later as in the LMS instructions?

 

[madsen]

Looks great! Both a reminder for gloves in the section about loading the grains..... and just remember my gloves from now on... what about adding a line about when/if gloves are recommended/QUOTE]

Ok--What have I missed? It appears that half the people posting here believe that gloves are needed to handle Mojave Green--as well as most other motors. When did that that info come out? I have been flying Mojave Green all year--without gloves--I even have a Mojave Green shirt. I have never worn gloves to load a motor in 17 years--I am still alive. I just went to the Aerotech website and read the instructions for a Mojave Green reload--nothing was said about gloves. Specifically, it said "...wash hands after handling Mojave Green propellant and before eating". Let's not get carried away on the dangers (real and imagined) of any green propellant. I intend to keep doing what I have been doing--using common sense--and I should be fine.
Besides, ever try to find running water on the desert? (Yes, I do carry a whole bunch of baby wipes to clean up--both me and my hardware--and I always use them to clean up prior to eating--nothing to do with Mojave Green ). I do use cheap disposable plastic gloves (Price Club--$9.00 for 2,000) for cleaning out the case after the flight--that is nasty. I did it without gloves a few times--took 2 days to get the black gunk off.

 

[poke44]

What are the end products from the reaction of the engine. Barium Oxide would be my guess which is anhydrous and would suck the water out of the air and make barium hydroxide...

but thats just spitballing

Do you have the actual reaction products?

 

[Chrisn]

What are the end products from the reaction of the engine. Barium Oxide would be my guess which is anhydrous and would suck the water out of the air and make barium hydroxide...

but thats just spitballing

Do you have the actual reaction products?

barium oxide, barium chloride, barium hydroxide

 

[AndyC2]

How's this?

https://aerotech-rocketry.com/custo...uctions/MR-LMS_Loadable/g78g_lms_in_20206.pdf

And this:

https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/c...cuments/OSHA(MSDS)/aerotech_msds_11-11-08.pdf

Ok--What have I missed? It appears that half the people posting here believe that gloves are needed to handle Mojave Green--as well as most other motors. When did that that info come out? .... I just went to the Aerotech website and read the instructions for a Mojave Green reload--nothing was said about gloves. Specifically, it said "...wash hands after handling Mojave Green propellant and before eating".

Take a look at the links Gary provided. One is for an LMS green motor, and the other is a generic MSDS. Both suggest gloves for assembly of Mojave green propellant motors only (step 2.1 for LMS, section 8 in the MSDS). I agree though - I looked at some of the other green reload instructions that I have been using all summer as well, and did not find similar suggestions - just the warning about washing up you noted, hence the suggestion to clarify up front in the instructions *if* and when they are suggested.

I gotta agree about the black gunk too - for me it comes off OK, but the stink can hang around for a day. Gloves are good.

 

[Chrisn]

Looks great! Both a reminder for gloves in the section about loading the grains..... and just remember my gloves from now on... what about adding a line about when/if gloves are recommended/QUOTE]

Ok--What have I missed? It appears that half the people posting here believe that gloves are needed to handle Mojave Green--as well as most other motors. When did that that info come out? I have been flying Mojave Green all year--without gloves--I even have a Mojave Green shirt. I have never worn gloves to load a motor in 17 years--I am still alive. I just went to the Aerotech website and read the instructions for a Mojave Green reload--nothing was said about gloves. Specifically, it said "...wash hands after handling Mojave Green propellant and before eating". Let's not get carried away on the dangers (real and imagined) of any green propellant. I intend to keep doing what I have been doing--using common sense--and I should be fine.
Besides, ever try to find running water on the desert? (Yes, I do carry a whole bunch of baby wipes to clean up--both me and my hardware--and I always use them to clean up prior to eating--nothing to do with Mojave Green ). I do use cheap disposable plastic gloves (Price Club--$9.00 for 2,000) for cleaning out the case after the flight--that is nasty. I did it without gloves a few times--took 2 days to get the black gunk off.

The gloves was a suggestion made by myself and 2 other people posting in this thread, Gary has added it to the instruction sheet which he has uploaded

 

[judo]

If one fiberglasses rockets, then chances are one has nitrile gloves. Add them to the stuff that gets packed for launches.

 

[madsen]

Take a look at the links Gary provided. One is for an LMS green motor, and the other is a generic MSDS. Both suggest gloves for assembly of Mojave green propellant motors only (step 2.1 for LMS, section 8 in the MSDS).

I found it! I found it! You are completely correct. When I looked at the first link that Gary posted, I just looked at the safety information. When I just went back and looked again, I again found nothing--I then went thru the entire instruction sheet word-for-word. Naturally, I never noticed that you gave me the exact location of the instruction. You are right. "The use of disposable rubber gloves when handling Mojave Green propellant is strongly recommended". If you ever saw the movie "Sink the Bismark"--there is a scene where Captain Lindemann of the Bismark tells Admiral Lutjens that Group North has suggested a certain route to break out into the Atlantic--Admiral Lutjens then dryly replies that "we have to take orders from Group North--not suggestions". Now, I have to decide if I want to take "strong recommendations" from Aerotech. I liked living dangerously. It was about the only excitement that I get these days.

 

[Donaldsrockets]

I used the bottom of my shirt when handling Mojave Green grains so I wouldn't touch them directly.

I also did the same while handling Warp-9 grains too although there isn't any warnings concerning handling with those motors.

 

[Garoq]

Take a look at the links Gary provided. One is for an LMS green motor, and the other is a generic MSDS. Both suggest gloves for assembly of Mojave green propellant motors only (step 2.1 for LMS, section 8 in the MSDS). I agree though - I looked at some of the other green reload instructions that I have been using all summer as well, and did not find similar suggestions - just the warning about washing up you noted, hence the suggestion to clarify up front in the instructions *if* and when they are suggested.

I'm going to update the remainder of the MG instructions with similar language.

 

[judo]

Were those the right suggestions or the wrong suggestions from Group North? It's been too long since I saw the movie.

 

[shreadvector]

Obviously MG contains the same substance found in Happy Fun Ball.

Do not taunt MG.

 

[madsen]

Were those the right suggestions or the wrong suggestions from Group North? It's been too long since I saw the movie.

WARNING WARNING: This is off-topic--I am just trying to be polite, and answer a question--and I will probably catch it. I have only seen the movie at least 100 times since 1960. Group North suggested they go south of Iceland. Admiral Lutjens sailed the Bismark north of Iceland thru the Denmark Straight. As everyone knows--in the Denmark Straight, they sunk the Hood. If they had gone south of Iceland--they would have sunk something else. In all cases--the final result would probably have been the same. The song by Johnny Horton is great--I sung it to my kids when they were little--to put them to sleep.

 

[quickburst]

small amounts is deceiving. The amount of Barium NItrate in a typical rocket motor is what? 15-30% by weight?


The 2 G green motors have total propellant weights of 59 and 60 g respectively. do the math thats 6-18g of Barium Nitrate per motor. Thats more than enough to KILL or damge you according to the MSDS.

The AMW LM Green motors have 1900- 4200 g of total propellant. do the math: 280-1200g+ of barium nitrate

You obviously didn't read the MSDS: inhalation causes systemic posioning

MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS MUSCLES (INCLUDING THE HEART), AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.

terry dean

How do you know it's Barium nitrate? Have you had the reloads analyzed? Maybe there is some, me I don't know.

If there is its most likely in the 8 to 10% range, after all you have about 65 to 80% AP, this doesn't leave much room when you have another 10 to 15% R-45m.

Do the math.

Lets see (we'll use averages):
100% Propellant.
70% AP, thats 30% left.
12% R-45, thats 18% left.
3% DOA or other plasticizer, 15% left.
Some metal 5% or so, 10% left.
Toss in some Tepanol, and some Castor oil, 8% left.

Not much room left over is there, (can't be 30%) ? Then there is also the chance Gary's green formula contains Barium Carbonate along with the Barium Nitrate. It may also get the green color from a copper compound, and PVC or something else.

How do you know? Shoot first, ask questions later?

Maybe Gary should be banned, shot, or bar-b-qued by CPSC? Maybe you will arrange this? Maybe we should ban green propellant? Wouldn't this affect AMW and Gorilla Motors as well?

Use the safe distance tables and the safety rules, you'll be OK ..... I promise.

By the way, reading how you have threatened to contact CPSC about this matter puts a whole new light on you. Are you now Dudley Do Right?

I'm sure this post will get butchered.

 

[SpartaChris]

How do you know it's Barium nitrate? Have you had the reloads analyzed? Maybe there is some, me I don't know.

If there is its most likely in the 8 to 10% range, after all you have about 65 to 80% AP, this doesn't leave much room when you have another 10 to 15% R-45m.

Do the math.

Lets see (we'll use averages):
100% Propellant.
70% AP, thats 30% left.
12% R-45, thats 18% left.
3% DOA or other plasticizer, 15% left.
Some metal 5% or so, 10% left.
Toss in some Tepanol, and some Castor oil, 8% left.

Not much room left over is there, (can't be 30%) ? Then there is also the chance Gary's green formula contains Barium Carbonate along with the Barium Nitrate. It may also get the green color from a copper compound, and PVC or something else.

How do you know? Shoot first, ask questions later?

Maybe Gary should be banned, shot, or bar-b-qued by CPSC? Maybe you will arrange this? Maybe we should ban green propellant? Wouldn't this affect AMW and Gorilla Motors as well?

Use the safe distance tables and the safety rules, you'll be OK ..... I promise.

By the way, reading how you have threatened to contact CPSC about this matter puts a whole new light on you. Are you now Dudley Do Right?

I'm sure this post will get butchered.

Well said, David. I'm really getting sick of the people who always go out of their way to find something to complain about. Seems as if inventing problems to complain about is more of a hobby than the actual hobby is!

 

[dr wogz]

Isn't there more pressing things to worry about in our enviroment? I highly doubt the content of a few 'dangerous' chemicals in a item we choose to purchase for fun shoud surely be cause for alarm..

I'm more worried about little bugs on my vegetables & meats. I think about the carcinogens we breath in as we sit in traffic.. The toys we import. The....

 

[AKPilot]

Gentlemen, unfortunately this topic has gotten way-way off course. It's a hard line to know when that time comes, but in my opinion we are there - if not hitting it a while ago.

As stated at the beginning of this forum:

"Vendor announcements, feedback on their products and customer support. Remember that the vendors who are represented here have taken their time to support this forum. Please show them the respect and dignity they deserve."

I don't believe we've filled that intent with many of these postings. If you have a personal question take it off-line through a PM. If you have a sincere interest in knowing something, than ask it in a respectful way.

At this point it's my viewpoint that this has become an attack, versus constructive feedback.

Topic closed . . .