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That said the deaths have been labeled caused by COVID when that is not exactly accurate.
The obits page list the deaths of notables as "Covid related" or "from complications of Covid-19". So i would say those are Covid related deaths, wouldn't you? People that die from underlying medical conditions that were exacerbated by the virus died because of the disease, right? Otherwise they would still be living.
And I believe in a healthy dose of skepticism no matter what the source. But it is a big jump from not taking anything reported just on the face of it to "willful intent to mislead".
 
You might ask yourself why you are personally invested in an outcome one way or the other.
Quite the contrary. I take what is reported, process with other reports from a variety of sources, examine the credibility of those sources, and come to a conclusion.
It seems that you are the one who is personally invested in an outcome by making a blanket statement that:
You can't stick to the facts when you rely on the politicians and media to provide your facts
So all politicians and all media are lying to us?
Pardon my skepticism.
 
I don't agree that a person that is dying from another terminal comorbidity and dies with COVID actually died of COVID or it's a COVID related death anymore than it's an oxygen related death. Just because something that may be exacerbated by X does not mean X caused the death. Also, how can this exacerbation be medically proven with any certainty? My take is simple, I see enough to question and I feel that's healthy. I can point out times in history where the people didn't question when they could and lot the right to do so later. I am sure you are aware of these scenarios as well.
 
So all politicians and all media are lying to us?
Pardon my skepticism.
That's a straw man argument if there is ever one and doesn't warrant a response apart from pointing it out. Corollary, are you saying none are lying to us?
 
Don't know what prior experiences cause you to mistrust politicians and main stream media so much.
The politicians are our elected leaders. These are the ones we have chosen to make the right choices. If not them then who? I believe something said by my governor or mayor far more than something I hear on the street.
As for main stream media, I tend to believe their reporting more than someone's obscure blog or social media.
However, I embrace your right to your opinion. Shall we agree to disagree?
 
Absolutely. I realize I will not change your mind nor will you change mine. I do however appreciate the debate. It keeps me honest as I hope it did the same for you. Peace and hair grease.
 
So I am not a statistician but the way I see what you posted G is the deaths are far less than the reported number of cases. Wouldn't this support what Kid is saying?

Are you trying to say that people have not misreported death cases caused by the virus? Not one?

No, I mean cases where they are intentionally reporting the cause of death as COVID when it wasn't. No lack of awareness but a willful intend to mislead.

And you know this how?
Source?

I am asking. Are you saying that it hasn't happened?

There are reports of people in hospice dying of COVID. They were in hospice for a reason other than COVID but their cause of death was been reported as COVID just because they were tested positive.

There is a case in CT where the Gov. reported that a baby died of COVID after being rushed to the hospital unresponsive. The baby was reported to have had COVID but an autopsy had not been performed and the official cause of death not release but the Gov. reported the CT had the first confirmed infant death due to COVID. I am not speculating or SPECULATING it appears to be happening. You can't stick to the facts when you rely on the politicians and media to provide your facts. There is enough dramatics over this to warrant question. I think something as serious as this deserves scrutiny wouldn't you say?

The inflated death numbers in Italy seem to be suffering the same lack of scrutiny. The Italian doctors themselves are stating that a large number of people who have died in the hospitals that had COVID did not actually die from COVID but due to other preexisting conditions such as heart disease, diabetes or other common causes of death. That said the deaths have been labeled caused by COVID when that is not exactly accurate.

A couple things:

In any large statistical exercise such as this, there are always errors. However, a case here and a case there are lost in the statistical noise. If these issues amount to a few percent of the data, so be it. There is no reason to think that they are material to the size / scale of the story.

For every "extra" COVID-19 death you can point to in one of these things, I'm sure there are plenty that are missed due to failure to test and get the proper diagnosis or simply the cause being considered irrelevant. Nobody is saying the data are perfect, but there is ZERO reason to think that the errors are intentionally wrong on a significant scale (more than a couple percent).

And, if a woman in hospice who tests positive for COVID dies of a lung issue / cytokine storm / or other major symptom of that disease, then it is a VALID cause of death to mark it up to COVID-19. IF she died a day, a week, or a year early, she died of the disease.

Today we may well top 2000 deaths due to the disease in the US. We're over 1800 as I write this. 17 states (at the moment) post >=10 deaths due to it today. Most of these states had close to zero deaths per day a week ago. The storm is coming, and our actions determine the outcome.
 
@KidRockET we can go back and forth all day, but let's make it easy: What's your solution based on these categories:

1. K-12 schools: Open or shut?
2. Colleges/Universities: Open or shut?
3. Dine-in restaurants: Open or shut?
4. Movie theaters: Open or shut?
5. Theme parks & similar entertainment venues: Open or shut?
6. Maid services: Open or shut?
7. Public beaches / tourism / pack the hotels: Open or shut?
8. Places of worship: Live or virtual/streamed? (NOBODY is saying don't pray...)

I would be very interested to hear your specifics on these categories (and other categories you may throw in there). Saying "don't exchange rights for safety" isn't a plan. Nail it down based on the above. Then let's compare.



All open - ALL OF THEM

Give the information to the people, the risks, the good, the bad, the truth...

And let the people decide for themselves how to move forward...

There are ways to social distance in all of the above scenarios...

I have a big problem with a government that issues diktats and threats to the private sector...

I have no problem with government recommendations, guidelines, and such...

It gives me a little hope that some governors have chosen this path...
But ordering the private sector to close is beyond the scope of their authority...

This one-size-fits-all-government is overbearing and dangerous to liberty...
 
I've asked before and I'll ask again. Do you want to be right or wrong on this? Will you be happy if the storm passes?

I do not agree with someone dying in hospice with COVID as dying of COVID unless they were placed in hospice due to COVID. It doesn't make sense to me. If Willy Coyote contracted COVID while he was floating in air after running off the cliff, and died on impact after his fall. Would you say he died of COVID? To me and my overly simplistic way of viewing things, this is the same thing as someone in hospice dying with COVID. Maybe I am not smart enough or nuanced enough to see it it your way.
 
This replay was in response to Marc_G's post.

I've asked before and I'll ask again. Do you want to be right or wrong on this? Will you be happy if the storm passes?

I do not agree with someone dying in hospice with COVID as dying of COVID unless they were placed in hospice due to COVID. It doesn't make sense to me. If Willy Coyote contracted COVID while he was floating in air after running off the cliff, and died on impact after his fall. Would you say he died of COVID? To me and my overly simplistic way of viewing things, this is the same thing as someone in hospice dying with COVID. Maybe I am not smart enough or nuanced enough to see it it your way.
 
All open - ALL OF THEM

Give the information to the people, the risks, the good, the bad, the truth...

And let the people decide for themselves how to move forward...

There are ways to social distance in all of the above scenarios...

I have a big problem with a government that issues diktats and threats to the private sector...

I have no problem with government recommendations, guidelines, and such...

It gives me a little hope that some governors have chosen this path...
But ordering the private sector to close is beyond the scope of their authority...

This one-size-fits-all-government is overbearing and dangerous to liberty...

Thanks for the clarity. We disagree on the correct path forward, but that's par for the course in an open society. Personally I believe that without strong pressure from the government, the outcome would be horrible (1-2 million dead at the low end), because we generally as a society aren't good at changing our habits except in the face of an obvious and immediate threat. And, a 50% chance of catching a disease and a 2% chance of dying if you are diagnosed with it (over the course of a year) isn't scary enough to a lot of people, so few people would observe the guidelines and most of those would suffer from FOMO and abandon their isolation pretty quickly, I think. "Social Distancing-lite" is known not to work.

Also, movies attempted social distancing but couldn't cover costs with so few moviegoers. Classrooms are too small to allow for it. Wouldn't be possible in most schools. Most restaurants can't cover their costs if each table has six feet between it and the next one over. So, I disagree that we could do effective social distancing in the scenarios described.

Oh well, we'll see how it goes.

The statisticians are having a field day with this thing. We had a few days of slow growth of the disease (per reported figures) and now they are saying it might be around 80k deaths (in 4 months, not a year, VERY big difference), but then today we've spiked in many states. Another day or two they will be saying a higher figure, I think.
 
And let the people decide for themselves how to move forward...
Problem with that is there are circumstances when everyone needs to be on the same page.
My mom told me of the weeks/months after Pearl Harbor, where the threat of enemy air bombardment was very real.
The general populace of Honolulu were all ordered to observe nightly blackouts. Windows had to be sealed so no light came through. Neighborhood marshalls enforced these rules.
Can you imagine if everyone could choose for themselves whether to observe those rules?
50% of homes with lights on and 50% blacked out?
Defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
 
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I've asked before and I'll ask again. Do you want to be right or wrong on this? Will you be happy if the storm passes?

I do not agree with someone dying in hospice with COVID as dying of COVID unless they were placed in hospice due to COVID. It doesn't make sense to me. If Willy Coyote contracted COVID while he was floating in air after running off the cliff, and died on impact after his fall. Would you say he died of COVID? To me and my overly simplistic way of viewing things, this is the same thing as someone in hospice dying with COVID. Maybe I am not smart enough or nuanced enough to see it it your way.

First, points to you for using a Coyote/Road Runner reference. Love those cartoons! To answer the question, I would say if Wiley caught COVID on the way down, and died due to lung failure/cytokine storm etc., BEFORE going splat on the ground, then he died of COVID, even if he would have died on impact seconds later. Of course, WE ALL KNOW he doesn't die of impact, explosions, or burning, so what else could it have been BUT COVID? Seriously, the questions some people ask... :eek:
upload_2020-4-7_18-41-18.png

So, cause of death is usually and appropriately the proximal cause of death. If someone has brain cancer, and is expected to live a couple months, then gets COVID-19 and dies three days later due to respiratory problems, they didn't die of the cancer, they died of the respiratory infection. Sometimes it's hard to unravel these things... "well, he had a suppressed immune system due to cancer/treatment and was more susceptible to the disease." Yup, but he he still died of the infection not the cancer.

Sometimes the answer isn't going to be a good one no matter how we mark it up. Person A is in hospice and has weeks to months left. Someone walks in and shoots him dead. Yeah, it's pretty obvious they died due to being shot. Death by gunshot, right? Cut and dry.

Now person B is in hospice for the same issues and is going to die sooner or later. They slip into an unresponsive state and due to their advanced directives, no food or water is given after that. Had a feeding tube and IV fluids been applied, they might have lasted another month. Maybe 2. Did the person die of whatever disease put them in hospice, or due to dehydration? This is a tougher call. My mom's death certificate cited cancer, not dehydration. My point being, hospice is a situation with a "trajectory" and expected things that can likely happen along the way. Such as unresponsive state and dehydration as parts of the "disease progression." An unexpected severe respiratory infection isn't part of that trajectory, so it would typically be cited as cause of death.

Interesting discussion, @grouch ! I look forward to any other aspects of this as long as they can be phrased as cartoon hypotheticals.
 
Interesting discussion, @grouch ! I look forward to any other aspects of this as long as they can be phrased as cartoon hypotheticals.
I'll see what I can come up with later. I'm currently thinking about the world through the eyes of Gilligan's Island.
 
Problem with that is there are circumstances when everyone needs to be on the same page.
My mom told me of the weeks/months after Pearl Harbor, where the threat of enemy air bombardment was very real.
The general populace of Honolulu were all ordered to observe nightly blackouts. Windows had to be sealed so no light came through. Neighborhood marshalls enforced these rules.
Can you imagine if everyone could choose for themselves whether to observe those rules?
50% of homes with lights on and 50% blacked out?
Defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Apples and oranges as they say...

Bombs falling from the sky aimed at a precise location on the ground...

Not even close to what we have been told the risks are with this virus...

But your point is taken, people don't always act in their best interest or others for that matter...
 
Now person B is in hospice for the same issues and is going to die sooner or later. They slip into an unresponsive state and due to their advanced directives, no food or water is given after that. Had a feeding tube and IV fluids been applied, they might have lasted another month. Maybe 2. Did the person die of whatever disease put them in hospice, or due to dehydration? This is a tougher call. My mom's death certificate cited cancer, not dehydration. My point being, hospice is a situation with a "trajectory" and expected things that can likely happen along the way. Such as unresponsive state and dehydration as parts of the "disease progression." An unexpected severe respiratory infection isn't part of that trajectory, so it would typically be cited as cause of death.

This is tangentially relevant, but in WA if someone takes advantage of the Death With Dignity* law, their death certificate is issued with the underlying disease rather than suicide. That makes a difference for life insurance, if nothing else.

* DWD allows a person who is certified by two different doctors to have less than 6 months to live to get a prescription for a lethal overdose. There's other rules and details, but that's the relevant bit.
 
Back to the OP
Essential vs non essential business.
If protocol can be followed in a business be it a grocery store or a hobby shop
The government should not close it down.
Picking who the economic winners and losers are.
My local grocery store is packed all the time.
I have a better chance of contacting the virus in that essential store.
Now my small local gun shop was only allowing 3 people in at a time.
People had to wait outside 6 ft apart.
Smaller chances there.
If a store can follow protocol let them stay open
We will eventually get over the virus, but if we voluntarily put ourselves into a depression where we all come back to no jobs, lose our homes, and can’t support our families,just as fatal.
Especially to those of us close to retirement with no time to start over.
We can be reasonable safe without destroying our way of life
They are not mutually exclusive.
Fascism started in a Germany when people gave up their freedoms for government security.
They got neither in the end
 
It's a tough balancing act. The ideal government would be a benevolent dictatorship with an all knowing, all caring dictator who would always do the "right" thing. Unfortunately, such a human being doesn't currently exist on the planet, so we go for a republic, which though far worse than the above is the next best thing compared to Communism, Socialism, Theocracy, and Anarchy (at least in my opinion!)

"My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" (Google search suggests nobody really knows for sure who came up with this.) It applies well here.

In current situation, Americans practicing their freedom to open and run their businesses put other Americans at risk of DYING.

In this situation, it is absolutely the responsibility of the government to step in and make a call. There are some that advocated, "Do nothing, let the virus run it's course, 80% are going to survive, 17% (or so) are going to need hospitalization which will probably get overwhelmed, so most of them are going to die, and 1-3% if they get it are gonna die no matter what if they get it. Since 80% constitutes a majority, why mess up the economy for the 20% minority." I think the Netherlands actually considered this option, then rejected it.

You don't like this call, you have the opportunity at the next election to change the "callers". Write your local officials and congressman and senator and the President and tell them how you feel.

You make some good points on this forum, it just happens that, for whatever reason, many of us are willing to suffer economic hardship to protect that 20%. We talk about living in a free country, freedom is relative. Great example related to this forum is L1 through L3 certification rules. Many if not most people probably could manage to get the proper learnin' to do it right, but there are always those idjits that manage to hurt themselves, or others, or destroy private property when rules aren't in place, so we have laws about High Powered Rocket flight that are pretty restrictive and frequently a PITB. But I'm glad they are there.

Please feel free to complain and vent your disagreement. But also look for ways to cope with the current rules and help out those who are indeed getting hurt by the current economic crisis which is indeed "imposed" by the government.
 
Knowing Teddy, these masks will rip your nose off before they break...... ;)

Ha,,
Yep,,
You know it Les..
I don't know anything about a rating.
But I did some homework and research and I'm making them
to be as absolutely effective as I can..
I think a big part of that is leaking, especially around the bridge of the nose..
I don't know anything about this really,
just my observations..

Thank you for the vote of confidence though Les..


It's a tough balancing act. The ideal government would be a benevolent dictatorship with an all knowing, all caring dictator who would always do the "right" thing. Unfortunately, such a human being doesn't currently exist on the planet, so we go for a republic, which though far worse than the above is the next best thing compared to Communism, Socialism, Theocracy, and Anarchy (at least in my opinion!)

"My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" (Google search suggests nobody really knows for sure who came up with this.) It applies well here.

In current situation, Americans practicing their freedom to open and run their businesses put other Americans at risk of DYING.

In this situation, it is absolutely the responsibility of the government to step in and make a call. There are some that advocated, "Do nothing, let the virus run it's course, 80% are going to survive, 17% (or so) are going to need hospitalization which will probably get overwhelmed, so most of them are going to die, and 1-3% if they get it are gonna die no matter what if they get it. Since 80% constitutes a majority, why mess up the economy for the 20% minority." I think the Netherlands actually considered this option, then rejected it.

You don't like this call, you have the opportunity at the next election to change the "callers". Write your local officials and congressman and senator and the President and tell them how you feel.

You make some good points on this forum, it just happens that, for whatever reason, many of us are willing to suffer economic hardship to protect that 20%. We talk about living in a free country, freedom is relative. Great example related to this forum is L1 through L3 certification rules. Many if not most people probably could manage to get the proper learnin' to do it right, but there are always those idjits that manage to hurt themselves, or others, or destroy private property when rules aren't in place, so we have laws about High Powered Rocket flight that are pretty restrictive and frequently a PITB. But I'm glad they are there.

Please feel free to complain and vent your disagreement. But also look for ways to cope with the current rules and help out those who are indeed getting hurt by the current economic crisis which is indeed "imposed" by the government.

Good man..
Very reasonable..
Not that being a thoughtful person always helps,
it often confuses the situation..

Thank you though..

Teddy
 
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I have, first hand, and more. Safety devices save lives. This is why we have the laws we have. When you think beyond yourself, you see things differently.

Bike helmets are a in that category. I would not be sitting here typing if not for a bike helmet. Would have died on 15th July 2010.

If people don't get the safety thing then sometimes regulations are needed to "encourage" them. Think about seatbelts, and how much load off the medical system and the families of people in crashes has been removed since their introduction.
 
How much freedom are you willing to give up for safety?
There are many people who would like to take my firearms away because of all the people killed by them.
Where does it start? Where does it end?
Hard questions
 
thru all of this, i'm reminded of the lady who got millions for burning her crotch with hot coffee..

A lot of the regulations are due to stupidity, and someone [generally] profiteering from it..

As for 'essential services', the provinces of Quebec & Ontario are closed. All non essential businesses are closed, and many are taking to staying at home. I've been laid off, and don't expect to go back to work until may 4th at the earliest.. Montreal has cancelled all festivals until July 2nd.
 
Please describe what you consider hardship.
Certainly no hardships compared with DYING, but for many people the social distancing rules and closures of "nonessential businesses, has resulted in either complete job loss/layoff, decreased pay, or for the self employed decreased income. Also drops in the stock market have hit the reserves of many, for those on the verge of retirement who have not the time for stock market to recover, this can be considerable.

For those previously economically living "paycheck to paycheck" this is potentially economically devastating. the "Government" stimulus will likely help, but we can't just rely on the "Government." Those of us "haves" can help out the "have nots" with contributions to food banks, charities, meals on wheels, use your imagination.
 
Certainly no hardships compared with DYING, but for many people the social distancing rules and closures of "nonessential businesses, has resulted in either complete job loss/layoff, decreased pay, or for the self employed decreased income. Also drops in the stock market have hit the reserves of many, for those on the verge of retirement who have not the time for stock market to recover, this can be considerable.

For those previously economically living "paycheck to paycheck" this is potentially economically devastating. the "Government" stimulus will likely help, but we can't just rely on the "Government." Those of us "haves" can help out the "have nots" with contributions to food banks, charities, meals on wheels, use your imagination.

I can imagine being at the end of the food line. If this continues for months, I have no idea about how deep this recession will go, and it may reach much further than most are willing to consider.

I don't consider myself as one of the "have's", but I do OK (for now). I am a business owner that pays about 30-50K/week in payroll/benefits, depending on jobs. I consider hardship losing my business through foreclosure, laying off my employees, losing my house, my car, and my savings. If I fail, I turn 15-20 people to the streets, including myself and my wife. Hardship is when I have to work as an Uber driver, just go on welfare, or starve and die..... This view is very bleak, and I hope it doesn't come to fruition.

The government actions are in a direction where they have no idea what the consequences are. My opinion is we (as a society) will be climbing out of this hole for months/years, if ever. I hope I'm wrong.

The default action by the government should be to do something only when you know the consequences, even if bad. If you choose the path where you don't know the results of your decisions, do so at your peril, which is where we are, uncharted territory.

My point is, a decrease in your retirement account balance isn't hardship, nor is decreasing your trips to restaurants, stores, etc....

If we just have different perspectives, concerns or worries, I understand.
 
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