Nike 10 Degree Cone Tranfer

[Bruiser]

I was looking for different paint scheme for a Nike Smoke. I like the look of the rocket but don't particularly care for the paint scheme plus I like to be different.

I stumbled upon a thread with this picture and I liked it. https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=17423


That thread also had a link to a video that showed the rocket at around the 2:45 mark


At the same time I had stumbled on a rocket that used a MIM-23 Hawk motor with Honest John style fins. While I researched that rocket I ran across this drawing by Mr. Alway.

Upon closer study I realized that this rocket has the same dimensions as the Nike Smoke. I do not think the nose cone is the same because it is copper in color and I don't think it expels any smoke. Reading the title of the drawing I thought the rocket was designed to test heat transfer over the nose cone but I was wrong.

In the sources, it mentions a report, NACA RM L56F11a. I found the right combinations of words for the search engine, found the report and was able to read the document. It turns out that the heat test was for the fins. The fin profile was specially designed and one fin was fitted with the heat sensors.

It wasn't until today that I put the info (picture and video) from the thread mentioned above together with Mr. Alway's drawing and the NACA report. I believe they are all the same test rocket

So this is my next project. I am going to modify a Estes 7247 Nike Smoke to reflect this rocket. I am also going to install a 24mm engine mount. The fins are going to be a laminate construction like on the Estes Honest John 7240 kit that I finished not long ago.

The kit came in today so construction is going to start Monday. It's all planned out in my head

The only aspect of the build that I have not decided on is the detail of the fin mounting. I have been searching for how the fins actually mount to the fin can on the Nike Smoke but I can not find a picture. Does anyone have a picture of the fin mounting on a Nike Smoke they could share?

Have a great weekend,
-Bob

 

[kuririn]

Bob,
In MarkB's thread at YORF, which you have linked above, there is an attached pdf file. On the third page is a good illustration of how the fins are mounted.

 

[Leo]

I made a fin can that is to scale except for the fin mounting brackets and the screw mounts. I can't find any data on those.

Pictured is a near perfect 3D print. I made an error with the brackets not touching the fins.

It fits a BT-55 body tube. I will also make a nose cone to scale.

You think the brackets and the screws are OK?

 

[Bruiser]

Kuririn,

I had read that pdf and the Modified Diamond Fin is close to the style of the special fin design on this rocket. It's probably safe to theorize that is the style of mounting but what it does not show is how many bolts? Page three shows a different fin that is bolted on with 6 bolts on each side. I'll use that info if I have to but an actual picture of a Nike Smoke would confirm what I suspect.

Leo, your printed can looks very nice. I think the brackets look good. Did you find a reference for the four bolts on each side?

I've been out to the Missile Park at White Sands and they do not have a Smoke on display. Yesterday I stopped by the Space Museum in Alamogordo to see if they had one but they don't. They do have a Nike-Ajax on display but it has a entirely different style of fin mounting. I was extremely happy to see it there because I am going to build a 1/10th scale version some day. I am still looking for a reference drawing for a Nike Ajax.

-Bob

 

[Leo]

No, I just guessed. Like I mentioned I can't find any data on them.

 

[Bruiser]

While at the Space Museum I did take this photo of the fin mounting/can of a Nike Apache. This is what I will base my model on if I can't find the same photo of a Smoke. I will just go with a one piece flange and 6 bolts.


-Bob

 

[kuririn]

Would the mounting for the Honest John fins be the same as the Nike fins?

 

[Bruiser]

I am starting to think that there were no external bolts for the fins on the Smoke. I found this picture of the fin mount assy for a Nike Cajun and there does not seem to be any external bolts holding the fin on.


I also found this picture which is a Nike Cajun booster. These pictures make it seem the fin mounts wrapped around the M5 rocket motor then fins would be bolted on then the fin can cover would be slid into place.


-Bob

 

[kuririn]

I checked Peter's ROTW, which is the first thing I should have done, and it doesn't show external fin bolt flanges. Plus these two dimensional drawings don't show any either (below). Plus every scale model of the Smoke doesn't either, including the highly detailed PS II model. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say there were none.
(In the first dimensional drawing the exploded fin can section appears to show a two part fin can, fins with six bolt flanges on each side, and a slotted fin cover. But the resolution is so poor that I can't make out the details when I magnify it).




P.S. Interesting reading Peter's copy on the Smoke, changing the original 36 deg. nose to a 10 deg. one doubled the altitude in computer sims. Maybe I should put long skinny conical nose cones on all my rockets! Cheers.

 

[Bruiser]

Something is not quite right in that first drawing. According to the exploded view of the assy, those fins would have to use external bolts for mounting.

You can see the opening in the can cover (1) is just a rectangular hole in the metal. There is no way it could slide over the fin if the fin was installed. It also shows six bolts on each side to secure the fin to the mount. That line you see on the cover is the weld seam

Then I realized that is not the correct drawing for a Smoke. The fins are a different style and it would be the correct drawing for this booster, not a Smoke.


The mystery deepens...

-Bob

 

[Bruiser]

Duplicate

 

[Bruiser]

So looking at the pictures closer, which is tough because of the resolution, I am convinced there was a forward part of the can and an aft part

You can definitely see a seam (1) and the hint of a seam in front of that seam (2). I think there was an aft can (3) and a forward can (4). I speculate that the fin mounts were fitted around the booster, then the forward can was slid on and attached to the booster motor. Next I think the fins were bolted on to the fin mount then the aft can (3) was slid into place and attached to the forward can (4) and the fin mounts.

That also corresponds to the line drawing on the Smoke


Mystery solved?

-Bob

 

[kuririn]

I think it's safe to say that the bolts and flanges are internal. Time to build this puppy!
Copper nose cone, magnesium fin can, olive drab body, HoJo fins. Can't wait to see this. The white stenciled lettering might be difficult, however.

 

[Bruiser]

Oh my, just when I thought we had this figured out...

I have been looking for a picture I remembered seeing of a fin can assembly for the last several days and I couldn't find it. It turns out it was saved on my laptop but it was in a Word documant so that's why I couldn't find it. Anyway, I don't remember where I got it from but check this out:



Now that in all by itself doesn't ruin any of the conclusions we have come to because we really don't know what it is, right? I mean it does look like the special fins and that does look like a M5 booster with that style fin mounts, but not conclusive tight?

Well, then I remembered there was a picture of the actual rocket on a launcher in the NACA report. I pulled up the report and after fighting a little I was able to extract the picture...

I couldn't really make out the fin can in that picture too well but do you suppose it could be exactly like the picture above?

So, do I go with this as the fin can or do I stick with the fin can illustrated in Mr. Alway's drawing like in the first post of this thread? Mr. Alway's drawing would certainly be easier Hell, at this point I am about ready to drop this one for now and go back to the Nike-Nike two stage. It might be the easier of the two! ha-ha!

-Bob

I don't know how I did this but was able to find a better quality picture and I am back to Mr. Alway's drawing. You can see there is a cover over the mounts. In the lower quality picture it looked like you can see the fin mounts, but I don't believe that is the case.



No more research for me on this one

-Bob

 

[kuririn]

I'm looking at ROTW right now and the boosters of the Nike-Cajun and Nike-Asp rockets have the interlocking bands and bolts. So I don't believe this applies to the Smoke. By then the fin can probably evolved to a better design.

 

[kuririn]

BTW going back to your previous question in the other thread about the Nike Hawk: Could the Nike Hawk also be known as the Nike-Orion? Found this webpage in Italian:

https://nikemissile.forumfree.it/?t=69847671

The Orion/Hawk used surplus MIM23A army Hawk motors. The Nike Orion/Hawk used surplus Nike Ajax boosters. With the redesigned fins and 10 deg. nose cone it looks nothing like the army Hawk.

 

[Leo]

Bob,

great updates. Could you post links to the info or maybe email the documents to me ([email protected])

I've removed the brackets.

Here print in progress:

 

[Leo]

OK, 3D parts complete.... ready for the paint job

Only real problem will be how to work out the white lettering on the body tube....

 

[Bruiser]

BTW going back to your previous question in the other thread about the Nike Hawk: Could the Nike Hawk also be known as the Nike-Orion? Found this webpage in Italian:

I think that is entirely possible. What we seemed to discover in that other thread is that the NASA Hawk evolved into the Orion, first with a fin change from the Honest John style fin to the swept fin then the nosecone changed. I don't think I've seen a picture of the original NASA Hawk on a booster, just writing about it. It seems that for awhile they were using the name Hawk and Orion interchangeably though, but as the program evolved, the name Hawk was dropped.

-Bob

 

[Bruiser]

Leo, that is some great work you are doing there. I am tempted to ask if it would be much trouble to scale that up to a BT-60 tube but I have already started cutting out the fins. Still, I'd love to get my hands on your fin can and nose cone scaled to a BT60 tube.

I can't attach the files because I get a message saying they are too large.

The first one has to do with studying the heat transfer over the fins. It may be that this version has a white nose cone like the model in the first post of this thread. https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc62723/m2/1/high_res_d/19930089374.pdf

The second one has to do with the heat transfer over the nosecone. The nosecone is copper in this test. I had trouble finding this one again but here you go:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930089689.pdf

-Bob

 

[Leo]

Thanks for the links.

I did a quick check and I could print for BT-60. The fin can would fin on the build plate. The nose cone being 11.275 inches in length would need to be printed in 3 parts, no biggie.

 

[Bruiser]

Leo, I sent you a message.

-Bob

 

[PeterAlway]

I'm delighted to see someone building the Nike Heat-Transfer test rocket. I think that big copper nosecone will look really cool.

Reading the title of the drawing I thought the rocket was designed to test heat transfer over the nose cone but I was wrong.

In the sources, it mentions a report, NACA RM L56F11a. I found the right combinations of words for the search engine, found the report and was able to read the document. It turns out that the heat test was for the fins. The fin profile was specially designed and one fin was fitted with the heat sensors.

The rocket was testing both fin and nose heat transfer. The second paper I referenced covers that. I listed the fin heat transfer paper first, because the drawing in that paper shows more fin detail and just as much nose detail.

I couldn't really make out the fin can in that picture too well but do you suppose it could be exactly like the picture above?

So, do I go with this as the fin can or do I stick with the fin can illustrated in Mr. Alway's drawing like in the first post of this thread? Mr. Alway's drawing would certainly be easier

I often leave details out of drawings that I'm not super confident about. You are right that the photo shows doodads that I didn't draw. If you want that extra detail, go for it!

Another theme in this thread is trying to sort out fin attachement mechanism by rocket type. This way lies madness. NACA and NASA used several different fin brackets and planforms over time, and used different upper stages both at different times and at the same time. So it's not as simple as "Nike Cajun used these fin brackets and Nike Apache used those fin brackets." You have to figure it out on a case-by-case basis. In "Rockets of the World," I tried to draw up individual correct rockets, as that's the best anyone can do.

In recent years, I discovered it's even harder with the Nike Smoke. The Nike Smoke used *two* different fin sizes--2.0 square foot fins, and 2.5 square foot fins. Whenever the new edition gets done, it will show examples of both.

So the current edition shows, if I recall correctly, a drawing with the larger fin size, but a photo with the smaller fin size. Fortunately, the paint scheme in the book was used with both fin sizes. But the cool one with copper-colored (anodized?) fins actually used the 2.0 square foot fins.

Peter Alway

 

[Bruiser]

Good Evening Sir,

Thank you for that information. I had no idea that the method of attachment would change with the "same" rockets. I have been studying up on this rocket and the only photos I can find have the "open" can.





My next rocket is going to be the Nike-Nike Smoke. The fin attachment looks very smooth on it. I plan on going back up to the space museum to look at the Nike Ajax they have on display. I remember it has no external bolts on it. I've liked the Nike-Ajax and now that I have found one so close I will build one of them too. All I need is a nice drawing of one to start with. It'll be another 1/10th scale so a bt-60 tube for the booster.

 

[Leo]

Peter,

do you have any details on the size of the stencil in numbers so I can better reference it to my BT-55 size build?

 

[Bruiser]

This was going to be my build thread but it took on a life of it's own so I started a new thread titled "Nike Heat".

Still stressing over which fin can. Go easy with the drawing or go hard with the photo,,,

-Bob

 

[PeterAlway]

do you have any details on the size of the stencil in numbers so I can better reference it to my BT-55 size build?

Not really. All I can say for sure is that the stencils are whatever was originally on the Nike boosters diverted from the Nike Ajax program. I had forgotten my choice for the dummy serial number .

 

[rharshberger]

I am not sure if the fins used on the Nike 10degree Heat Transfer are standard fins or not they do not appear in this document about the standard fins, and yes the fin shroud two pieces if the fins are not bolted on via the 6 bolts each side. My opinion is that the rocket on the rail actually uses the standard 2.0 or 2.75 sq ft. Modified Diamond Fins, its the angle of the fins to the camera that give the impression of a swept style fin. In one of the pictures of the Mod Diamond fins it has the fin mounting system pictured, including the two part upper and lower shrouds.

 

[Leo]

This was going to be my build thread but it took on a life of it's own so I started a new thread titled "Nike Heat".

Still stressing over which fin can. Go easy with the drawing or go hard with the photo,,,

-Bob

Apologies for hijacking your thread Bob! I didn't realize it was going to be a build thread.

 

[Bruiser]

You didn't hijack anything Leo, it just evolved into an "requesting and sharing info" thread

-Bob