homemade casings for rockets

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Nathaniel_

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Is it legal in canada to create casings for mid power rocket engines. I would buy the fuel grains and not make them.
 
First of all how old are you really? Profile page says 33 in another post seems under 18. I don't know Canadian laws on that at all but if you have the know how, don't see what would be illegal about making them. How and when you use them is a different story. If under 18 forget about it and refer back to this thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/level-1-certification.148709/
 
Nathaniel_ said:
Is it legal in canada to create casings for mid power rocket engines. I would buy the fuel grains and not make them.
Click to expand...

Hi Nathaniel, I had to read your post several times to be sure I understand. Even now, I'm not sure where you are going with this. I can't understand WHY do you want to do this? If you are purchasing the "grains", why not also purchase the case? Your question concerns me, but - I'll try to help if I can.

Making a rocket motor case is probably not a lot different from making a birdhouse or a quilt, or many other things. The biggest risk I can think of - your home-made motor will probably resemble a pipe bomb or an "M-80" in the eyes of law enforcement. Putting a "purchased" fuel grain into a home-made case is a safety-code violation in Canada and the USA in most cases. A Tripoli "Experimental" launch is the only possible exception I can think of.

The most important thing of all is - :):):) - SAFETY ;)o_O:D.

Rules and laws -help- keep you and me and everyone else safe. Rocketry is mostly a very safe hobby, and we keep it that way by following the safety code. My suggestion for you is to memorize the CAR safety code, especially #2. That will help you a lot.
 
Don't know Canadian law. Lots of people in the US make their own hardware, turn their own nozzles, cut snap rings, etc. It takes engineering knowledge, the right tools, the right materials.

But once made, you may struggle to find an RSO or a club that let's you fly them. And don't use steel or PVC as they can fragment and turn into shrapnel.
 
Bat-mite said:
Don't know Canadian law. Lots of people in the US make their own hardware, turn their own nozzles, cut snap rings, etc. It takes engineering knowledge, the right tools, the right materials.

But once made, you may struggle to find an RSO or a club that let's you fly them. And don't use steel or PVC as they can fragment and turn into shrapnel.
Click to expand...

Bat-mite, I have made both APCP and sugar motors from 20-300 mm in size. When my aluminum cases fail in CATOs there is usually from 2-6 fragments, all sharp. When my steel cases fail, they generally spit the bulkhead or nozzle or split into just one or two pieces. With my steel nozzles and bulkheads, I never had one fragment and 95% of the time I simply wash it off and reuse.

I'd like to see some actual data/photos on steel motors fragmenting rate vs aluminum.
 
Sabrina said:
Hi Nathaniel, I had to read your post several times to be sure I understand. Even now, I'm not sure where you are going with this. I can't understand WHY do you want to do this? If you are purchasing the "grains", why not also purchase the case? Your question concerns me, but - I'll try to help if I can.

Making a rocket motor case is probably not a lot different from making a birdhouse or a quilt, or many other things. The biggest risk I can think of - your home-made motor will probably resemble a pipe bomb or an "M-80" in the eyes of law enforcement. Putting a "purchased" fuel grain into a home-made case is a safety-code violation in Canada and the USA in most cases. A Tripoli "Experimental" launch is the only possible exception I can think of.

The most important thing of all is - :):):) - SAFETY ;)o_O:D.

Rules and laws -help- keep you and me and everyone else safe. Rocketry is mostly a very safe hobby, and we keep it that way by following the safety code. My suggestion for you is to memorize the CAR safety code, especially #2. That will help you a lot.
Click to expand...

Sabrina, I totally agree with you on safety. Anyone wanting to safely experiment making motors needs experience. How do you get 'experience'? You find a mentor that will help advise and supervise. As for doing experimental motors of any kind, the FAR site is one such place.

https://friendsofamateurrocketry.org/
 
Sabrina said:
Making a rocket motor case is probably not a lot different from making a birdhouse or a quilt, or many other things. The biggest risk I can think of - your home-made motor will probably resemble a pipe bomb or an "M-80" in the eyes of law enforcement. Putting a "purchased" fuel grain into a home-made case is a safety-code violation in Canada and the USA in most cases. A Tripoli "Experimental" launch is the only possible exception I can think of.

Rules and laws -help- keep you and me and everyone else safe. Rocketry is mostly a very safe hobby, and we keep it that way by following the safety code. My suggestion for you is to memorize the CAR safety code, especially #2. That will help you a lot.
Click to expand...

Tripoli Experimental launches are quite common.

I have a 29mm snap ring case that uses commercial fuel grains. Why? Several reasons. Short version? I can make motors that don't exist commercially.

Saying that putting commercial fuel grains into a "homemade case" is a safety code violation is misleading at best.

Referring to it as a "pipe bomb" is simple fear mongering.

CAR rules are great....except... Tripoli operates worldwide.

I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but I'd contact a TRA club in canada as a starting point for advice- https://www.tripoli.org/Prefectures/mapID/4/hsid/1/shsc/True


djs said:
One day Sabrina is going to be NAR or Tripoli president. Or both!
Click to expand...

Why? nothing she said here was of any use to the OP's question and was simply discouraging...
 
DavidMcCann said:
I have a 29mm snap ring case that uses commercial fuel grains. Why? Several reasons. Short version? I can make motors that don't exist commercially.
Click to expand...

Not to derail the thread, but do you document any of your work? I've been wanting to try the same - making custom motors from commercial parts. I'd love to hear what has and hasn't worked for you.
 
DavidMcCann said:
Tripoli Experimental launches are quite common.

I have a 29mm snap ring case that uses commercial fuel grains. Why? Several reasons. Short version? I can make motors that don't exist commercially.

Saying that putting commercial fuel grains into a "homemade case" is a safety code violation is misleading at best.

Referring to it as a "pipe bomb" is simple fear mongering.

CAR rules are great....except... Tripoli operates worldwide.

I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but I'd contact a TRA club in canada as a starting point for advice- https://www.tripoli.org/Prefectures/mapID/4/hsid/1/shsc/True




Why? nothing she said here was of any use to the OP's question and was simply discouraging...
Click to expand...


Thank you for these comments David. Sharing of ideas is a good thing, and didn't mean to discourage the OP. :confused::oops::( That wasn't my intention at all, but I can really see how it might appear that way.

I know a lot of folks fly "EX" at my home-field (Bong), but these are usually "Kitchen-Aid" or mixer motors. Is building frankenstein motors with commercial grains... is that a popular thing where you fly? I haven't heard much about that. Just wondering if it's popular?o_O
 
Sabrina said:
I know a lot of folks fly "EX" at my home-field (Bong), but these are usually "Kitchen-Aid" or mixer motors. Is building frankenstein motors with commercial grains... is that a popular thing where you fly? I haven't heard much about that. Just wondering if it's popular?o_O
Click to expand...
I like to do my extremely tiny experiments with lightly modified commercial reloads. I want to be extremely clear that I strictly follow a probably overly-paranoid safety regimen, haven't yet split a case or spit a nozzle, and only once prematurely burned through a delay ( so far ).

Without discussing specifics, I'm definitely leaning toward the idea that practicing characterization and motor design on known commercial propellants with well understood software is a much better baby step than jumping right into a mix party.

REMINDER: even these minor modifications makes it full-EX and should be treated with a complete measure of abundant caution.
 
Sabrina said:
I know a lot of folks fly "EX" at my home-field (Bong), but these are usually "Kitchen-Aid" or mixer motors. Is building frankenstein motors with commercial grains... is that a popular thing where you fly? I haven't heard much about that. Just wondering if it's popular?o_O
Click to expand...

Well,true "Frankenstein" hardware is quite rare, but available with the right pocketbook ;)
https://lokiresearch.com/secure/store.asp?groupid=52120034052913

I don't think anything in HPR is quite popular enough to be called popular.... It's a wide ranging unique hobby. And, to the OPs question, Any EX would require TRA L2, even mid-power sized to launch at a TRA launch. In the US it gets fuzzy depending on your opinion/local recognition of NFPA as to the legality of it. In Canada, I'd suspect it's not legal, but don't know the actual law so I'd refer to a Canadian club for an actual fact based opinion.

But, do people do it around here? yea I've seen it done from time to time. Wouldn't call it common, wouldn't call it odd.
 
CoyoteNumber2 said:
Not to derail the thread, but do you document any of your work? I've been wanting to try the same - making custom motors from commercial parts. I'd love to hear what has and hasn't worked for you.
Click to expand...
When our EX aluminum case motors CATO, we usually pick up 3-5 torn jagged edges pieces. When our steel case motors CATO it's normally 2 or 3 pieces. This is in motor case sizes from 75-150 mmm diameter.
 
Just follow TRA research guidelines. Use ONLY Aluminum, Filament wound fiberglass (must have 55 degree wind angle) with proper phenolic liner. You can buy casings and liners from RCS AeroTech Parts. Never Ever use steel, it is too heavy anyway and it will fragment like a grenade if your pressure is too high. Tripoli does not even allow pvc casings as it fragments too, but not anywhere near as much as steel and in small motors like E-G sized actually is safe from 100ft. away. If you are making big propellant grains, buy a Reload casing from AeroTech, CTI or others. They have done all the work there...utilize it!
 
"Just follow TRA research guidelines. "

Agree! But don't go on to make up stuff.....

"Use ONLY Aluminum, Filament wound fiberglass (must have 55 degree wind angle) with proper phenolic liner."​

Go read the rules as you say.
 
beeblebrox said:
Tripoli does not even allow pvc casings as it fragments too, but not anywhere near as much as steel and in small motors like E-G sized actually is safe from 100ft. away.
Click to expand...

Beg to differ, 'safe' and 'PVC casings' should not be used in the same sentence. First off, seamless steel is at least rated (or rate-able) for pressure, PVC is not intended for pressurized gas except in underground installation; even then, it fails just as often as it would aboveground. The pressure rating for water in PVC assumes new, undamaged pipe not exposed to the elements. Even a scratch de-rates it to some degree. Google 'PVC pressure accident' to learn about people who thought that PVC piping for a mere 100 psi compressed-air installation was a good idea...

I speak from some experience. In my early days I was inside a garage about 50 ft from a G-motor in PVC pipe when it let go. The sound of pieces hitting the door...

For those concerned about cost, 6063 aluminum (not quite as strong as 6061, but still) 1.5" tubing 14 ga (0.083 wall) is advertised at less than 20 bucks for a 6' piece:

https://www.globaltecheng.com/Produ...0&pageStyle=m&idcategory=28&VS1=0&VS2=0&VS4=0

Texas Towers sells thinner-wall tubing which I've used for 29 and 38 mm single-use motors, very successfully.

Best -- Terry
 
FredA said:
"Just follow TRA research guidelines. "

Agree! But don't go on to make up stuff.....

"Use ONLY Aluminum, Filament wound fiberglass (must have 55 degree wind angle) with proper phenolic liner."​

Go read the rules as you say.
Click to expand...
I did not make up anything, don't be rude...
 
beeblebrox said:
I did not make up anything, don't be rude...
Click to expand...
From the TRA website. Nothing whatever on fiberglass:
7.2.2. Research motors shall not be fabricated of steel or other frangible materials (e.g. PVC).
7.2.2.1. Cases (including hybrid cylinders), front and rear closures, and nozzles shall not be fabricated of steel.
7.2.2.2. Screws, washers, compression rings and related closures, and sealing devices shall be exempt from requirement 7.2.2.1.
 
Yes, and you can wind any angle you want and you don't have to use a proper [or improper] phenolic liner.
 
prfesser said:
Beg to differ, 'safe' and 'PVC casings' should not be used in the same sentence. First off, seamless steel is at least rated (or rate-able) for pressure, PVC is not intended for pressurized gas except in underground installation; even then, it fails just as often as it would aboveground. The pressure rating for water in PVC assumes new, undamaged pipe not exposed to the elements. Even a scratch de-rates it to some degree. Google 'PVC pressure accident' to learn about people who thought that PVC piping for a mere 100 psi compressed-air installation was a good idea...

I speak from some experience. In my early days I was inside a garage about 50 ft from a G-motor in PVC pipe when it let go. The sound of pieces hitting the door...

For those concerned about cost, 6063 aluminum (not quite as strong as 6061, but still) 1.5" tubing 14 ga (0.083 wall) is advertised at less than 20 bucks for a 6' piece:

https://www.globaltecheng.com/Produ...0&pageStyle=m&idcategory=28&VS1=0&VS2=0&VS4=0

Texas Towers sells thinner-wall tubing which I've used for 29 and 38 mm single-use motors, very successfully.

Best -- Terry
Click to expand...
Do you use this with Aerotech grains? What liner?
 
MikeyDSlagle said:
Do you use this with Aerotech grains? What liner?
Click to expand...
I used the 6063 tubing, both with spiral phenolic liners and with paper liners I wound myself, and with my own propellants. Mostly 2-grain 38mm which is what I usually use for testing. Everything from a fast blue to a slow black smoke propellant, no problems.

Best -- Terry
 
FredA said:
Yes, and you can wind any angle you want and you don't have to use a proper [or improper] phenolic liner.
Click to expand...
Wind angle is important. 55 degrees is optimal for rocket motors constructed of straight cylinders of filament wound material. That does not mean that other wind angles wont work. they just wont be as strong. BUT if the case can withstand 2000psi with optimum wind and 1000psi with non optimum wind for example, running the motor at 500psi wont be a problem. not trying to do a full class on motor design, but why not use what other engineers have determined to be the best? look at this for some information...
https://www.polymerjournals.com/pdfdownload/994244.pdf
 

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