# Updates...

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#### rklapp

##### NAR# 109557
TRF Supporter
Back in business with new Amazon batteries. I still have the rechargeable lithium 9v on order to try those out. (I could also post the video of the 14.8v lipos).

Also, got my Spring Sale order from Estes. This is my second order from them with no 2021 catalog.

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#### NOLA_BAR

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Question about the V2. I installed the retainer clip from Apogee which is 24x70. The D12-3 worked great, probably 200ft for a 300g rocket. The D21-4 probably went 400ft (but the delay sucked). What are my other viable alternatives and where can I get them? I could remove the clip and insert a new block to extend the motor tube to 24x95. I might be able to attach a screw on retainer or it would have to be friction fit. What do you suggest?

View attachment 457161

Looks like I can get the D15 pack from Chris Rocket Supply for $36 total. View attachment 457165 What about the new 24mm Q-Jets? They should be out soon. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter What about the new 24mm Q-Jets? They should be out soon. View attachment 457340 Yes, very nice. The D21T-4 (figured out the T was for Blue Thunder) looked more like it had a 7 second delay because that's how long it took to hit the ground. I'd say it went up to 400ft on a 20Ns motor. The E26W at 27.9Ns might go up to 600ft which is good. Apogee said the V2 will go 951ft on an E18W-4 (probably 800ft in tropical air) with a 39Ns motor. I've never done a reloadable before. I think it can be shipped to me by boat but will need to call Apogee. There's also the E20W-4 at 36Ns. The E6-4 is interesting but says it's 77mm length so it would stick out 7mm. Another alternative is to put in an E12-4 in. I could take out the retaining hook and motor block, or I could friction fit. I'm afraid it might go horizontal like the Estes Shuttle. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter My Estes Spring Sale fleet. I’m embarrassed to say that I destroyed the Air Walker. I was too impatient with the CA. I meant to only buy one Booster55. Oh well... #### NOLA_BAR ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Yes, very nice. The D21T-4 (figured out the T was for Blue Thunder) looked more like it had a 7 second delay because that's how long it took to hit the ground. I'd say it went up to 400ft on a 20Ns motor. The E26W at 27.9Ns might go up to 600ft which is good. Apogee said the V2 will go 951ft on an E18W-4 (probably 800ft in tropical air) with a 39Ns motor. I've never done a reloadable before. I think it can be shipped to me by boat but will need to call Apogee. There's also the E20W-4 at 36Ns. The E6-4 is interesting but says it's 77mm length so it would stick out 7mm. Another alternative is to put in an E12-4 in. I could take out the retaining hook and motor block, or I could friction fit. I'm afraid it might go horizontal like the Estes Shuttle. I have both the 24/40 and 24/60 AT casings. The 24/60 is the longer “E” length. The reloads are pretty straightforward. The E18, F24 and F35(24/60) are all nice motors. The F35 really packs a punch. I prefer the white motors over the blue. Not sure how easily you can remove the hook and thrust ring without damage. If you can get it out then maybe add a retainer like the Rocketarium? #### NOLA_BAR ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter The only thing about the AT white reloads motors is they do have a tendency to chuff. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter I have both the 24/40 and 24/60 AT casings. The 24/60 is the longer “E” length. The reloads are pretty straightforward. The E18, F24 and F35(24/60) are all nice motors. The F35 really packs a punch. I prefer the white motors over the blue. Not sure how easily you can remove the hook and thrust ring without damage. If you can get it out then maybe add a retainer like the Rocketarium? I'm wondering how detrimental it would be to have the E length sticking out the end like this. I can try to sim it later. I can cut the end of the retaining hook and push the front end up out of the way then replace the motor block. If I remove the steering vanes, I might be able to install a screw on retainer. #### NOLA_BAR ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter I'm wondering how detrimental it would be to have the E length sticking out the end like this. I can try to sim it later. I can cut the end of the retaining hook and push the front end up out of the way then replace the motor block. If I remove the steering vanes, I might be able to install a screw on retainer. View attachment 457460 Oh boy, no I would not do that. I say stick with the 70mm engine mount and hook. If you want more kick than a D12, then look at the AT 24/40 with an E18 or F24. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter Oh boy, no I would not do that. I say stick with the 70mm engine mount and hook. If you want more kick than a D12, then look at the AT 24/40 with an E18 or F24. Thanks. That's what I was thinking. (refer back to #694) I asked Apogee and they said there isn't a upcharge for shipping by boat. Other vendors only ship to the continental US. Last edited: #### NOLA_BAR ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Thanks. That's what I was thinking. (refer back to #694) I asked Apogee and they said there isn't a upcharge for shipping by boat. Other vendors only ship to the continental US. View attachment 457466 You will also need the casing for the E18 unless you already have it. Boy motors sure add up quick! #### kuririn ##### BARGeezer TRF Lifetime Supporter TRF Supporter IIRC Tim Van Milligan wrote an article about using longer 24mm motors in a D sized engine mount. One option was to let the longer motor just stick out the back. I think he used tape wrap to keep the motor retained at ejection. Tried searching for it in the Apogee newsletter archives but coming up empty. #### Sooner Boomer ##### Well-Known Member IIRC Tim Van Milligan wrote an article about using longer 24mm motors in a D sized engine mount. One option was to let the longer motor just stick out the back. I think he used tape wrap to keep the motor retained at ejection. Tried searching for it in the Apogee newsletter archives but coming up empty. I've done that. It had a motor hook, so I wrapped a piece of wire around the engine and hook several times and twisted it with pliers to make it really tight. You have to have a bit of extra nose weight margin, too, in the original rocket. #### mbeels ##### Yes balsa TRF Supporter Yeah, I think sticking out the back is just fine. You can also do CHAD staging which is a complete motor hanging off the rear end. As long as it is retained somehow (tape?) and the rocket is stable, you're good to fly. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter IIRC Tim Van Milligan wrote an article about using longer 24mm motors in a D sized engine mount. One option was to let the longer motor just stick out the back. I think he used tape wrap to keep the motor retained at ejection. Tried searching for it in the Apogee newsletter archives but coming up empty. Now that you mention it, I think he covered it in a video. After all, the E motor doesn’t stick out that far from the fin and can tape to the hook, plus there’s a crap load of clay already in the NC. Bwahhahhah... #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter Spring sale rockets on a somewhat windy day I launched several of the rockets I got from the Estes Spring sale. The forecast was for up to 6mph winds but instead was up to 10mph so stuck to streamers and C11 motors. The Sundancer is a RTF rocket and plan to use it as a wind checker. The Flip Flyer is surprisingly fun and a lot less finicky than the Mini A Heli. The grass was still a bit wet which could be why the motor didn't light. The park was well mowed today. Eventually, three official looking people showed up and started filming the park, probably for the City. I made sure to wave at them with one of my rockets. I suspect they knew the park will be visited by dignitaries so they brought in their best landscaper who could actually mow in straight lines. Made it easier to find the booster... I bought Booster--55 for the Spirit and the Chiller. I like the Chiller more than the Spirit (more cooler) so finally decided to try the Spirit/Booster in the questionable wind. I'll try the Chiller/Booster next time with an altimeter since the D12-0/B6-4 looked like it went far. However, I ran out of B motors so might have to use an A or C. I'm not sure why the streamer didn't fully unroll. It didn't get too singed. After many flights, I decided the Goblin (with the BT-60) needed an extra 4 inches plus a baffle. I also decided to compare the altitude with the rebuilt Honest John. (The first is still on the gym roof.) They were almost at the same altitude but could be because of changing winds. 00:00 Sundancer 4pts 01:16 Flip Flyer 5pts 02:52 Spirit 5pts 04:55 Goblin Ext. 201ft 5pts 06:15 Honest John 193ft 5pts 07:20 Total 24pts #### Mike Haberer ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter IIRC Tim Van Milligan wrote an article about using longer 24mm motors in a D sized engine mount. One option was to let the longer motor just stick out the back. I think he used tape wrap to keep the motor retained at ejection. Tried searching for it in the Apogee newsletter archives but coming up empty. I never use engine blocks or motor hooks in 24mm MMTs anymore. I use either Aeropack or Rocketarium retainers (3D printed retainers would be ideal, but no printer) and just make thrust rings out of tape on Estes engines. One must keep their options open.... #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter I never use engine blocks or motor hooks in 24mm MMTs anymore. I use either Aeropack or Rocketarium retainers (3D printed retainers would be ideal, but no printer) and just make thrust rings out of tape on Estes engines. One must keep their options open.... I’ve wondered why Tim decided to include a 70mm hook with the V2 conversion kit. I figured there must/might be a good reason and went with it. This has forced me to learn what could go into the rocket. @neil_w has been a great resource. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter Odd’l F-16. This is a really fun kit and not too expensive. I hope the canopy stays on. They give you two so you can pick which is best one after cutting them out. They also give some extra decals. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter This is what happens when your build process outpaces your launch abilities. Elon said they will be disassembling the BN1. I'm surprised they won't at least cryo test the booster but perhaps there's too many flaws and oopsies. Last edited: #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter Hunting for Easter eggs with rockets. Three altimeters and one Astrocam Ventured out to the park on Easter. This time, Christopher's friend, Emily joined us again. The winds continue to be an obstacle with 15 to 23 mph gusts. Usually the winds die down in the evening but not lately. I was tempted to go back to the iPhone for the far view. Decided to try out the cam which worked sorta okay despite the low light. I was aiming too low so need to figure out the best position to point at when tracking the descents. We were hoping the eggronaut would survive but alas, the chute didn't open. The flight up was a bit wobbly so probably need a bigger egg and more talc. Fortunately, I didn't angle the rod too much or it might have landed on the court. I didn't launch the Mega Vortico like I'm supposed to at half mast but didn't matter because I used the thin rod. I think Emily is starting to trust that we're not gonna blow her face off with the rockets. The Twin Factor had the best launch of its life. Pretty amazing for a cardstock rocket. I had two launch fails. The first starter definitely ignited but probably wasn't inserted far enough in. The second fail had crossed starter wires. I recently replaced the two 9v batteries. The off-brand and the Li-ion rechargeable batteries didn't work. The Amazon batteries are the best. I added yellow electrical tape to the Astrocam cam. This provides a bit of stand-off to point the cam away from the rocket and helps with locating the cam if it falls into the grass. Next time, I'll attach the altimeter to the shock cord. I've been connecting the altimeters to the nose cone because it seems easier to retrieve if/when the rocket lands in the trees. The Astrocam worked surprisingly well in the low light. I had trouble inserting the cam into this video. The editing software doesn't like it, so I used VidCoder to convert the AVI to MP4 and audio from 8khz to 48khz. I also dropped the volume to 10% but this may have been too much. The Spirit went an amazing 868ft on an A8-5 (with a little help from the D12-0). The winds seemed to die down but then picked up for the XAM. I was going to use a D12-5 then chickened out and used the C11-5 which went an awesome 446ft. Good choice... 00:00 Intro 00:05 Egg Lofter 3pts 01:31 Mega Vortico 3pts 02:36 Twin Factor 4pts 03:39 Galaxy Rescue 3pts 04:55 Astrocam 196ft 5pts 06:11 Flight video 06:48 Spirit 6pts 08:33 XAM 446ft 5pts 10:21 Total 29pts Last edited: #### BABAR ##### Builds Rockets for NASA TRF Lifetime Supporter TRF Supporter Congrats on getting them all back safely with those winds, especially the multistage! #### neil_w ##### Good at some things TRF Supporter Nice set of flights. I nabbed a Twin Factor at the Cyber Monday sale (for$3 or whatever), that's a fun little 2-stage flight with easy recovery.

Use -3 (or even better, a -0) motor on the Vortico. You don't want the ejection charge firing so close to the ground.

It brings me an unreasonable amount of joy to see that spent motor on the rod, keeping the rockets off the blast deflector plate.

The Twin Factor had the best launch of its life. Pretty amazing for a cardstock rocket. I had two launch fails. The first starter definitely ignited but probably wasn't inserted far enough in. The second fail had crossed starter wires. I recently replaced the two 9v batteries. The off-brand and the Li-ion rechargeable batteries didn't work. The Amazon batteries are the best.
Disappointing. I need to understand this. And my offer still stands.

#### rklapp

##### NAR# 109557
TRF Supporter
Congrats on getting them all back safely with those winds, especially the multistage!
Some rockets can be sent on a booster in 23mph gust winds and come right back. Some will go on an adventure with a B6-4.

Nice set of flights. I nabbed a Twin Factor at the Cyber Monday sale (for $3 or whatever), that's a fun little 2-stage flight with easy recovery. Use -3 (or even better, a -0) motor on the Vortico. You don't want the ejection charge firing so close to the ground. It brings me an unreasonable amount of joy to see that spent motor on the rod, keeping the rockets off the blast deflector plate. Disappointing. I need to understand this. And my offer still stands. I ended up with an excess of C11-7. I think I bought them for the Loadstar and accidentally double ordered. That’s what happens when the motors have to travel by slow boat and I forget what I ordered. I’m in the process of returning the Li-ion batteries. It’s a mystery why the voltage and current are the same but only the Amazon batteries will ignite the starters. How does one measure the quality of a battery other than V=IR? I’m also trying to convince my wife to share her nail polish for the starters but she says she doesn’t have any. Go figure... #### neil_w ##### Good at some things TRF Supporter I’m in the process of returning the Li-ion batteries. It’s a mystery why the voltage and current are the same but only the Amazon batteries will ignite the starters. How does one measure the quality of a battery other than V=IR? I don't trust your current measurement. The AC measurement circuit in the meter is not designed to do what you're asking it to do. Still, the bad performance of the Li-ion batteries is disappointing, and I wish I understood it better. Bottom line is, just don't use 9V batteries for this purpose when there are other better alternatives. #### kuririn ##### BARGeezer TRF Lifetime Supporter TRF Supporter I’m also trying to convince my wife to share her nail polish for the starters but she says she doesn’t have any. Go figure... I picked up some cheap clear fingernail polish at Longs a couple of years ago. Still have it. Empty one of your rounds and dip the starter first in the nail polish then in the grains. I dipped a couple hundred in Quick Dip so I'm not using BP/polish anymore. #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter Bottom line is, just don't use 9V batteries for this purpose when there are other better alternatives. I'm trying but I'm addicted to 9v batteries and need that sweat taste in my veins. Empty one of your rounds and dip the starter first in the nail polish then in the grains. You mean like a 13mm or 18mm? I figure as soon as I buy some Quick Dip, the motors will come with pyrogenic starters. I have lots of smokeless gunpowder but no BP for a muzzleloader. Too much work (like a reloadable motor)... #### rklapp ##### NAR# 109557 TRF Supporter I don’t know why this rocket has been kicking my butt. I ordered one for$10 and messed up the MM. I got so angry, I did a n00b on the BT. So I did the only thing I could do and ordered another for 10. This time I misaligned the MM. Before I could n00b the rocket again, I decided to try and cut the end off and reglue it which worked but with a scar. Is this what happens when I skip the Beginner rockets and start with Intermediates? #### Greg Furtman ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter I don’t know why this rocket has been kicking my butt. I ordered one for10 and messed up the MM. I got so angry, I did a n00b on the BT. So I did the only thing I could do and ordered another for \$10. This time I misaligned the MM. Before I could n00b the rocket again, I decided to try and cut the end off and reglue it which worked but with a scar. Is this what happens when I skip the Beginner rockets and start with Intermediates?

View attachment 458763
What kind of glue did you use for installing the MM? I've found with even small rockets that wood glue (Titebond II) grabs too quickly so I've been using epoxy for installing MMs.

#### BABAR

##### Builds Rockets for NASA
TRF Lifetime Supporter
TRF Supporter
What kind of glue did you use for installing the MM? I've found with even small rockets that wood glue (Titebond II) grabs too quickly so I've been using epoxy for installing MMs.
Are the motor mount centering rings paper or wood? My understanding is that for paper to paper, good white glue (not school glue) WHEN DRY is as strong as wood glue. For purposes of motor mount installation, white glue has two advantages over wood glue. Mainly, it allows a longer working time, less likely to grab prematurely. (That said, I test fit, test fit again, test fit again making sure I know exactly how far I am going to push in the mount, THEN apply the white glue and promptly and smoothly try to get it inserted in one smooth motion.) Since as opposed to fins, once you put the motor mount in it pretty much stays where you put it, the longer cure time for wood glue generally isn’t much of a disadvantage, especially since it is usually one of the first steps in building a rocket, and white glue cure time is generally less than paint cure time.

the second advantage (which I have read about but haven’t experienced, possibly because I don’t use wood glue for motor mounts) is that wood glue shrinks more, which may pucker the outer tube.

white glue has two advantages over epoxy for low power (I assume high power and maybe mid power has wood or possibly now with 3D printing plastic centering rings, white glue is a relative loser for anything but paper to paper.). 1. White glue is lighter than epoxy. 2. You don’t have to worry about ventilation, gloves, and annoying fumes with white glue.

YMMV.