To continue or give it up?

[Delta-IV]

Well, as its been said here on this forum before making/selling rocket kits is a money losing adventure.

Well for me I've broken even, my display models (non-flying heavier than lead) are selling well with virtually no advertising and at a worthwhile profit.

So should I continue to offer limited run kits is my dilemma. Jonrocket has been offering my kits but their sales are slow and Apogee has offered to sell them too. However I can just barely break even in order to make them at least somewhat affordable.

I am building a prototype Atlas V 551 configuration model but as a Display. Previously my displays have been based on the kit versions but I am leaning away from the kits.

So what am I asking: Is their a real desire for these somewhat less than affordable type kits I offer? Should I advertise more (increase unit $$ as a result)? Should I just let Dr. Zooch, etc offer smaller less-scale detailed type kits of the current US rockets? Is the quality of my kits less than expected?

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated....

 

[Daddyisabar]

Your stuff is still on my wish list but like everyone I am still waiting for the gravy train to arrive in this economy. Keep up the good work. Don't waste money on general ads because most of the people who have the skill and interest are here on the forums or are associated with a club/NAR/Tripoli. For the higher end stuff I think a lot of club members tend to buy what they see fly because they get the wants or the “I can do better” when they see someone else flying it. Keeping up the buzz on the forums is also good.
I was just at Apogee and the Das Modell kits are not “flying off the shelf” either. Just a very small niche market with folks lacking cash.
What do I want more: Your Deltas, Sandman Nike Hurc, Apogee Saturn, a Cosmodrome or Sirus, or a beating from the wife for spending too much on rockets.

 

[kruland]

You kits are on my wish list too. Would it be economical to sell just wraps, instructions and patterns and let us acquire the appropriate parts? This might make purchase of the really important stuff easier on the wallets.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Yeah, I'd like to get one of your Delta Heavies, maybe a medium, but my real interest lies in the Atlas... so they're on the "wish list" but right now the money is the problem.

Kruland has a pretty good idea... you might just consider selling "builder's packs" with the instructions and maybe some of the more specialized parts (tailcone, nosecones, detail parts) and let folks come up with their own tubes, recovery stuff, motor mounts, and such. I could afford to pull the trigger on something like that...

Later! OL JR

 

[troj]

Being realistic, I don't think your kits are ever going to appeal to anyone other than the dedicated hobbyists. That's not a problem; it just has to be factored into your sales projections and expectations.

Were I not buried under a million kits, and trying to keep myself from buying more, I'd likely grab one of your Delta IIIs -- it's a darned cool rocket (which is why we built a big one!).

Maybe the thing to do is raise the MSRP of each kit by $10 and give yourself a raise? Or consider selling some directly, as well as allowing dealers, and pocket a few buckets extra when you sell one direct?

-Kevin

 

[Shade]

I have your kits (now I need to build a few), I would have paid more,
they are very topshelf. But maybe selling a set of instructions and
the wraps and let the builder source most of the common materials
would be a more profitable solution.

But I have to agree with Kevin, they are for the dedicated builder.
You are fighting the same issue Centuri and Estes did for years with
their level 5 kits.

 

[dmjung]

They're also on my list. Just haven't gotten around to ordering them due to price and my existing workload. I'll rectify that problem in the near future.

I assume you've looked at the Fine Scale Modeler and Real Space modeling crowd angle...

--David

 

[JStitz]

I'm embarrased. I honestly didn't notice that You put a link on your 1st Atlas post.
I didn't know they were your kits and I started messing around with the Smoker and some raw meat thinking about mentioning the link in the AtlasV thread.
Bang..then I saw this post. I am also struggling to pay the electric bill but was fudging cash into a fund for finishing materials and possibly some new rockets. Yea..I know why are the broke guys still in the hobby.

 

[Jiffycoil]

I checked out Chris's (hcmbanjo) build of your DELTA II kit and it looks amazing. That's a load of detail on that kit. I will be going to check out your other offerings . I'm just getting started so I don't have dozens if not more than a hundred kits in my build pile as many do. But, I can sure see how that can happen in a hurry. From a marketing stand point Its my opinion that your scale kits appeal to a more select group of builders. As for advertising I feel your market is the folks you already communicate with on forums, clubs, and launches. This post made me take a closer look at your Scale model kits.
Just my two cents for what it's worth.

 

[gdjsky01]

I am gonna sound harsh. I have two of your kits and plan to buy more. Frankly you make the kits as a labor of love. If you hate it, don't do it as it'll show in your work. YOU decide, not by me begging. Do it because there are people like me who want to duplicate your success and pride at launch. To do it for profit is just not a realistic outlook when your market is, at best, in the 100s of units ( or less).

Do or do not.. But don't kid yourself. Do it for the love of the hobby, not for profit. There just isn't any for such specialized and 'relatively' expensive kits.

I love your kits and hope you decide to continue. :wink:
Not tryin to be a jerk. Just want you to make the right decision based on expectation

 

[turbofireball]

I think you have great kits. So to answer the question in your post:

"So what am I asking: Is their a real desire for these somewhat less than affordable type kits I offer? Should I advertise more (increase unit $$ as a result)?"

If you have sold any kits, then there is a desire for the items you offer. Advertising more will always help, but if you don't want to spend the extra cash (or don't have it) for advertising, then the next best way to get the word out is sell your products thru more stores. To not sell direct, and only sell thru one online store does not help your company.

You say: "Apogee has offered to sell them too". They should already be there (I have no affiliation with that company). Your kits appearing at more online stores will also help your google presence.

 

[Peartree]

I'm in the category of "cheap" or "thrifty." I generally don't have a lot to spend so I build infrequently and often from scratch. That said, I love to see well-designed and well-built kits. I also know that everyone is not like me. There are folk who can afford, and who are willing, to spend real money on a good quality kit. If I were you, I would decide what amount of profit is an acceptable amount and then charge that amount. If the kits don't sell at that price, then don't sell them.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Advertising more will always help, but if you don't want to spend the extra cash (or don't have it) for advertising, then the next best way to get the word out is sell your products thru more stores. To not sell direct, and only sell thru one online store does not help your company.

You say: "Apogee has offered to sell them too". They should already be there (I have no affiliation with that company). Your kits appearing at more online stores will also help your google presence.

This isn't necessarily true for the rocketry community, and it's been born out by various vendors and statistics they've compiled. While advertising for "entry level" kits and stuff (Estes RTF rockets mostly) DOES increase exposure and thus bring in more "newbs" who want to try something new and buy a starter kit and some motors, for "niche products" like scale models and the like, advertising has a MUCH more limited impact and cost/benefit ratio. The pool of interested buyers is much smaller to start with (mostly craftsman type modelers who've been in rocketry awhile), so spending money reaching vast audiences of folks and newbs that wouldn't be interested or capable or could afford a 'craftsman' type kit is hardly worthwhile. "Free" advertising like here on the forums and stuff is the best bet to reach the widest potential client base at the highest cost/benefit ratio, IMHO. Exposure is a good thing as well, and having the kit available from several vendors increases exposure, but it also tends to drive up costs... because the vendor wants to make a profit as well, which must be factored into the cost of the kit. Either the original maker ends up selling kits "wholesale" and therefore competing with his vendors (and usually ticking them off in the process) or the kit remains sold by the vendors and kitmaker at "retail" and therefore a higher price point, which means that some folks who might otherwise buy a kit don't because the price is more than they can (or want) to pay.

It's a fine line... Later! OL JR

 

[JAL3]

For my own, selfish reasons, I do NOT want you to give up. That is because everything I have seen indicates a quality product and I would buy them all if I could (translated: had an income). I especially want to get the heavy.

That said, you have to do what makes sense to you. If you are just breaking even, then is a question of if the labor of love is worth it to you. I hope it is but would never presume to make that decision for anyone but myself.

 

[sodmeister]

Well Carl ,you know how I feel about your kits ,because I have them all and have built most of them !!

I keep mine as museum pieces ,because that was always my intension ,as display models and am very proud of them !!

All I left to build is my Delta heavy (the BIG one)which is the first two of your kits I ever bought.

The Delta Medium 5+4 24mm is a grand looking model when built ,the Heavy should /will look even more impressive ,if that`s possible ?

I love your kits ,and think it fills a niche ,for me anyway !

I for one hope you don`t give up !!!!!!

Paul T

 

[dmjung]

Bought one from JonRocket to see what I'm missing...and I've been thinking about your situation since it applies to some niche activities I've been looking at getting into.

You're in the hobby, assembly-kit, realspace, flying-rocket, cluster-motor arena. (Ignoring static prebuilt.) Each step is a reduction in the population that might be interested in your product.

I think by the time you get to the cluster-motor area you're looking at a fairly small market-size. And then the price shrinks that some more.

From my perspective, the one thing that really stopped me from purchasing previously was the cluster-motor descriptions. I'm sure they can all? be flown on a single motor, but that's not obvious from anything I read. So I guess you might put some thought into which of these can be successfully flown on a single motor and make that obvious in the descriptions which ones with what motors. That would at least get rid of the cluster-motor issue. FWIW.

--David

 

[Delta-IV]

snip...snip...

From my perspective, the one thing that really stopped me from purchasing previously was the cluster-motor descriptions. I'm sure they can all? be flown on a single motor, but that's not obvious from anything I read. So I guess you might put some thought into which of these can be successfully flown on a single motor and make that obvious in the descriptions which ones with what motors. That would at least get rid of the cluster-motor issue. FWIW.

--David

Thanks David and all above for the feedback.

For the 18mm Delta IV M42 and M54, yes a C6-3 will work for a single motor flight. The Delta II and III if they were built light could also do a short but workable C6-3 single motor flight as well. The 18mm Heavy would be way underpowered.

Still thinking of which direction I'll take, but I am leaning towards continuing as Jeff said "Do it for the love of the hobby", well that is why I started it, and I haven't fallen out of love for it.

Thanks all!

 

[Dr.Zooch]

Vern Estes is the only person who will ever get rich off of this business, the rest of us need to find our own reasons to stay in it.

Example; this past month has been just plain bad for me in the rocket business- everything going wrong that could go wrong- computers dying, parts running out and replacement orders delayed, stockroom dwindling, orders going astray, customers scamming- you name it a zillion different things. And ya' look at it and say "I ought to just bag this crap." That thought is the result of the fact that this is actually "a job" and it has to be done.

The one thing that keeps me going is every time I'm putting together a Saturn V kit or some other kit, I try and stop for a moment and consider the fact that someone is going to get that kit, and it is going to make them happy In fact, it may even make their whole week, or whole month, or it may even take them back to delightful moments in their own childhood. To me those parts in those boxes are only components that I have to inventory, stock, check and worry about... but to the person who gets the box, it is much, much more. And by me making up that kit and sending it out, I am providing someone- out there- someplace, with some happiness.

Think about that for a moment.

Thus, Delta-IV, if you wanna just crunch the numbers of the dollars and dimes and divide that buy your time spend, you will find the mathematical result being that there isn't enough bread in this business to make a respectable crap sandwich. However, if you factor in the concept of making someone you've never met happy, it changes the outlook.

IMO- my rocket kits are the paperback version of "scale" (ugh, I hate that word), model rocketry. Yours are the leather-bound hardcover version- the high end, the kind people want to buy and have on display while knowing it has the potential to fly. Mine are what they gleefully launch knowing it has the potential to end up in a tree.

No one but you can decide if you should continue or give it up.

Excuse me now... I have more F#&%ing Vostoks to build... why am I doin' this again?... Oh, yeah... now I remember....

 

[Shade]

Excuse me now... I have more F#&%ing Vostoks to build... why am I doin' this again?... Oh, yeah... now I remember....

LOL, I gotta buy you a beer...

 

[Rocketcrab]

Your Delta kits are on my wish list too. I'd love to have them all. But as has been said before, if it's no longer enjoyable for you to produce them.........

 

[cwbullet]

next time jonrockets website works, I will buy one. It is down today.

 

[bguffer]

Hope you keep making them, so i can continue buying/building them. Even if you charge more and produce runs less frequently.

Bob

 

[jadebox]

next time jonrockets website works, I will buy one. It is down today.

JonRocket.com (and RocketReviews.com) should be back online later this afternoon. I couldn't get to the site this morning, so I initiated a reboot of the server. Later, I learned that it was a network problem, not a problem with my server. But, the server apparently didn't do a clean shut down. So, it is doing a file system check right now. The check takes a while. Once it is complete, the sites will be back.

-- Roger

 

[gdjsky01]

One thing I would love from Zooch or DFR is a kit that contains enough parts for one complete rocket and another set of just the unique parts. I always want two and yes I could just BUY two. But being me, I have tubing, and balsa, and centering rings, and can make pattern copies that are 100% sized, etc. it's the unique things I need. Kind of a complete kit and a short kit.

That might also make some kits more affordable. Just and idea. Many R/C old timers are only available in short kits.

 

[Zeus-cat]

You have some impressive kits sir. I will admit that I have never built one and they cost more than I would probably be willing to spend for a low power kit. However, if you let me digress for a moment I want to tell you something I did for a different on-line community.

About 10 years ago I started playing a World War II flight simulation called IL-2. While playing the game I learned how to create missions that others could play. The guys in my squad always enjoyed my missions, so I kept making more. Then I learned how to create campaigns for the game (a campaign is a series of missions linked together which are played in a specific order). I spent 500 hours making that first campaign. I really enjoyed making it and hoped others would enjoy playing it. I posted it to a website and good some really good reviews by people who played it.

The campaign was never very popular because I specifically chose an unusual plane for my campaign. Most people want to play with the high powered American or German fighters and blast everything out of the sky. Instead, I chose an obscure Russian single-engine torpedo bomber. It is slow, highly non-maneuverable, flies like a brick, but at least it’s ugly. I created a great story that unfolded through the 30 missions for the campaign. For those people that took the time to play they seemed to love it.

I went on to build six more campaigns for the community. Except for one, they took hundreds of hours to make. Like my first campaign, I always chose what were referred to players as “crap” planes. In addition to the Russian torpedo bomber, I had two campaigns for a Japanese seaplane, two campaigns for the Douglas dive bomber SBD-3, and a B-25 skip bombing campaign. My most popular campaign (10,000 downloads and an editor’s choice selection from the website) was a training campaign I slapped together over a weekend.

I didn’t get a dime for doing any of this work. I did it because I enjoyed it and was darn good at it. My training campaign helped thousands of people enjoy the simulation to an extent they never thought possible because they learned some key things from my campaign.

I really hope you can make some money making your kits, but if nothing else you WILL make some people very happy.

The best of luck to you sir!

 

[mjennings]

The D2 and D4 18mm's have been on my wish list for a while but are at the high end of my rocket budget. From the pics I've seen and what others have said your work is top notch.

As an advertising idea what about doing a build article in Sport Rocketry? I know they are always looking for articles. An article on how you developed one of the kits would be pretty interesting as well.

 

[Delta-IV]

Okay,

Just got that 2nd wind and decided to go forward.

So, what configuration of an Atlas V 18mm to start with be of interest to the group?

A AV551 (5 meter fairing and 5 SRM), a AV431 (4 Meter, Exposed Centaur and 3 SRM) or a AV401 (4 Meter, Exposed Centaur, 0 SRM).

The AV401 kit option can also be upgraded with the Boeing CST-100 and the Sierra Nevada Dream Chaser payloads.

 

[Shade]

Okay,

Just got that 2nd wind and decided to go forward.

So, what configuration of an Atlas V 18mm to start with be of interest to the group?

A AV551 (5 meter fairing and 5 SRM), a AV431 (4 Meter, Exposed Centaur and 3 SRM) or a AV401 (4 Meter, Exposded Centaur, 0 SRM).

The AV401 kit option can also be upgraded with the Boeing CST-100 and the Sierra Nevada Dream Chaser payloads.

All of them! And I will take one of each, LOL, seriously I would.

My first choice would be the AV551.

 

[sodmeister]

All of them! And I will take one of each, LOL, seriously I would.

My first choice would be the AV551.

That`s exactly what i was going to say....EXACTLY !!!!!



Paul t

 

[luke strawwalker]

I'm with the other guys... love the Atlas... how about making it "builder's choice" as far as SRM's go, with either a version for the 4 meter PLF or the 5 meter PLF?? It's more trouble to make 2 cones, but if you're already planning to offer a CST-100 and/or Dreamchaser, why not... in for a penny, in for a pound.

Personally I like the 551. That or the single SRM version... just because it's different...

Later! OL JR