Starliner and flammable space tape

[cvanc]

Folks WTF happened here?

I'm under the impression this tape/overwrap is ubiquitous in aerospace and has been used for many years, do I have that right? It's not unique to Starliner; and it's not a new product.

So I guess the certification of this existing product got changed? Is that what occurred here? Will talk of this tape issue spread to other airframes? Is this a industry-wide problem?

Thanks.

 

[Antares JS]

Yes, it's ubiquitous, no the certification did not change, no the issue is not going to spread beyond Boeing.

The problem is that Boeing used it in areas that are going to be experiencing higher temperatures than the tape is certified for.

 

[jqavins]

I hadn't heard about this. A fire attributed to Kapton tape?

 

[Antares JS]

I hadn't heard about this. A fire attributed to Kapton tape?

It's the reason why the first crewed Starliner flight, previously scheduled for late July, is now "indefinitely delayed."

No fire occurred. I assume some sort of analysis recently revealed the problem. I believe the issue is with fiberglass cloth tape, not kapton tape.

 

[Peartree]

That's not going to be a fun job.

Disassembling stuff and removing layers of sticky tape, that may well be underneath other stuff, then removing all the sticky residue, because that residue may inhibit the stickiness of the replacement tape, then replacing the sticky tape with NEW sticky tape, reassembling everything, then retesting things like vibration analysis and any contacts that might have been loosened.

Ugh.

Definitely not a fun job.

 

[Antares JS]

That's not going to be a fun job.

Disassembling stuff and removing layers of sticky tape, that may well be underneath other stuff, then removing all the sticky residue, because that residue may inhibit the stickiness of the replacement tape, then replacing the sticky tape with NEW sticky tape, reassembling everything, then retesting things like vibration analysis and any contacts that might have been loosened.

Ugh.

Definitely not a fun job.

Yep. They are basically going to have to disassemble the whole thing to fix this. I wonder if there has been any serious consideration from them of just taking a partially complete service module from another flight.

Regardless, it's yet another humiliation on top of all the other self-inflicted wounds Boeing has received from the Starliner project.

 

[jqavins]

I believe the issue is with fiberglass cloth tape, not kapton tape.

Well, that's what I get for assuming. (There's no need for the ass quote.) "Aerospace" plus "ubiquitous tape" = Kapton, right?

That's not going to be a fun job.

Disassembling stuff and removing layers of sticky tape, that may well be underneath other stuff, then removing all the sticky residue, because that residue may inhibit the stickiness of the replacement tape...

Not only might it interfere with adhesion of new tape, but for all we know it could be the material (as opposed to the film) that causes the concern.

 

[techrat]

What's sad is that Boeing used to be the top dog in this game. They were a firm run by engineers and turned out products like the 747, which is still the Queen of the Skies as far as I am concerned. The B-52 is still in service, and is expected to still be in service long after I am dead. But the company got taken over by MBA's whose only concern was stock price, and the commitment to quality and safety has suffered. I don't need to remind anyone here what a disaster the 737 Max was, and now Starliner is turning out to be a gigantic boondoggle. How the mighty have fallen.

 

[Charles_McG]

The spaceflightnow article calls out the adhesive of P213 tape as the issue.

 

[Antares JS]

Well, that's what I get for assuming. (There's no need for the ass quote.) "Aerospace" plus "ubiquitous tape" = Kapton, right?

Fiberglass cloth tape is used to bundle and chafe-protect wiring. P213 is fiberglass cloth tape.

 

[jqavins]

What's sad is that Boeing used to be the top dog in this game. They were a firm run by engineers and turned out products like the 747, which is still the Queen of the Skies as far as I am concerned. The B-52 is still in service, and is expected to still be in service long after I am dead. But the company got taken over by MBA's whose only concern was stock price, and the commitment to quality and safety has suffered. I don't need to remind anyone here what a disaster the 737 Max was, and now Starliner is turning out to be a gigantic boondoggle. How the mighty have fallen.

All true, but not certainly germane here. The military air, civilian air, and space divisions are run like separate companies, though they do of course answer to the same BoD and stockholders. A cock-up like this is certainly more likely when a company's culture underemphasizes solid engineering in favor of the quick buck, but they just as certainly can happen even under the best of conditions.

All the same, yes, the mighty have slipped quite a bit even if not altogether fallen. They seem to be opening the door for a new competitor.

• Boeing and LockMart were the only two US suppliers of space launches, and SpaceX has already broken into that market, with others that may manage to join soon.
• Boeing is the only US supplier of large civilian aircraft, with Airbus being the only foreign competitor, but that door may be opening for LockMart to re-enter that market if the want to (but they don't) or for someone like Bombardier (Canadian manufacturer of commuter jets) to enter. (Or a super well funded startup? There's a certain tech entrepreneur who, though he seems to have become insane recently, does have a record of success in not one but two really difficult and high cost industries.)
• Boeing and LockMart are the only major US suppliers of military fixed wing aircraft, and the door is opening to possibly let some smaller player grow (in terms of both vehicle size and market share).

 

[aerostadt]

The earliest Starliner can launch is next March. In addition to tape problems there are chute problems.

https://spaceflightnow.com/2023/08/...starliner-spacecraft-slips-to-at-least-march/

 

[haroldrice]

Do you mean last March or next March?

 

[aerostadt]

Hopefully, Starliner will be going up in May.

https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/03/...wed-flight-of-starliner-to-the-space-station/