Level 1 Cert Rocket Kit Recommendations

[davidjpage]

Hi everyone, I've been a rocketeer for about 3 year total staying in the mid power arena and looking to finally move to high powered rocketry. So I would much appreciate recommendations for a rocket kit that will get me to level 1. If it can also get me to level 2 that would be great and I like scale rockets kits. Was looking at the Loc P4" Patriot kit... any thoughts?

 

[DAllen]

4" LOC Goblin

/thread

 

[DAllen]

L1 flight: I600

L2 flight: J500 or J350 or ....

One rocket - one case - 2 flights. So long as you have a big enough field

 

[Titan II]

https://www.rocketryforum.com/search/544429/?q=l1+cert+rocket+recommendation&o=relevance
https://www.madcowrocketry.com/98-cardboard-plywood/
Personal opinion for L1 and L2 is the DX3, but it is not scale.

 

[Art Upton]

My humble opinion is any rocket whose fins does NOT extend below 1-1/2 " above the bottom of the body tube to keep fin issues out of the process.

Yes I have a LOC IV with 4 outboard 24mm motors also in the motor mount, it is in my shed with a broken fin or two from almost 2 decades ago... but it was not my cert rocket.

That fin broke at NYPower on an I69 in the center with 4 D-12s Air started about 75 feet off the ground. Fin Broke on landing in a hard grass field.

NOTE: Back then the LOC IV TTW fins only went thru the body tube, they did not go all the way to the motor mount tube so today's models should hold up much better then the old ones.

 

[Scott_650]

From your location info I’m assuming you’ll be doing your qual flight with the TMO or WSR clubs - both launch areas are pretty generous (especially TMOs) for Ohio so unless you’re doing your flight mid- to late summer when any corn crops could potentially be 6-7’ high, altitude isn’t a big factor. Unlike when I did mine with NOTRA on our field and needed to keep it low and slow and out of the corn! So rather than a big, heavy 4” crayon rocket like I used there’s plenty of great choices - just about any LOC, Madcow, Binder, SBR, DG&A, etc 3-4” kit with a sturdy fin design (per Art Upton’s post) will work fine. IMO it’s a good idea to keep your apogee visible, keep things simple - the Jolly Logic Chute Release is a good option, if you do enough practice with it so as to be confident in your technique - there’s plenty of time for dual deploy and other electronics without adding extra “stuff” to your qual rocket. But that’s my way of looking at it - plenty of folks have done full-up dual deploy and high altitudes on their L1 qualifications - however you go the biggest factor is practice, practice practice! Know your rocket, the techniques your comfortable with and your field - keeps the stress level low.

Good luck!

 

[Zeus-cat]

I'm the club treasurer for WSR. If you can, just come to eRockets some Tuesday night when WSR has our weekly club meeting. We start 3:30 or 4 and run until at least 8:30. We meet at eRockets and that is about 1 mile west of the US Air Force Museum. We have helped countless people get their L1. Our high-power field is just southeast of Cedarville.

We ask everyone launching high power to join WSR. A membership this late in the year will be automatically extended through 2024. If you are a NAR member it is $10 for the year and we never charge launch fees. You can get a high-power rocket kit from Randy at eRockets and a cert motor from Lee of Merlin Missiles who attends nearly every WSR meeting and nearly every WSR launch.

Please note that the December 12th meeting will be our annual Christmas party and no rocket building will take place.

TMO is another option. Lee attends their launches when he is able, but WSR always takes precedence. You will need to consult the TMO website for their fee schedule, but we are the bargain in the area. Their launch field is about 10 miles from ours.

 

[Zeus-cat]

Let me add that WSR is a NAR club and you can certify NAR L1 at our field. If want to go Tripoli you will need to use TMO, or make special arrangements to have someone from Tripoli attend our launch to certify you.

 

[Wrightme43]

Wildman has the 3" journey 75 L1 cert rocket in fiberglass for a very fair price. I got the upgrade fiberglass nosecone, and aerotech metal motor retainer. It was a very straight forward assembly, and flight.

My L1 cert went very smoothly with it.

Second flight on a I180 due to the JLCR tether wrapping around the shroud lines, it fell from 2386' with only the chute protector as a streamer. It hit the ground, directly on a tail fin, and made a very loud THONK. There was no damage.

I scraped the dirt out of it, built a H130 motor and launched it again.

Super nice rocket, slightly heavy, but very tough.

I understand why he sells them so low. It really does pay to introduce someone to the quality of fiberglass.

I am building a Giant Leap Talon 2" right now.

 

[Art Upton]

I will point out using a rocket like the Estes Majestic to test the Chute release on with 29mm E motors is the best practice for it and did not have any issues when I didn't fold the parachute correctly but went back to the video and watched better on how to do it.

Learn from the videos on how to use the chute release by the maker

 

[dpower]

If you like scale, go for it! A 4" Patriot is a great L1 build. Don't worry about L2, by the time you get there, you'll probably want to build something different anyhow.

 

[bjphoenix]

How much altitude will you tolerate?
I think a 4" rocket such as the LOC IV is a good candidate for L1 but there are very many on the market depending on how complicated you want to be and what your budget is. I suggest using motor ejection for L1 to keep it simple and this allows you to use a simpler rocket kit. Then I would build something bigger for L2 to keep the altitude under control. People do put real big motors in real small rockets and usually manage to get them back. If you are really set on using the same rocket for L1 and L2 then you will need to get a more complicated kit that allows for dual deploy, again I'll say 4" minimum diameter.

 

[MarsLander]

Welcome to TRF!!!

I used to live in Anderson Twp...loved my time there...

My thoughts (no particular order):

1. Always build something you like. You can find A LOT of scale rockets in a L1 kit.
2. There are 1000s of ways to get into high power. In a simple form, for L1/L2...
   1. L1 Simple. $ Nose deploy cardboard body and ply fins. Binder Design Excel is an example. $70 kit, can put a 29 or 38mm reload and fly Hs and Is. You can get it in 3" or 4". 4" is perfect for level 1 and can be 38mm or 54mm motors and you can fly on H-K motors. https://binderdesign.com/store/3-inch-kits.html
   2. L1/L2 $$ Single deploy/Dual deploy capable cardboard body and ply fins. The LOC patriot you posted is an example of this...has a booster and payload section. Binder Design 4" Excel XL Dual Deploy is the same. With the LOC Patriot, you can single deploy L1/L2 (with complexity of a chute release), or you can single deploy L1, dual deploy L2. Again 4" is nice size and can fly on G-J motors.
   3. L1/L2 $$-$$$ Single deploy/Dual deploy capable Fiberglass body and Fiberglass fins. Something like the Wildman Standard ARM. Wildman Standard ARM Same basics as option 2, but in fiberglass.

I am not making recommendations on kits. I'm trying to share "levels/options" by using examples.
I would use these examples to help you answer some questions for yourself.

• Do you want to test the waters, or are you all in to L2?
• Do you want to use the same rocket for L1/L2 or build 2? (I would suggest 2...the learning curve isn't "steep" but there is a lot to learn, and the point of the levels is to use your experience to learn more).
• Motor ejection vs. alternative (dual deployment).
• Are you comfortable with all fiberglass?
• How much money are you willing to spend? Rockets, motor casings, reloads, electronics and associated expenses can add up quickly with dual deploy/electronics/large motors etc.

Watch the motor specs on the kits to see if they allow the range you are looking for...Would be nice to have one you can fly MPR to learn, then load a HPR motor for certification.

Good Luck, Have Fun!

 

[bad_idea]

I'd recommend building a rocket you'll want to keep flying, so start with asking yourself what you like to fly, what you want to fly when you certify, and also what you can realistically fly given airspace and recovery concerns.

 

[86mustang408w]

I would suggest the first thing you do, is find a club and look at that spot. Watch them fly, and see how they are doing and where they are landing. You may want a very heavy rocket and a small H motor, or you may have room and use an I. Build the rocket and pick the motor for that field....

The debate of keeping a cert flight simple, low, and slow. Well I cannot agree with that philosophy more. I've seen quite a few recently that either used too small of a rocket, too big of a motor, and even used DD on a L1 cert flight. Theres nothing wrong with any of that, except keep in mind for a cert flight everything you add is one more thing to go wrong, and the higher and faster you go, the more it complicates it. I have one, but I would even avoid using a chute release too if you don't need it....

The look on the Face of someone who just spent months working on a DD(dual deployment),minimum diameter L1 cert rocket, as you watch them walk off the shovel to go dig it out. That is not one you want to have on your face after a cert flght. Keep it VERY simple, low and slow. And don't be afraid to overbuild your cert rocket, they can go from good to bad fast...


A good L1 cert rocket is a 4" diameter one, about 5 feet long, and 4 or 5 pounds w/o motor. I'd really suggest the Apogee Zephyr for you. Its 38mm, its a great L1 cert rocket, and you can fly it on G80s for shakedowns before that H or I motor. You can buy a 38/29mm Aeropack adapter, or LOC Precision sells them cheap you can make. Thats another company too look at L1 birds.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, take notes, and take pictures/videos so you can look later. Your head will be spinning as your prepping your rocket while they launch an M motor. Keep calm and walk strong...

 

[b.wieting]

LOC Mini-Magg. Low and slow!
Especially the robust revised design with thru-wall fins.
(And after cert, you can easily insert a LOC av-bay to go dual-deploy).

Ok, I am biased--L1 w/ Mini, L2 w/ Mega-Magg....

 

[Jeff Curtis]

Wildman has the 3" journey 75 L1 cert rocket in fiberglass for a very fair price. I got the upgrade fiberglass nosecone, and aerotech metal motor retainer. It was a very straight forward assembly, and flight.

My L1 cert went very smoothly with it.

Second flight on a I180 due to the JLCR tether wrapping around the shroud lines, it fell from 2386' with only the chute protector as a streamer. It hit the ground, directly on a tail fin, and made a very loud THONK. There was no damage.

I scraped the dirt out of it, built a H130 motor and launched it again.

Super nice rocket, slightly heavy, but very tough.

I understand why he sells them so low. It really does pay to introduce someone to the quality of fiberglass.

I am building a Giant Leap Talon 2" right now.

I bought the Wildman Drago 75 for my L1 at their sale yesterday. I have the Loc Semper Fi as backup.

 

[thzero]

Should have used search on high power topic... Lots of threads and recommendations.

 

[thzero]

LOC Mini-Magg. Low and slow!
Especially the robust revised design with thru-wall fins.
(And after cert, you can easily insert a LOC av-bay to go dual-deploy).

Ok, I am biased--L1 w/ Mini, L2 w/ Mega-Magg....

Ok. I have a micromagg, and like it. And it would have worked just fine as a level 1.. I routinely run it on h128s... Granted jolly logic helps a bit.

But low/slow that gets paraded around as general rule of thumb is just nonsense. Fly the field and conditions, and that may require low. And yeah, a ultra high flyer probably isn't best idea on the other hand.

I'll say because the fields allowed, my L1s was 2500', and my l2 was 4200' (oh and on DD).

If you know what you are doing because it's not something completely new on the cert flight, then more power to you.

It's not like if you have a bad flight you can't try again.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Hi everyone, I've been a rocketeer for about 3 year total staying in the mid power arena and looking to finally move to high powered rocketry. So I would much appreciate recommendations for a rocket kit that will get me to level 1. If it can also get me to level 2 that would be great and I like scale rockets kits. Was looking at the Loc P4" Patriot kit... any thoughts?

There’s nothing wrong with that. I would suggest picking out a rocket that you like, that will fly on a G motor. Fly it until you’re very comfortable with it and then put an H in it. That’s really all there is to it.

 

[techrat]

A lot of people recommend the Apogee Zephyr. I built one, and I think it's too big and heavy for a L1 cert. I may save that for my L2. A LOC IV, just about any 3" rocket if it's built well, the T-LOC, the SBR Fusion, and any other half-decent 3" or 4" rocket will work fine. I mean, L1 isn't that hard, all the rocket has to do is go up and come back down, preferably, all in one piece. People have done their L1 with DBRMs.

As soon as it gets warm again, I have a BMS 3" School Rocket that I'm doing my L1 with. I've already flown if many times on F and G motors, so I've got a pretty good idea of exactly what I'll get with any baby-H. It's been built as good as I can build it, so it'll survive almost anything. I even had a G go CATO on one launch and rip apart my shock cord, but the body tube and payload section are fine. I patched the shock cord with some orange paracord, and it's ready to fly again.

I quasi-glassed the body tube and fiberglassed the fins. Unless it goes lawn-dart into concrete it's not getting damaged.

 

[Back_at_it]

A lot of people recommend the Apogee Zephyr. I built one, and I think it's too big and heavy for a L1 cert. I may save that for my L2. A LOC IV, just about any 3" rocket if it's built well, the T-LOC, the SBR Fusion, and any other half-decent 3" or 4" rocket will work fine. I mean, L1 isn't that hard, all the rocket has to do is go up and come back down, preferably, all in one piece. People have done their L1 with DBRMs.

As soon as it gets warm again, I have a BMS 3" School Rocket that I'm doing my L1 with. I've already flown if many times on F and G motors, so I've got a pretty good idea of exactly what I'll get with any baby-H. It's been built as good as I can build it, so it'll survive almost anything. I even had a G go CATO on one launch and rip apart my shock cord, but the body tube and payload section are fine. I patched the shock cord with some orange paracord, and it's ready to fly again.

I quasi-glassed the body tube and fiberglassed the fins. Unless it goes lawn-dart into concrete it's not getting damaged.

If you have room to launch and recover a 3" BMS rocket on an H motor then by all means do so. That is a great rocket but it's flirting with 3000ft. on the smallest H motor you can buy.

I prefer fat and draggy rockets for cert flights. Personally, I feel the Zephyr and LOC IV to be the absolute minimum I would fly for a cert flight but that is based on the room I have to recover. I flew a LOC Warlock for my level 1. Lately I've been seeing a lot of 4 inch T-LOC's, 5.5 inch Minie Magg's and a couple of I-ROC' s. All fly low and recover closely with simple motor deploy.

As we discussed on another thread, I fly my Minie Magg on an H219 on a regular basis. This would qualify as a level 1 flight and peaks arounds 900ft.

 

[Rocketclar]

Lots of good recommendations above. My goal during all my certs was to certify on the first attempt, which I did. Build knowledge and experience with each flight and talk with lots of people about it. Over the years I've learned a ton of stuff by watching and talking. There's also a lot of knowledge available here on TRF! All my mentors have been great! And at launches now I pass my experiences on....
I found that there are no shortcuts in HP. I, too, made many of the rookie mistakes (which have been described in threads here.) I would recommend a more rugged design that can take a less than ideal landing. Most failures in certs have to do with recovery issues.
Good luck and have fun!

 

[DigBaddy]

Build a BT60 Goblin and put a H115 in it.




This is sarcasm.

 

[b.wieting]

Ok. I have a micromagg, and like it. And it would have worked just fine as a level 1.. I routinely run it on h128s... Granted jolly logic helps a bit.

But low/slow that gets paraded around as general rule of thumb is just nonsense. Fly the field and conditions, and that may require low. And yeah, a ultra high flyer probably isn't best idea on the other hand.

I'll say because the fields allowed, my L1s was 2500', and my l2 was 4200' (oh and on DD).

If you know what you are doing because it's not something completely new on the cert flight, then more power to you.

It's not like if you have a bad flight you can't try again.

All true points. Yet for me, "field conditions" include a 5hr RT drive to Lucerne, so I was strongly biased toward get-it-right the first time. Besides that, even at Lucerne I've come close to losing G-powered rockets when I momentarily took my binos off them, so it was good to have a big rocket to find.
Then I discovered Eggtimer! Indispensable in finding my WM Blackhawk38 (even when I didn't blink).

 

[Back_at_it]

All true points. Yet for me, "field conditions" include a 5hr RT drive to Lucerne, so I was strongly biased toward get-it-right the first time. Besides that, even at Lucerne I've come close to losing G-powered rockets when I momentarily took my binos off them, so it was good to have a big rocket to find.
Then I discovered Eggtimer! Indispensable in finding my WM Blackhawk38 (even when I didn't blink).

Not to mention, Who wants to walk a mile to recover.

Send it up, retrieve it the send another one. Not looking for exercise in my hobby

 

[Aeva]

Regardless of what you get, check if the assembly instructions are well written or there is other available documentation. I got a LOC EZI65 for my L1, and the instructions were garbage. Tbf, you should have plenty of building experience if you're going for an L1, and I was already making changes to my kit that didn't follow the instructions, but it definitely helps put your mind at ease.

Honestly, if you can find a simple and durable rocket, you'll be fine. If you can get one that's draggy, that'll help keep your apogee low and minimize risk of damage. However, the heavier it is, the harder it will hit the ground if something goes wrong. It was mentioned before too, but avoid rockets with fins that extend below the aft of the rocket; if your rocket comes in a little fast it's going to have more impact force on landing, and if you have long flexible fins, they might be less resilient. Anything you can do to hedge your bets in favor of a successful launch, do it. (edit) Another good suggestion is to use DMS motors for your cert flights. They're simpler (just modify the adjustable delay, add a washer, pour in gunpowder, plug it and you're ready), and that will eliminate CATO from user error. If you're using a motor mount adapter, check that it fits (I had an issue because the 38mm DMS motor had a weird nozzle that didn't work with the MMA. I improvised by doing a friction fit, but that was a first for me so I was taking a risk).

Also, one thing that I caught before my L1 was a low TWR. Since I glassed my EZI65, it was heavier than the base kit, and the motor I bought for it originally was insufficient (I115, it had like a 4:1 TWR iirc; the club would have outright rejected it because 5:1 is the minimum "safe" TWR). Wait until you have built the rocket and then go to thrustcurve.org and find something that has like a 10:1 thrust ratio. I ended up with an I175, which has a 7:1 ratio when loaded into my EZI, but I lucked out and had absolutely no wind during launch so it didn't weather cock or anything.

 

[bad_idea]

Build a BT60 Goblin and put a H115 in it.




This is sarcasm.

Paging @SolarYellow . . .

Assuming a tracker, familiarity with said tracker, and airspace and recovery zone that permit such a flight, I see no problem with that plan. I'd glass the fins, probably do tip-to-tip for extra flutter insurance (and me being me would glass the tube too, just for durability over time), and bring it down on a streamer. A quick modification of @K'Tesh 's Goblin sim shows that with the mass of a tracker and battery in the nose and the added drag of say an extra mm added to the fins for fiberglass, a Goblin stays below Mach 1 and goes just over 1km on the H115, probably a good bit less once the mass of the fiberglass were added too.

Edit to add: I forgot at the time that the Goblin was BT55 and we were talking about an upscale. In BT60 would definitely stay below 1km on the H115.

That sort of flight on a small airframe wasn't what I did (though my L1 actually went about as high though not as fast), as I repurposed a 3" test rocket for my L1 (and L2 too), but if I'd been building an L1 cert rocket from scratch it probably would have been an I200 in a 38mm airframe or an I284 in a 1.9" airframe. Of course, where I fly (in the springtime anyway), we have room for flights like that. Many fields don't, and even if one likes high flights, if the field doesn't support it, it's a non-starter.

Not to mention, Who wants to walk a mile to recover.

Send it up, retrieve it the send another one. Not looking for exercise in my hobby

I can use the exercise, but I've also been known to cheat and drive instead. Helps if you have friendly and super-hospitable locals who eagerly share their four-wheelers.

 

[SolarYellow]

Build a BT60 Goblin and put a H115 in it.




This is sarcasm.

Dang, I've been mulling over something almost exactly like this today. Might just have to do it. Oddly enough, it would be easier using 38mm power.

 

[bjphoenix]

Build a BT60 Goblin and put a H115 in it.

There are a lot of people who like things like this. I've heard people in my club talk about putting all manner of big motors in things like the Big Daddy. These days I like to keep the rocket in sight so I'm pretty conservative, or boring however you want to look at it.

If you have room to launch and recover a 3" BMS rocket on an H motor then by all means do so. That is a great rocket but it's flirting with 3000ft. on the smallest H motor you can buy.

I prefer fat and draggy rockets for cert flights. Personally, I feel the Zephyr and LOC IV to be the absolute minimum

I went with the LOC IV with first launch using an H123. Some people looked at it and called it a "lob" as if it would barely get off the rod but I thought it flew pretty well. The rocket has also been flown a number of times with I motors.

Regardless of what you get, check if the assembly instructions are well written or there is other available documentation. I got a LOC EZI65 for my L1, and the instructions were garbage

I've been building LPR for a long time. When I started buying LOC kits I didn't even look at the instructions, I knew how to put the pieces together. I made modifications to incorporate my own baffle design for motor ejection, my own shock cord mount using eyebolts, and my own motor retention using T-nuts. I have 5 rockets capable of mid power and high power, 2 were kits but 3 were scratchbuilt using LOC parts.