LDRS 33. 2014??

[BBrown]

Btw when will the Airfest event page go up ? :wink:

Soon! Within the week!

 

[BBrown]

Not to pile on Chuck but when I see stuff like what Bob has posted I think, "Boy am I glad we got a bid this year."

Folks,

If it looked like I took a shot at Chuck, that impression was absolutely not intended. I responded to Chuck's post because he raised a valid question.

Al was dead on a couple of points! Hosting an LDRS is getting tougher and tougher. Not the putting on the launch, but listening to folks complain before, during, and after the launch. This takes a toll on each club's "core group" making it unlikely (or less likely) that they would want to bid on another one. I predict in the very near future, there will not be an LDRS some year. The work is hard. The rewards are small. Life is too short.

 

[DAllen]

Folks,

If it looked like I took a shot at Chuck, that impression was absolutely not intended. I responded to Chuck's post because he raised a valid question.

Nope, that's not how I saw it at all Bob. I made that "piling on" comment because I thought my post may be perceived as "piling on." Your response was very appropriate IMHO.

Al was dead on a couple of points! Hosting an LDRS is getting tougher and tougher. Not the putting on the launch, but listening to folks complain before, during, and after the launch. This takes a toll on each club's "core group" making it unlikely (or less likely) that they would want to bid on another one. I predict in the very near future, there will not be an LDRS some year. The work is hard. The rewards are small. Life is too short.

BINGO.

Maybe we shouldn't have an LDRS for a year or two. Give all the non-volunteer folks that piss and moan about the location, date and "low" waiver a chance to show the rest of us how it's done.

 

[Green Jello]

I fully understand why the fliers would not want Discovery there. My question was why you thought they wouldn't be there THIS year. I doubt they care what inconvenience they are causing if the show they are producing has proven to be profitable for them in the past. Was there some formal request or something?

 

[BBrown]

I fully understand why the fliers would not want Discovery there. My question was why you thought they wouldn't be there THIS year. I doubt they care what inconvenience they are causing if the show they are producing has proven to be profitable for them in the past. Was there some formal request or something?

Dave,

The contract between the TV folks and Tripoli has not been renewed. The launch organizers for LDRS 32 put in their bid to host LDRS that if a new contract was signed, they had the right to back out of the bid. There has been no discussions of a new contract. They will not be at LDRS 32.

Bob Brown
Tripoli BoD member

 

[Green Jello]

Ok cool. Other than not getting to see Kari, that sounds like a win all the way around.

 

[mcderek]

Has anybody tried to tie launch pad access to volunteering? You get a pad assignment after you sign up for some volunteer duty.

 

[nh4clo4]

Has anybody tried to tie launch pad access to volunteering? You get a pad assignment after you sign up for some volunteer duty.

Interesting concept. How about a "reduced rate" if you sign up for at least one shift, and the full rate if you do not?

 

[H_Rocket]

We have discussed that for several large launches. Thing is:

OK, you sign up and get a discount. Then when your shift comes up, you are out recovering a rocket, or waiting to fly. etc. Then what? Do we bill you? We took the approach in the past that if there was a shortage of range people at a certain time, we just stopped flying. Then we would not start up unless people who had not yet done something stepped up.

There is also a group of folks who honestly believe that if they help set up in the morning that is their part and they are clear for the day. I for one don't agree. There is a world of difference in spending a half hour or so in the morning and giving up an hour or so of prime flying time.

 

[bobkrech]

Chuck,

It's more than a large enough field. Much more!

I've been the launch director of two LDRS's (27 and 30) and have been a part of the planning and execution of two more so I have a bit of insight into this process. Preparing a bid to put before the Board of Directors is the easy part. The execution of that plan is the tough part. When the Kloudbusters were preparing to bid on LDRS 30, planning started about 16 months before the launch. First we contacted our land owners and asked them if they were comfortable with several thousand folks homing in on their private property for six days of rocket flying. Anything but a definate "Yes" is a non-starter. We are fortunate to have some of the finest land owners in the hobby. Even so, they wanted to be sure that everyone cleaned up after themselves.

Then it's off to find a host hotel who can house everyone and supply a banquet hall big enough and a meal at a reasonable cost. Oh BTW, the Tripoli BoD wants a meeting room for a couple of days and the hosting prefecture is to cover that. Then you develop a website, provide a way for folks to register online, design a LDRS T-Shirt and find someone who is willing to print them at the last minute so that you either don't run out or are left with a ton of extras.

Next you need to arrange for 22 porta-poties with clean outs every other day, trash bins and dumpsters on site (Larger than normal if the guys from Nebraska plan on flying something! ) Food vendors and vendor parking round out the rest of the pre-planning.

Notice none of this talked about how to "carry out" the launch. At LDRS 30, we put out 65 pads (excluding the 8 set aside specifically for the TV folks). We are fortunate we have the pads, launch control system, cables, rods and rails to do so. Not many clubs do.

If all of this seems daunting, this is the easy part! The man hours involved with planning, setting up the range, running it, and tearing it down after the launch is mind boggling. I think it takes about 980 man hours to just man and run the range during those six days (Thank you to all of you who have volunteered to help us over the years. For that, I am deeply thankful.) There were a core of eight to ten of us that worked literally hundreds of hours making the event seem like it just happens. For those of you who think that an LDRS just happens, that's our goal but it couldn't be further from the truth. Everything takes more effort than you can believe.

BTW, from 90 days before the launch until the day before, someone has to answer all the questions about the launch. Here's a couple you should never ask the hosting prefecture. "When will the big rockets fly? (Correct answer, "Right after "THREE . . . TWO . . . ONE. . .), What's the weather going to be like? (If the weather men never get it right, what makes you think we would do any better?) and finally, "I know pre-registration ended two days ago, I planned on registering but forgot, can I get the pre-registration rates?" There is no good way to answer this one because the flyer always gets mad when we say No!

So, why does a club do it? While I can't speak for the other clubs who have hosted an LDRS over the years, we, the Kloudbusters, do it so that we can share our field, infrastructure, and waiver with all of our rocketry friends from around the world. If it wasn't for the people, we would never do it!

This is a bit early to announce, but the Kloudbusters have started working on the bid for LDRS 65.

Bob

PS: If you go to LDRS this year do three things for me. One, volunteer for at least one shift of anything. two, pick up all your trash and just a bit more. And three, at the end of the launch, go seek out the launch organizers and then thank them for all their hard work. They deserved it!

+1000. Just got back from a very successful URRF 1, and all those points are fresh in my head. I've been on the organizing committees for URRF, NARCON 2010, NERRF 3, and NEMROC 2005-2009 and gave hands on support to LDRS 31 and NARCON 2009. Bob, you nailed every point. A successful national event needs a committee of 10 dedicated individuals who will spend individually up to or over 500 hour in the preceding year to make it work, and another 1 to 2 dozen go-to guys you can count on during the days before and during the event to pull it off. A regional event need 6 or so on the committee willing to work over a 6 month timespan and about 1 dozen go-to guys, and a local event not much less but over a 3 month time span. For URRF we had a committee of 7 self-motivators who busted their butts over the past 6 months to make sure that we had everything we needed on-hand, and had contingency plans incase anything went wrong. It was hard to get volunteers to staff every position, and I was the mod roc/L1/L2 RSO and RB for much of Sunday and we still managed to have no lines or delays (~110 launches in 4.6 hours till the storms rolled in and ended the launch.). While you P.S. points 1 and 2 may be difficult to fulfill, it was great to universally get point 3 which makes all those hours worth it.

 

[JStitz]

Has anybody tried to tie launch pad access to volunteering? You get a pad assignment after you sign up for some volunteer duty.

Derek,I'm positive this has been done in the past with a "Gold Pass". The volunteers were allowed to move to the front of a flight line.
This was especially important to the core group to get at least ONE damn flight in...I'm sure it was complained about and quietly died.
One thing I have noticed is WHY does ONE club have to take all the burden?
LDRS 15 was hosted by at least 5 or 6 clubs with a rotating volunteer schedule.It was in SC but had several Florida clubs as well as NC and Georgia.

You know...the labor unions have a "Sargent at Arms" (or elected Asshole if you will) ALL complaints should be directed to them.:wink:

John Stitz

 

[DAllen]

One thing I have noticed is WHY does ONE club have to take all the burden?

That's an easy question to answer...because all clubs do things differently enough that it doesn't work to work together. Inevitably, no matter how you organize it folks in one club are going to feel slighted because they did .0001 sec more work than the other club. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. :confused2:

I've done a joint launches before with another club on a much smaller scale than LDRS and it is not as easy as it may appear. Try it sometime.

 

[jimzcatz]

Dave,

The contract between the TV folks and Tripoli has not been renewed. The launch organizers for LDRS 32 put in their bid to host LDRS that if a new contract was signed, they had the right to back out of the bid. There has been no discussions of a new contract. They will not be at LDRS 32.

Bob Brown
Tripoli BoD member

YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MClark]

Ok cool. Other than not getting to see Kari, that sounds like a win all the way around.

We have better Redheads, we do not need her.

M

 

[jimzcatz]

We have better Redheads, we do not need her.

M

You can never have too many redheads..... I'm just sayn!!!

 

[Nessalco]

Dave,

The contract between the TV folks and Tripoli has not been renewed. The launch organizers for LDRS 32 put in their bid to host LDRS that if a new contract was signed, they had the right to back out of the bid. There has been no discussions of a new contract. They will not be at LDRS 32.

Bob Brown
Tripoli BoD member

Kinda funny - it was never discussed with the membership the *first* time. It was presented as a fait accompli, and all protests were ignored.

Kevin O

 

[freddiejojo]

Kinda funny - it was never discussed with the membership the *first* time. It was presented as a fait accompli, and all protests were ignored.

Kevin O

Hi Kevin,

I was prefect of the Kloudbusters in 2003, when we held LDRS at Argonia with the first Discovery filming. I'll be straight up honest with you, to say it was tough would be an understatement, essentially there were two LDRS launches running concurrently at the same time. And what Discovery has been doing since that first filming cannot hold a candle to then. The infastructure they needed, the number of people on site and equipment necessary was immense. They also produced three shows from that launch. Without the help of the core Kloudbusters, the Kloudbuster BOD (Gary McKnight, Bob Brown, Chuck Mies, Lance Licktieg, Dennis, Jim Cooper, Jay Bailey and so many others I cannot remember), I would be in a grave on that field now, and nearly dug a hole anyway.

That said, to those of you involved at that time, please remember the excitement and intensity having them entailed. I can still remember watching the forums "blow-up" over conversations about the events planned, how folks wanted to be involved and the great hope and excitement people had about how Discovery would put us on the map (remember, the events of 9/11 and the Aerotech fire were only two years in the past) and we still had the "hob-nailed boot" of the ATF on our neck trying to put the entire hobby out of existence (and would carry on for more years afterwards). Frank Uroda of PML was given a lifetime achievement award from Tripoli for his work providing product and getting TV commercials made and purchased for national broadcast on the Discovery Channel in conjunction with the airing of the three shows from LDRS/2003.

Was there discontent? Sure, and probably most from the people mentioned above and others doing the dirty work. But we smiled and did it with skill and determination. Did Kloudbusters, Tripoli, the surrounding farmers and landowners profit? Yes (from the launch). Did the hobby as a whole profit? In my opinion, yes. Do I wish Discovery would gear their filming to what we actually do instead of dreaming up stuff that only makes us look stupid and unsafe? Absolutely, in my opinion.

It was the national Tripoli BOD who made the call and the vast majority of the membership then were for having Discovery there as well. As prefect then, I supported their decision, still do, but would appreciate it if you would not call me if it is to happen again.

Kent Burnett/Kloudbusters

 

[JimJarvis50]

Hi Kevin,

I was prefect of the Kloudbusters in 2003, when we held LDRS at Argonia with the first Discovery filming. I'll be straight up honest with you, to say it was tough would be an understatement, essentially there were two LDRS launches running concurrently at the same time. And what Discovery has been doing since that first filming cannot hold a candle to then. The infastructure they needed, the number of people on site and equipment necessary was immense. They also produced three shows from that launch. Without the help of the core Kloudbusters, the Kloudbuster BOD (Gary McKnight, Bob Brown, Chuck Mies, Lance Licktieg, Dennis, Jim Cooper, Jay Bailey and so many others I cannot remember), I would be in a grave on that field now, and nearly dug a hole anyway.

That said, to those of you involved at that time, please remember the excitement and intensity having them entailed. I can still remember watching the forums "blow-up" over conversations about the events planned, how folks wanted to be involved and the great hope and excitement people had about how Discovery would put us on the map (remember, the events of 9/11 and the Aerotech fire were only two years in the past) and we still had the "hob-nailed boot" of the ATF on our neck trying to put the entire hobby out of existence (and would carry on for more years afterwards). Frank Uroda of PML was given a lifetime achievement award from Tripoli for his work providing product and getting TV commercials made and purchased for national broadcast on the Discovery Channel in conjunction with the airing of the three shows from LDRS/2003.

Was there discontent? Sure, and probably most from the people mentioned above and others doing the dirty work. But we smiled and did it with skill and determination. Did Kloudbusters, Tripoli, the surrounding farmers and landowners profit? Yes (from the launch). Did the hobby as a whole profit? In my opinion, yes. Do I wish Discovery would gear their filming to what we actually do instead of dreaming up stuff that only makes us look stupid and unsafe? Absolutely, in my opinion.

It was the national Tripoli BOD who made the call and the vast majority of the membership then were for having Discovery there as well. As prefect then, I supported their decision, still do, but would appreciate it if you would not call me if it is to happen again.

Kent Burnett/Kloudbusters

Kent, as someone who came (back) into the hobby as a direct result of those shows, you have my thanks and appreciation. If not for folks like you, and like Bob and Mark, I would not have shreaded nearly as many rockets as I have. That's a good thing (I think)?!

Jim

 

[freddiejojo]

Kent, as someone who came (back) into the hobby as a direct result of those shows, you have my thanks and appreciation. If not for folks like you, and like Bob and Mark, I would not have shreaded nearly as many rockets as I have. That's a good thing (I think)?!

Jim

Jim,

We are richer by having you and all the others who came into Tripoli. Kevin aired an honest opinion and there are plenty who agree with him. I just wanted to play the "way-back machine" providing another piece of the puzzle.

Finally, everyone contributed and everyone profited in some way.

Kent

 

[Nessalco]

Kent, as someone who came (back) into the hobby as a direct result of those shows, you have my thanks and appreciation. If not for folks like you, and like Bob and Mark, I would not have shreaded nearly as many rockets as I have. That's a good thing (I think)?!

Jim

Jim, I left TRA as a result, so it's a wash.

Kevin

 

[Nessalco]

Just re-read my last post, and note that it could be construed as a criticism of the crew that put together the events where DC was present. In no way, shape, or form did I mean to do so - the folks with boots on the ground, doing the work and taking the crap have nothing but my deepest regard.

KO

 

[belfert]

LDRS can be done at a smaller site, but there are limits to how small a site can be for LDRS. I was at Geneseo for LDRS there. That site wasn't real big, but the site we have locally is even smaller. Our site can have maybe 75 cars at a launch. I was also down at LDRS 2000 in South or North Carolina and they had cars parked on the roads everywhere.

 

[Dave Reynolds]

I hope it's back in Kansas. It's right in the middle of the country and they really do a good job hosting LDRS's. by middle of the country I mean located right in the center of the USA.

 

[BBrown]

I hope it's back in Kansas. It's right in the middle of the country and they really do a good job hosting LDRS's. by middle of the country I mean located right in the center of the USA.

This isn't going to happen!

 

[Threemorewishes]

This isn't going to happen!

I hope the KloudBusters host LDRS again in the not too distant future as LDRS30 was epic. You guys and gals could easily (and should) write the book on how to run an event like LDRS.

 

[cwbullet]

I will discuss it with our prefect for the future. The problem we have is our waiver is only 10,000.

 

[DAllen]

I will discuss it with our prefect for the future. The problem we have is our waiver is only 10,000.

Who cares at this point? I think we could have fun with a 10k waiver. If you have the room for the parking, enough pads and enough volunteers I'd say go for it. I'd be tempted to go to an LDRS in South Carolina!

Oh, all the folks who would love to see another LDRS with the Kloudbusters why no just attend an Airfest? I will...someday. Can't this year since my big rocket trip has already happened with URRF. The wifey does not like more than one big rocket trip in a single summer.

 

[blackbrandt]

Heck, an LDRS in SC, I would stay 4 days!!
I wouldn't mind a 10K waiver!

Matt

 

[jimzcatz]

Guys, unfortunately this will never happen again. This has been discussed with the Triploli board. Industrial encroachment prohibits the kind of launch that will draw hundreds of fliers and spectators. There has been a lot of development since the last LDRS Orangeburg hosted.

 

[cwbullet]

That is what I suspected and the reason for the lower waiver. I, too, would love to have an LDRS in the southeast.