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suppose it doesn't really matter what causes the gas station closures if there's no gas available for 2-5 days after a major storm. Let's also not forget that the people preparing for a storm tend to buy a lot of gas, which can run stations dry even before the storm hits. And sometimes it takes a while to recover, even from a non-hurricane storm. Take this case in FL for example. There were widespread gas shortages a week after a relatively local storm, and the state was expecting shortages to continue for another week.

This isn't correct. There will be gas available 24 hours after the storm, for 24-48 hours until pumps run dry, or the station generators do. The problem occurs in distribution afterward, 2-3 days after the hit, and it can be bad.

After (Hurricane) Sally, I drove from North Pensacola to Crestview (70 miles), just to get gasoline, and I did it every other day for five days. There is no significant infrastructure in place for EV's in this area.
 
Scandalous! And willfully misinformed!

Let's go to the Federal Register note in question:
While DOE did not expressly incorporate scarcity in the 1999 NOPR and the June 2000 Final Rule, DOE added the current 1.0/0.15 fuel-content factor, in part, to help address scarcity issues by rewarding electric vehicles' benefits to the Nation relative to petroleum-fueled vehicles, in a manner consistent with the regulatory treatment of other types of alternative fueled vehicles and the authorizing legislation. Id. at 65 FR 36988. DOE explained that it chose the 1.0/0.15 ratio for the fuel-content factor (1) for consistency with existing regulatory and statutory procedures for alternative fuel vehicles under 49 U.S.C. 32905, (2) to provide similar treatment of all types of alternative fueled vehicles, and (3) for simplicity and ease of use in calculating the PEF. In the July 1999 NOPR, DOE examined 49 U.S.C. 32905, which prescribes procedures for determining the petroleum-equivalent fuel economy of non-EV alternative fueled vehicles. DOE noted that two of the most common light-duty liquid alternative fuels at that time were M85 (85 percent methanol and 15 percent unleaded gasoline by volume) and E85 (85 percent ethanol and 15 percent unleaded gasoline by volume).[6] Under section 32905, the petroleum equivalent fuel economy of E85 and M85 powered vehicles is determined by dividing the measured fuel economy value by 0.15. DOE also noted that section 32905 extends this approach to gaseous fueled vehicles (e.g., compressed natural gas), whereby a conversion factor is applied, and the resulting figure divided by 0.15 to obtain the petroleum equivalent fuel economy. DOE commented in the July 1999 NOPR that the true energy efficiency of both liquid and gaseous fueled alternative fuel vehicles is intentionally and substantially overstated by the methods specified in section 32905, since only 15 percent of their actual energy consumption is accounted for in determining their petroleum-equivalent fuel economy, and that the use of the 0.15 factor for both vehicle types provides a similar regulatory treatment to both types of alternative fuel vehicles. DOE then determined to include the 1.0/0.15 factor into its PEF calculation, noting that this would be the most equitable approach among alternative fuel vehicles and that all alternative fuel types help the Nation avoid having all its transportation “eggs” in the petroleum “basket.” Id. DOE noted, however, that EVs would still enjoy favorable regulatory treatment under DOE's proposal because EVs are exempt from caps on the amount alternative fuel vehicles are allowed to contribute to raising a manufacturer's overall fleet fuel economy. Id. at 65 FR 36989.

So what actually happened was that the corn lobby won a major victory circa 1990 and EVs and natural gas powered vehicles rode on the coattails. Under the law passed by Congress, ethanol- and methanol-fueled vehicles only had to count 15% of their fuel consumption because only 15% of their fuel was petroleum-based. Never mind that the vast majority of E85 vehicles run on the normal E10 at the local gas station. 1/0.15 = 6.67, just in case it isn't clear. Natural gas and electric vehicles were given the same treatment to treat all alternative-fueled vehicles the same way.

And now that EVs are a non-trivial percentage of vehicles sold, DOE is updating that fuel economy number to correctly model their performance.

As for "lacks legal support," that's a kind of interesting one. The law in question (49 USC 32905) does not specifically address EVs. However, it does address dual fuel electric/liquid fuel vehicles, which get a fuel consumption factor that matches the percentage of their total usage that comes from liquid fuel. So if you wanted to follow the spirit of the law, you'd divide the mileage by zero since an EV consumes zero liquid fuel. Of course, that's silly even for bureaucrats, so they used 0.15.

An alternative reading of the regulation is that back in 1990, the DOE assumed that all EVs travel 15% of their miles on gasoline because that was easier and it didn't really matter in the grander scheme of things. Now that it matters, they're correcting their work. I know, this counts as a massive scandal in WSJ-world, but it doesn't seem so bad to me.
 
However, it does address dual fuel electric/liquid fuel vehicles, which get a fuel consumption factor that matches the percentage of their total usage that comes from liquid fuel. So if you wanted to follow the spirit of the law, you'd divide the mileage by zero since an EV consumes zero liquid fuel. Of course, that's silly even for bureaucrats, so they used 0.15.
I believe the issue is comparative CO2 emissions per mile, over the lifecycle of the vehicle, not how much liquid fuel is used. There would be needed a fuel mix assumption needed for that multiplier and an agreed to CO2 debt assumption on production of the each type of vehicle respectively.
 
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Gas stations will be up and running long before power will be. At least that's my experience from Superstorm Sandy. I never had a problem getting gas (was always able to find it on the way to or from work) but power was out at my house for 2 weeks. That's with being on a priority electrical line because it also feeds the high school which is our emergency shelter. My office had it back because it was on a major road without trees and 2 blocks from the substation.

I still don't get why the government is in the business of paying for charging stations that profit others. When was the last time they paid to put in a gas station?

However, there are those for whom EV is the sunrise and sunset. Good for them. I hope they enjoy them, honestly. Just don't force them on me. maybe in the future battery technology will advance to the point that changes my mind, but I'll tell you that battery will not be a lithium technology.

I'm willing to bet it's a small percentage of Americans.....
1. You have to own a house so you can put in a charger, or have convenient access to one (eg at work or close enough to work to hoof it
2. Not have an job or hobby where you burn down the road (hmm, METRA is 2 hours away and has no charger)
3. Want to drive a sub-compact car (ok there are cybertrucks and rivans, maybe lightnings) but I don't fit into any other Tesla because 6 feet tall and not skinny
4. Probably not in a climate that's cold (unless you own a charger)
5. Maybe not so good in places with maximum capacity of electrical distribution (say California in the summer)
6. Don't mind longer trips broken up by recharge time (although this may decrease driver fatigue)

we have a couple of hundred gallons of gas capacity, it's part of our emergency plan. And way more at the firehouse, and a way to duck off in our utility trucks to refill....... but no plan for EVs other then to push them off the road. You'll NEVER convince me that they are superior to a ICE in an evacuation. Even if there are functional chargers the line would be enormous. AND there are none on the rest area that my department serves.
 

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I believe the issue is comparative CO2 emissions per mile, over the lifecycle of the vehicle, not how much liquid fuel is used. There would be needed a fuel mix assumption needed for that multiplier and an agreed to CO2 debt assumption on production of the each type of vehicle respectively.
Ayup. That's what the notice of proposed rulemaking says that DOE is doing, dropping the 0.15 multiplier and going to something that represents the actual power grid. One interesting side effect of this is that the car companies will get a higher credit for EVs as the grid becomes more carbon-independent, so car companies will have incentives to green the grid.

For ethanol dual fuel vehicles, the multiplier was specifically about how much petroleum fuel the vehicle was designed to use (ie 15% for an E85 vehicle). If they had to follow the same rules as EVs, they'd have to use a percentage based on what people actually put in their E85 vehicles, which is certainly far less than 85% ethanol. Different rules for different alternative fuels. I guess that's the value of the corn lobby and having Iowa being the first caucus state.
From EPA's own website the CO2 emissions of an EV is not 6X less but about 2.5X less. So the multiplier is actually is closer to the 65mpg the article mentions. And in Chicago about now its about equal, assuming the EV's actually find a way to move. I'll go with the EPA.

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https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/comparison-your-car-vs-electric-vehicle
You're saying all of this like it's a surprise. It's not a surprise to anyone involved. The 15% rule was put in place when EVs were a small niche of a niche market. Now that it's a significant fraction of the industry, the rule is being updated. The NPRM that the WSJ is complaining about is the first step in updating the rule to be closer to reality.

The Code of Federal Regulations is full of old regulations. For example, I can point you to rules for maintaining wood-hull oil tankers built prior to 1948. The USCG doesn't delete the rules even though there's no boats that fall under it because it's a hassle to update the CFRs. Now imagine having to do it when the WSJ is pretending that there's a giant conspiracy happening here.
 
If we're burning coal to power EV's I seriously doubt the CO2 numbers.
It may shock and amaze you, but not all power in the US is generated by coal. My home utility, for example, is nearly entirely hydopower and claims to be carbon neutral. I'm not entirely sure I buy that, but there you go. There are numerous studies out there on equivalent mileage, often broken down by state, occasionally by utility. Feel free to google them. You might even find links to parts of this or other threads that discuss the same topic.
 
Not all power is indeed made from coal - agree.
TOO MUCH IS.
Places like China where it's HUGE and so are EV's......
Clearly if you charge off solar or hydro you're down on the emission scale, but much of the world can't make that claim.
Only 20% of power comes from "renewable" sources.........is 80% dirty power used in those CO2 calc's????
 
Not all power is indeed made from coal - agree.
TOO MUCH IS.
Places like China where it's HUGE and so are EV's......
Clearly if you charge off solar or hydro you're down on the emission scale, but much of the world can't make that claim.
Only 20% of power comes from "renewable" sources.........is 80% dirty power used in those CO2 calc's????
As stated on the linked page in @jderimig 's graphic, it's based on the national grid fuel mix. That one even includes the emissions involved in building the car in the first place, so it's ahead of some of the other calculators out there.
 
Making the EV CO2/fuel multiplier more realistic is actually terrible news for the consumer and the automobile industry. A multiple of 6 or my choice of 10 is the only way the industry can provide the cars the market wants and satisfy the upcoming fleet emission rules. If the multiple is reduced to reality the auto industry goes bankrupt or the upcoming EPA auto emissions rules gets 'modified'. I am betting on the latter but no dismissing the former.
 
Who's telling the people with Tesla's in Chicago that they don't know what they experienced?

What people?
A few fools who ran their batteries down to near zero?
A few fools who ran out of gas on the side of the road?
The above two pools of folks come from the same gene pool.


We just saw a real-time test performed under real-world conditions by and it didn't come out well.

Yeah, and I saw an SUV abandoned on the side of the road during a snow storm. I therefore should conclude that "it didn't come out well in real-world conditions"?
Bad assumptions lead to foolish conclusions!

I saw on the internet today that the severe cold would reduce the charge by 30%. I don't know how accurate this is but it seemed low to me. I thought the design of the Tesla took care of this in that the car has systems to manage the temperature of the battery. When you come out of your office and get in the car the battery is probably cold but after driving a few miles it should be warmed up to operating temperature and you would have your full range back. If what I've seen about the Rivian is correct it doesn't have the ability to do this.

You are right on the cold weather impact WITHOUT pre-heating. Pre-Heating requires rudimentary planning ahead, which seams beyond the ability of a minority of folks.
Pre-heating does consume some energy, thus a higher energy depletion range when temps are far outside of optimal LiOn battery operating range. In my 10+ years of EV experience, energy consumption penalty starts when temps drop below 20F, and grow somewhat linearly as temps dip below 0F. Same goes for when temps go above 90+F. I never tested it above 105F, but AC is working at full blast to chill the interior and the battery above C-note level.

It’s only useful if there’s a comparison. How many ICE cars were unable to start because the battery and/or block got too cold? Without that, it’s a human interest story, not data.

True story from a call at work yesterday - a customer build-out project had to be postponed because the two diesel powered trucks would not start when temps hit sub-10F in Helena MT. Apparently diesel fuel freezes when it gets too cold.

Winter is a challenge.
Those who prepare do just fine.
Those who don't serve as warning for others on the evening news.

HTH,
a
 
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What people?
A few fools who ran their batteries down to near zero?
A few fools who ran out of gas on the side of the road?
The above two pools of folks come from the same gene pool.




Yeah, and I saw an SUV abandoned on the side of the road during a snow storm. I therefore should conclude that "it didn't come out well in real-world conditions"?
Bad assumptions lead to foolish conclusions!



You are right on the cold weather impact WITHOUT pre-heating. Pre-Heating requires rudimentary planning ahead, which seams beyond the ability of a minority of folks.
Pre-heating does consume some energy, thus a higher energy depletion range when temps are far outside of optimal LiOn battery operating range. In my 10+ years of EV experience, energy consumption penalty starts when temps drop below 20F, and grow somewhat linearly as temps dip below 0F. Same goes for when temps go above 90+F. I never tested it above 105F, but AC is working at full blast to chill the interior and the battery above C-note level.



True story from a call at work yesterday - a customer build-out project had to be postponed because the two diesel powered trucks would not start when temps hit sub-10F in Helena MT. Apparently diesel fuel freezes when it gets too cold.

Winter is a challenge.
Those who prepare do just fine.
Those who don't serve as warning for others on the evening news.

HTH,
a
Diesel does not completely freeze... The wax component comes out of solution and that causes the fuel filters to block at low temperatures. Winter diesel has a higher proportion of shorter chain length hydrocarbons which permits the wax to stay dissolved in them at lower temperatures. There is a limit to that as very low temperatures will demonstrate. This is why you have electric tank heaters and block warmers in very low temperatures.
If the whole system is allowed to get too cold, it's difficult to come back from that.
It's also difficult for a battery that is extremely cold to come back from that state too. It takes a while for half a ton of battery to reheat to a temperature for safe charging.
There are issues on both sides, they're just technical challenges. They can be overcome.
Battery technology WILL change. Hang on... It's going to be a bumpy ride.....
 
Based on that Article, Diesel #1 contains no wax and won't gel up.

Another article: " Diesel 1 For Winter Driving

Diesel 1 is a premium class fuel courtesy of its all-weather performance. It lacks components like paraffin, which crystallizes in low temperatures, resulting in a difficult cold start. Diesel 1 will flow flawlessly; hence the engine starts without any problems."
 
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Perhaps easy to plan, easy to pre-heat IF (big if) you own your own home, installed a charger, and you still have power at home.
That's what percentage of owners and more importantly, potential owners?

The rest are condemned to sit in charger lines with chargers that can't charge quickly in the cold and abandoned cars in line.

Makes me think of the gas lines of the early 80's, only self-inflicted.
 
Perhaps easy to plan, easy to pre-heat IF (big if) you own your own home, installed a charger, and you still have power at home.
That's what percentage of owners and more importantly, potential owners?

The rest are condemned to sit in charger lines with chargers that can't charge quickly in the cold and abandoned cars in line.

Makes me think of the gas lines of the early 80's, only self-inflicted.
I love my Teslas, but if I couldn't charge at home I wouldn't own one yet. But being able to charge at home, for the millions of people that fit that category, well let me tell you, it's wonderful. Every day I leave with 250 miles of range. Everyday my car is conditioned automatically before I leave. And, my next car will be able to power my home in the event of a power outage. In fact, it should be able to power my home for a week easily, 2 weeks if I turn off a few things. The longest I have ever been without power was 8 days, and that only happened once in 2012 when I learned a new word... "Derecho".

Just want to add, if the owners in Chicago had not let their batteries get low, they still could have avoided this situation. The car can use some charge to heat the battery if needed so that it can supercharge at normal speeds, but if you let the battery get below 20% that is no longer a possibility. Just dumb people, and a media that is alway eager to try to hurt Tesla and generate clicks.
 
Just dumb people
People don't know S**T about electrical things - just witness the questions we get here.
Assuming people know how to care for a poorly documented things like cold-weather battery survival is crazy.
John Q. Public is too stupid and/or too lazy.
 
People don't know S**T about electrical things - just witness the questions we get here.
Assuming people know how to care for a poorly documented things like cold-weather battery survival is crazy.
John Q. Public is too stupid and/or too lazy.
Well, all I can say to them is...

giphy.gif
 
People don't know S**T about electrical things - just witness the questions we get here.
Assuming people know how to care for a poorly documented things like cold-weather battery survival is crazy.
John Q. Public is too stupid and/or too lazy.
Also, if we had a decent media, anyone of the 100s of news articles on this story could have educated people so that fewer would repeat the mistakes, but unfortunately preventing human foibles isn't in the news media's financial interest.
 
People don't know S**T about electrical things - just witness the questions we get here.
Assuming people know how to care for a poorly documented things like cold-weather battery survival is crazy.
John Q. Public is too stupid and/or too lazy.
Apparently, so is knowing that you need to change your oil in ICE cars. Ignorance is fuel-agnostic when it comes to cars.
 
I good friend of mine used to say that you can abuse a car and you can neglect a car, but you can't do both.
I think the neglect part does not apply to EV's.
Hence a whole new world for most car owners.
 
I good friend of mine used to say that you can abuse a car and you can neglect a car, but you can't do both.
I think the neglect part does not apply to EV's.
Hence a whole new world for most car owners.
Oh, you can 100% both abuse and neglect cars. And from personal experience, it's not that hard to neglect an EV since they require so little maintenance anyway.
 
Based on that Article, Diesel #1 contains no wax and won't gel up.

Another article: " Diesel 1 For Winter Driving

Diesel 1 is a premium class fuel courtesy of its all-weather performance. It lacks components like paraffin, which crystallizes in low temperatures, resulting in a difficult cold start. Diesel 1 will flow flawlessly; hence the engine starts without any problems."
You've got to have it in your tank. You don't need deisel #1 till it's cold and before it's cold it's more expensive.
 
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